@Tai_MT Final Fantasy VII: What is still confusing you?

[Tai_MT]

You have to remember, I never made it out of Midgar because the plot was so convoluted and mindlessly boring.  I've seen bits and pieces of the rest of the game through my friend playing it.  If stuff was explained somewhere in the game, and I didn't see it, I don't know about it.  It also doesn't help that when I've asked people before to explain the plot to be, they've often just went "It's hard to explain, you need to play it".

A lot of my confusion about the plot simply arises from the contradictions I've seen or the missing gaps that I didn't see.

I got to the point where the game asked me to retrieve batteries to open to the hatch to the surface.  At that point I said, "I'm 3 hours into this game, still running freakin' tutorials, and now I'm running a fetch quest" and just quit.

I've seen the ending of the game (I cannot lie that the whole meteor thing going through all the planets is freakin' awesome) and some of the stuff in between...  It's just all really confusing to me to piece together and nobody has ever really tried to explain to me what the plot of the game actually was.

On top of that, seeing "Advent Children" and playing that one game where you're the guy in the red coat shooting at things...  Yeah, that kind of just confused me even more.  Like, why is Sephiroth still alive at that point?  What are all the children for?  Why is Shinra suddenly attacking places for no reason?  Why has Cloud reverted back to "blood knight robot who now has a garden"?

Near as I could grasp the storyline for what I saw is this:

We start out playing as a bunch of terrorists who don't even know if what they're doing is going to work.  They kill innocent people (both from power outages and from the assaults on the generators) and generally cause havoc.  The guy I play as is like Squall... except less talkative and more likely to get laid.  I spend some time listening to Barret and wishing he got shot in the face so I didn't have to endure his character as he explains to me why we're blowing stuff up, when my character was "hired" to do it and doesn't care why (despite the three separate occasions where he's said he doesn't care what the job is, just wants paid... two of them to Barret).  So, we meet the flower selling lady and hang out with her for reasons that seem to just be a shoe-horned in romance subplot to give Cloud some personality beyond "I'm an emo kid, non-conforming as can be".  I got some flash backs of Cloud apparently going to fight Sephiroth and then we talk to Tifa who goes on and on about some memories that Cloud insists he doesn't have or even care about...  Then, we have to try to get to the next reactor!  So, we dress up Cloud like a woman (which was actually pretty hilarious, I enjoyed that bit) and get a keycard or some such off the rich perverted rapist (or is probably a rapist, the game kind of leaves it up in the air).  So, we need to get to this hatch and climb up a ladder to do it, but when we get there, we need some batteries or something or it won't open.  I quit right there.  I saw my friend play the part where Aeris dies...  I saw some part where we're told that the Sephiroth in the scene with Cloud at the beginning was some kind of clone or something...  Or he was Sephiroth, but he wasn't...  I saw some of the stuff at the Golden Saucer...  I saw some stuff where the weird cat thingie was a spy but also a robot (which is weird, and quite obvious, but maybe that was the point from the programmer's perspective?).  I saw part of obtaining the super intelligent dog thing...  I saw parts of where Sephiroth was talking about Genova and a bunch of his dialogue made it sound like it was a God, or the planet, or the planet God... or his mom... and some of the dialogue leaned a bit towards the "incest" part of the spectrum...  Then, I saw the final battle with Sephiroth and most of the ending.

Everything beyond that... Yeah, I have no clue.  From what information I do have (which is cobbled together from what I've seen, what I've played, or even what other players have talked about), it sounds like a really huge mess of a story that's 9000 times more confusing than trying to wrap your mind around string theory.

But, maybe I am just stupid.  I mean, I didn't really understand the plot of Final Fantasy 12 either (in which, we're playing badguys rebelling against a country that really hasn't done anything wrong, and the plot is meant to make sense?).

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Ok, so you didn't make it 5 hours into a 40+ hour game and you wonder why the plot doesn't make total sense?


I'm not saying you have to like the game, but most of these things are explained, you can't declare a plot incomprehensible when you haven't seen most of it.

 

[Tai_MT]

I can declare a plot incomprehensible when I ask people who played it what the plot is and they tell me "It's hard to explain, you need to play it".  I get the same responses for Assassin's Creed.  Plus, I'd already mentioned all of that in the original topic where I was complaining about the game, before you made this one.  So, basically, you made a topic just to try to explain a game to me that I didn't understand, after I'd already told you why I didn't understand it, and now you're trying to tell me that I'm not allowed to declare a plot incomprehensible after I reminded you why I didn't understand it in the first place.

How many games have you ever run into where someone couldn't explain the plot to you in a single paragraph and had to tell you to just play the game?  I've run into two.  Assassin's Creed and Final Fantasy 7.  Two games in the entire 20+ years I've been gaming.  I didn't understand the plot of Final Fantasy 12 and someone explained that to me in a single paragraph so that I knew what was going on (I didn't understand the plot after 40+ hours into the game, but someone managed to explain it to me.  I got something like 3 hours into Final Fantasy 7, didn't understand the plot at all, and people were telling me that basically the only way to understand that plot was to play the game as it couldn't be put into words, which is odd for a game that expresses its story with text.).

Honestly, I'm just coming away with more and more questions as you guys explain to me what the plot was.

Like, okay with the energy source stuff...  Why drain the life of the planet?  Obviously things like Lightning exist, which means actual electricity exists outside of draining the planet's life force.  So... why isn't Shinra using other sources of energy instead?  Coal?  Hydro-electric?  Gas?  Natural Gas?  Lots of Chocobos running on hamster wheels to power generators?  Geo-thermal?  Solar?  Why does it have to be "Life Force of the Planet"?  I mean, we have technology in this world that allows ships to fly, missiles to exist, guns to exist, and all manner of other crazy things...  But, nobody has figured out how to harness any other form of power?  Not even Steam Power?  When you consider how little sense that alone makes in terms of just world-building...

Well, you start to see how a newbie with 3 hours under his belt can think and say that the plot is incomprehensible.  Because, well...  It kind of is.

 

[Eschaton]

I have to agree with Mai-Tai on the convoluted plot.  Yoshinori Kitase was hitting his plots with the Nolan Ray and the Shyamalan Ray before Christopher Nolan and M. Night Shyamalan ever did. 

 

[Touchfuzzy]

I didn't realize you had never actually played through the game. I can sum up Final Fantasy VIIs plot easily in one post, but I'm only going to be able to hit the high concept of the game (which is true of almost any game being described in a single post).


Final Fantasy VII has three major players:


1. Shinra Corporation: The Shinra Corporation is a company that wants to control the entire planet, and they want to do it at all costs. The cost to the planet doesn't matter, the cost in lives does not matter. They are corrupt and arrogant, and will do experiments on pretty much anything if they think it will get them ahead.


2. Sephiroth and Jenova: Jenova is a extra-terrestrial being that feeds on the life force of planets, eradicates its inhabitants, and then uses the dead planet as a vessel to travel to the next planet which wiped out the precursors to humans in the world. It was defeated and sealed away until Shinra found it. Sephiroth is a human/Jenova hybrid clone created by Shinra that went insane and is attempting to complete what Jenova started and use the life stream to become a god.


3. Cloud Strife and Co: Cloud is an ex-Shinra soldier (not SOLDIER) who has memory and personality issues stemming from experiments done to him using Jenova cells by Shinra after Sephiroth burned down his home town. After getting involved with Avalanche a freedom fighter/terrorist organization bent on stopping Shinra from destroying the world, he learns that Sephiroth is still alive and works to stop him from succeeding.


The story revolves around Cloud and Co. attempting to stop both Shinra and Sephiroth from screwing the world over, while Shinra attempts to follow Sephiroth to find the "Promised Land" an area rich with lifestream energy, which will allow them to create even more powerful weapons of domination.


After Sephiroth manages to obtain the Black Materia, a strong magical artifact capable of destroying the planet by calling a massive meteor down on it, Cloud has to finally face that something about himself isn't right, as Sephiroth was able to mind control him into giving it to him. In that moment of weakness, Aerith, the last of the human precursors leaves the party to summon up Holy using her White Materia given to her by her mother. She succeeds in summoning it, but is killed at the same time.


Cloud and Co find out that as long as Sephiroth lives, he can hold Holy back. During events at the North crater in the approach to Sephiroth, Cloud falls into the life stream, forcing him into his mind, where he slowly tries to make sense of his memories and who he is. Later, found catatonic by the rest of his party, he falls into the lifestream again with Tifa, a childhood acquaintance, who helps him regain his true self.


From there, the party deals with several other minor details, finally culminating in Shinra being destroyed while taking down the barrier Sephiroth placed around the Northern crater, giving the party a chance to descend into the caverns and face Sephiroth. After Sephiroth is defeated by Cloud, Holy is released, and the world is saved.

 

[Tai_MT]

And that, is probably the most comprehensive explanation of the plot I have ever gotten.  I didn't even have to play the game to get it.  Maybe if they ever remake the game and upgrade the graphics, I'll give it another chance.  If I give it another chance though and still have no clue what's going on, I will be back!  I will have questions!  I will probably destroy the nostalgia goggles too!

 

[EternalShadow]

FF12 very basic explanation: the government is corrupt, and the main guy has wronged some people. He has plans to destroy stuff, which we find out from the mini-bosses per story-based coincidence in our explorations. It then becomes the main character's party's task to stop the guy and his followers. (I haven't played it in SO long, I've basically forgotten the plot, but that was the gist of it, I loved the game)

Final Fantasy stories aren't often made to be understandable within just a few hours - they're the sort of game that feeds you bits of information as you go along, and then unveil the whole grand plan at or near the end. Other examples include Beyond: Two Souls and Corpse Party.

 

[cane_danko]

so much controversy from a game that was made in 1997... i played it then and loved it. as far as the criticisms about the game i am seeing it just makes me laugh because people fail to realize the time this game as made the only games that were touching it as far as story were snes rpgs that were not near as complex. also the style of the game was reminiscent of akira and this was a truly awesome feat for rpgs at that time. the story had an awesome lore though it was not perfect (who would even expect it to be???). if you look at the final fantasy games before and after 7 then you will know why people appreciate it so much. the game had its flaws but so does every other video game in history. most of the "plot-holes" i am reading are just over criticisms and just not well thought out. "but cane... i don't want to read in between the lines on an rpg... i want to be told every thread of lore in a way that is not boring or takes me out of immersion." ok. so use your imagination. books have been making readers do that for centuries so why would video games be any different?

 

[Tai_MT]

One problem with that argument.  Books actually don't make most readers "read between the lines" and the characters themselves often offer some sort of explanation, even if the actual explanation is beyond their comprehension (one need only read anything by Lovecraft to see this in action).  The problem is, most books tell a story far better than any video game.  The comparison between the two is like apples and oranges.  Different mediums, my friend.  Plus, authors aren't usually strapped to hard deadlines and have to work with 100 or more other people to try to make their story work.  Most authors write a story, have someone in their publishing company read it, provide feedback, maybe have parts of it rewritten or reworked so that it makes sense, have it proof-read, and then published when all the other nonsense is taken care of.

Also, if you want an example of "complex is not good", let's go look at Final Fantasy 8.  Complexity in a story does not immediately make a game good, make a story better, or make an experience more enjoyable.  In fact, the more plot threads and mysteries an audience has to hold onto, the more confused they will be, and the more irritated they end up by the end of it all.  That isn't to say complexity is bad, either...  It's just that there's kind an art to storytelling.  As you go along, you need to systematically solve some of the mysteries and plot threads so by the time you get to the Final Act, you've got only a single thing to concentrate on.  It also helps in World Building if you can keep your audience from asking a hundred questions about why your world works the way it does.  An explanation of "It's just magic" or "It's a fantasy setting" are not good one.  These questions that an audience may have are what keeps them from getting immersed.  They are barriers to a Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

With Final Fantasy 7...  I can see that a lot of the people who heap praise on it were fairly young at the time.  It's much easier to accept the answer of "just because" and "don't think about it too hard" when you're young.  When I finally played Final Fantasy 7, I was almost 17.  Much harder for me to just simply accept the plot and move on.  I had questions.  I had concerns.  I had issues with the narrative.

It's also funny that you compare the game to Akira...  Which, while praised as one of the reasons any kind of market ever opened up in America for anime...  Is fairly often criticized for making no sense and being pretty poor anime experience altogether.  It was groundbreaking...  But also not that great.  I guess if that's the comparison you want to make with Final Fantasy 7, I won't stop you.  Personally, if I were to compare what I experienced with Final Fantasy 7 to an anime, I'd have picked something like Trigun.  Especially in terms of mood and/or setting.  But, that's just me.

Let me say one last thing about Lore...  It doesn't have to be "perfect", so long as there is an explanation in game about why it is not perfect.  Corrupt Church.  Corrupt Government.  Too much time has passed.  Unreliable Narrator/Characters.  Etcetera.  If your Lore isn't perfect because your writers didn't know how to do their job...  Then, it becomes a detriment to your game or your book.  Basic World Building teaches us, "okay, why does this exist and how does it affect the world in a logical and rational way?"  The Lore in my own game is written this way.  I can't expect it to be "absolutely perfect", no, but I at least have in game explanations for why it might not be.  No, that isn't to brag.  It's just to tell you that it can be done, and from what I've learned, it should be done.  These explanations remove roadblocks to the "Willing Suspension of Disbelief".  You want to see how bad Lore can really derail a player?  Go look up "The Spoony Experiment".  Look up his review of Final Fantasy 13.  In the first 10 minutes of gameplay, he completely destroys the Lore of the game and the Willing Suspension of Disbelief with his very basic questions.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

With Final Fantasy 7...  I can see that a lot of the people who heap praise on it were fairly young at the time.  It's much easier to accept the answer of "just because" and "don't think about it too hard" when you're young.  When I finally played Final Fantasy 7, I was almost 17.  Much harder for me to just simply accept the plot and move on.  I had questions.  I had concerns.  I had issues with the narrative.

That you saw less than a tenth of. You can't play a tenth of something and then be surprised that there are a lot of questions unanswered in the story. You were still in the introduction of the game! Almost everything you are saying was unexplained was EXPLAINED IN THE GAME ITSELF IF YOU BOTHERED TO PLAY IT LONG ENOUGH. You've admitted that you never even rescued Aeris from the Shinra HQ. You were like, 4-5 hours into the game. Its a 40 hour game! And that is for someone who knows the game and isn't exploring much. That would be like watching the first 10 minutes of a movie and then declaring it incomprehensible and shutting it off!


And I take the age thing as completely the opposite: The story was understandable by people who were very very young, provided they actually played the whole thing.


And seriously, I wasn't that much younger than 17 when I played it the first time. I was 13 when the game came out, and, not to try and brag, I wasn't a typical kid when it came to my reading level/comprehension (the first time I read Jurassic Park, I was 7).


The thing is, the whole setting up of FFVII, the whole Midgar section, is made to make you ask questions about things. Who is Cloud, what are the voices in his head, why is Aeris important, what is Shinra trying to do with her? Turning off the game before the questions are answered doesn't make the game incomprehensible.

 

[cane_danko]

@tai... you say books do not require readers to read in between the lines... the phrase actually comes from reading books. Literal meaning that what is often written is not what is explicitly meant. i won't turn this into a rant but i disagree with almost all of what you said. as far as complexity in story... look at game of thrones. it is very complex and often confuses people but it is arguably the most popular fantasy novel of our time. what you are trying to get at... (though talking around it) is that final fantasy 8 lacks execution. meaning the complexity of the story does not deliver in the final product. story telling is not some line of code or some math problem that has to be done in some kind of sequence to get the desired effect. in fact it is faaaaar from this.books and movies are different mediums than video games obviously but that is missing the point. they both share the same weakness when it comes to plot holes which is what this entire thread is about. as far as your critique of akira... smh... and for the last part of "the spoony experiment" i would never read a review of a game when the person only plays the first 10 minutes of the game. i have never played final fantasy 13 though i know that it deserves more justice than some guy pulling the rug out from under it from just playing the intro. in fact i would bet that there are plenty of people who love final fantasy 13 (some even more than 7). does that make them wrong? it means people have different tastes. and given what you have said i assure you that our tastes are vastly different.