Tank Threat Management

[omen613]

Hello all,

To spark up a convo I would like to hear your opinions on threat management for Tank characters (characters that take damage for the team and protect squishy characters.)

Should threat be very easy to accumulate for tank characters? like one skill gives you 1000% TRG for the battle and there is no chance of of an ally stealing threat from the tank? Maybe a passive state even if this is a favored route. This makes it so players can focus on just doing the max damage from the get go and the healer just has to keep the tank alive to make sure the group doesn't die.

Should threat come in waves and have to be managed till the next wave. 

Example: You have a visual display of each character's threat (TP maybe.) And your tank has a provoke skill that gives him like 50 threat and he can't use provoke for another 3-5 turns. During those 3-5 turns the rest of the party has to make sure they're threat level doesn't exceed the tanks threat level in fear of taking high damage. 

Should threat be be managed through use of combos. Where if a tank uses skill A one turn followed by skill B on next turn they gain a 10000% TRG buff that lasts for 1~3 turns (random maybe?) and they need to keep using combos in order to maintain a  decent degree of threat. Different combinations can be done to still generate the TRG buff so it's literally not just A > B over and over. maybe A > C, B > C > D (consumes some resource) to give a super threat buff that lasts 3~5 turns.

Should threat be a one turn only situation and an ally can help you maintain threat on other turns. 

Example: Tank uses provoke to give him 1000% TRG till the next turn and can't use provoke for another 3 turns. So he takes all the damage this turn from foes but the next two turns is random selection. A (Rouge?) character on the 2nd turn then uses a skill that gives target ally 1000% threat this turn (distract?) and can use it on the tank to make sure the tank takes the damage this turn as well. so now just the 3rd turn is a random target and the tank can use provoke on turn 4 and start the process over again. Could be interesting if the enemy is casting a powerful magic attack that takes a few turns to charge, and the healer has super high magic defense and the rouge gives the healer the 1000% TRG for that turn to soak up the magic attack.

Which method of threat control do you prefer? How do you manage threat in your game (if it uses a tank character?)

 

[kerbonklin]

Your second bolded threat style takes my vote. Something like saving your threat-increaser on a tanky actor for when it's really needed is a great strategy.

What i've done in my own project for threat/aggro is having the TGR check first, and then a special check that will make enemies attack actors who attack it previously. Magic in my game takes multiple turns to perform, and a caster getting hit has a chance to stop the spell from happening. So you must use your non-casters to steal aggros/threats and keep them safe while they cast.

 

[whitesphere]

I think it really depends on the specific enemy.  For example, if your party were fighting an animal or other instinctual creature, whoever does the most damage would draw the max target rating --- and would keep it for awhile.  So, say you're fighting a Yeti which is a strong animal in your game.  The Tank does a lot of damage which enrages the Yeti, so the Yeti starts beating on the Tank, ignoring the Rogue who is sneaking up for a backstab, or the Healer who keeps the Tank alive.

If you were fighting a smarter opponent, said opponent might even look to see who is the greatest threat.  For example, if a Healer is in the party, a smart opponent would focus on taking out the Healer unless the opponent were taking too much damage.  And a smarter opponent would change its Threat assessment each turn.  It might even "average" the Threat assessment over time.

So, let's say your party is taking on a smart wizard.  The wizard would know full well the Healer is the greatest, indirect threat, and would target him.  The wizard might even try to determine elemental weaknesses (i.e. rotate through elemental attacks until one "sticks" more).  But if the Tank does enough damage, the wizard might focus on him for a round.

Basically, a smart opponent tries to find and exploit the party's weakness.

So, I think, ideally, the strategy for managing a tank threat depends on the intelligence of the opponent.

 

[omen613]

@Kerbonklin

So if a character has never attacked a foe it wouldn't special check them at all? Just TRG? like a healer for instance.

@Whitesphere

Interesting and pretty complex design there. So if the smart wizard it going to go for the healer right off the bat the healer is going to spend the first few turns healing themselves till the tank can do enough damage hopefully before the healer dies. Could see the tank having an ability that has a long cool down that does high damage to a foe if the tank doesn't have the highest threat to help in these situations.

And as for the animal attacking the highest damage output... in this scenario no other character should be out damaging the tank for this strategically work correctly. For fights such as this...what would a glass cannon(Mage) character do? Wait till the foe has less than 50~33% HP then blast it for a finishing blow?

 

[Curia Chasea]

I think it really depends on the specific enemy.  For example, if your party were fighting an animal or other instinctual creature, whoever does the most damage would draw the max target rating --- and would keep it for awhile.  

If you were fighting a smarter opponent, said opponent might even look to see who is the greatest threat.  For example, if a Healer is in the party, a smart opponent would focus on taking out the Healer. 

If this was true, MOBA games like League of Legends or DOTA would always focus the support, while the tank would never receive even one hit from them.

Threat is not generated by role but by the fact how disrupting someone is to you at the moment. If you are a magician and I have a healer backing me - you would say the healer is more important to kill. However if each time you try casting anything, I slap you in the face - preventing your magic from happening, then you will try doing something about me being so close to you. 

-to the meat of the discussion now-

First rule of any game mechanic is consistency. If something is supposed to taunt all enemies into attacking you - it should always do that, regardless of enemy types. The only counter to this would be enemies that "cannot be taunted". Those enemies are usually automatic weapons, like turrets that follow a constant logic that you cannot affect. In that case however you show the player "Immune" when you taunt so they recognize this problem. 

Should threat be very easy to accumulate for tank characters?

Should threat come in waves and have to be managed till the next wave?

Should threat be be managed through use of combos?

Should threat be a one turn only situation and an ally can help you maintain threat on other turns?

*****************************************

Which method of threat control do you prefer? How do you manage threat in your game (if it uses a tank character?)

1-4 = All are an arbitrary decision. You will probably receive lots of opinions here, but just keep it in mind -> those are opinions. There are no hard rules for how you perform Threat Generation in skills. 

Now as to the question Nr 5 that is not bold. How to manage threat in games? 

It always depends on the game. PvP games handle threat a lot differently than PvE games. I'll just speak for PvE games for now though and clearly Single Player only (since Multiplayer handles this differently as well).

Remember that the player controls more than one character in RPG Maker games. This means you should not overload the kit of the chosen Tank. The taunt skill should work in a simple way - its used - TRG Increases. If the skill is unreliable - players will probably just opt for the tank to attack instead. Unless you create a problem by making the tank have bad skills for combat all together, so he's forced to use the ineffective taunt "since nothing else he does is worth it". 

The following is purely an opinion by Curia - do not take this as "best practices" or "ready solutions".

In case of my tanks, I usually ask the question of "well, I aggroed them - now what?" The tank is usually more satisfying in any scenario by having an option to do something after he focused enemy attention. Long ago I made an RPG with a "Defender" class. He had these skills:

- "Taunt" Makes all enemies target you for 3 turns.

- "Guard" Negates 30% of all damage received and prevents status effects till next action.

- "Magic Break" All magic spells deal no damage nor effects to you till next action.

- "Iron Wall" All physical attacks deal no damage nor effects to you till next action.

- "Flawless Counter" Any basic attack that carries no status effect will be negate and returned to the enemy for 250% of its damage.

- "Sanctuary" All damage done to the party is decreased by 20% and any killing blow would leave the ally with at least 1 HP. Works for 1 turn. 

- "Cover" Take damage instead of a chosen ally till next action.

The idea here was simple in itself. The defender after taunting the enemy would choose something to do. If he can taunt an enemy, he can choose one of the 4 "defense" options that react differently to enemy actions. Guarding against heavy status effects and mixed damage, two options for respective damage types and one counter skill for vanilla enemies. 

In case of not being able to taunt the enemy or facing AoE enemies - he could choose the full party buff that is also a massive shield against enemy annihilation abilities and one "classic" skill to protect an important party member. 

I know this might not be the answer you are looking for - but I rather focus on the part of "what do I do when I taunt the enemy" instead of focusing on aggro management here. It just creates more interesting choice in RPGs than thinking "wait, am I still generating threat?". Of course - this is just my opinion when it comes to RPG games. 

Multiplayer RPGs and PvP games have different rules for threat generation though... but I won't write an essay here right now. 

 

[whitesphere]

Something else to consider:  Is the Tank class an Offensive, Defensive or Mixed?  Offensive Tanks focus on raw damage-dealing and probably have high Defense but only for themselves.  Defensive Tanks may not be the damage dealer, but soak up damage intended for other party members, allowing the Glass Cannon wizard to continue raining down death. Mixed is what it sounds like --- may not be as hard hitting as the Offensive, or as good at protecting the party as Defensive, but has both options.

In Dragon Quest IX, the Paladin is basically a Defensive Tank.  He has about mid-line damage, but his biggest strength is Defensive Tanking.  In particular, he has one ability which basically is "Paladin takes ALL damage, magical or otherwise, intended for ANY party member."

This is a literal life saver, BUT if the opponent has powerful hit-all-party member attacks, well, the Paladin can be killed in 1 round.  But it adds to the strategic element.

That's just something else to consider.  Dragon Quest IX has Offensive Tanks (Gladiator), Defensive Tanks (Paladin) and Mixed (Warrior, I think).  This gives you more flexibility when creating your party.  Of course, it also lets you (eventually) learn a Skill to change any party member to any class, at any time not in combat.

 

[omen613]

@Curia

Thanks for sharing your defender class, seems like a solid tank character. I like the thinking of "now I got threat, what should I do with it?"

In battles with foes all being melee or magic seems like an unbeatable defense, but in battles with mixed foes you have to decide what's the bigger threat this turn, magic, melee, or AoE?

@Whitesphere

Thanks for bringing up the fact there are multiple tanking builds. For faster combat people tend to lean toward aggressive tanks that can help end the battle with their added damage. For longer more powerful hitting foes, thats where the Defensive tank shines even if he sonly brining low to mid level damage to the equation. 

This leaks into healer performance as well. The aggressive tank will be taking more damage and therefore require more healing resources to stay effective. Where a defensive tank will require less healing resources and allow the healer to perform longer and maybe even toss in some damage of their own with a lower maintenance tank.

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

What I do in my game is that I make specified class gear for all characters, in my game there are two characters in your party that can be built as a tank if you give them the correct gear,

What does the Tank gear have?

Tank gear that Tank able characters can wear will have more DEF and MDF of course but they will have less AGI (Due to tank gear being heavy to make it durable) and low ATK (Weapon) and to add some icing on these badass pieces of metal I add a little bit of TGR in the tanking gear just like 25% each piece so so they should have a extra 100% TRG which adds to 200% TGR than normal characters passively, the enemies will still attack other characters but they will most likely attack the tanks at times

The two characters that can act as tanks all have abilities that can raise their TGR even more to make their tanking capabilities better.

What does the Damage gear have then?

Damage gear have the exact opposite of tanks, being a damager means you have to be aggressive so lighter armor is essential when you want to get the best of your enemies, Damage gear will have less DEF/MDF but good enough to survive and since their armor is lighter to move more effectively they have more AGI along with more ATK (weapon) than the Tank weapon

Is it good to mix them?

The way I built it: "No" sure you can try and experiment on how to be a hybrid but you will just be losing a lot of damage that you need and you will be a very soft tank that can't agro enemies.

Personally when I was trying to make these two characters that has multiple role builds I had fun, I managed to experiment on how to make awesome tanks or awesome damage dealers with TGR, Heal% and other stats, just experiment and you can make a awesome system of agro.