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- Aug 11, 2018
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So this topic has been on my mind for the last week or so. I have been playing Chained Echoes and Sea of Stars and really analyzing them from a dev standpoint and really looking at what was right vs what wasn't vs what an RPG Maker Dev could do to compete with these masterpieces.
One main thing I zero'd in on, is providing players with a sense of agency. CE has Sea of Stars beat in this department, a lot of players have said SoS is a slow start vs CE is way more snappy and interesting. For me CE did an excellent job of provided you with a certain skillset, and then testing those skills by leaving us on our own. SoS was more so trying to hold the players hand for wayyy too long, explaining exactly what we had to do.
In SoS, I remember in one of the first dungeons, you have to find a key and before You get a chance to even survey the room the MC's calmly suggest "Maybe its in that chest up there, lets look", like wow, way to kill the mystery!
But to that point I realized...a lot of RPG Makers do this, but at nauseum, to the point the game is a "walking simulator", we are so hung up on telling our story that more times than not we just build OBSTACLES, tediously easy ones at that, and call it a game. However the player is left senseless mazes and locked doors just to read 47 message boxes of exposition. I think we are often too wrapped up in our characters to remember that our "dungeons" are a living asset itself with its own lore and design and should be built to give players a run for their money.
to kind of simplify this i'm saying in AA and AAA there are often areas that players get so LOST in conquering they forget what the story for that sections is even about and thats GOOD they're so invested in getting over the hurdle they don't realize its pulling the players immersion into YOUR WORLD even more. vs a bland space that has an annoying minor inconvenience or a broken set up that they can't WAIT to get past because its draining them.
for example, an obstacle to me is -
The MC finds the philosopher he's been searching for, we've already been through 2 dungeons with mazes to get to this point, and the Philosopher says if we want to know the truth, follow him, he'll be waiting inside, then walks through a door. You as the MC walk through said door and are met with your 3rd maze where you know the Philosopher is in there somewhere.
thats an obstacle, you've done it before, its now become tedious.
vs a challenge -
The MC finds that philosopher, we've already been through 3 dungeons with mazes before, HOWEVER the first dungeon had a poisonous mist that slowly drained HP because the plants that grew there, the second dungeon booby trap tiles that may fire dodgeable arrows (you can avoid with a QTE) when you stepped on said tile because it held valuable treasure.
The philosopher tells you to come inside the 3rd maze for the truth....but his patience is thin and he'll only wait 5 minutes before leaving again. When the player walks in the 3rd maze it has BOTH poisonous mist AND booby trap tiles because this dungeon has those same plants and an even more rare treasure, but ontop of that you have to navigate this place with a 5 minute timer.
this is a challenge, because now the player has to use the skills they've developed in 2 previous spaces to conquer a new place at a faster pace. Keeping health up and performing QTEs quickly while learning a large maze in a short time span. The player is forced to focus and when they beat it the feeling of accomplishment is what makes it memorable.
I just wanted to highlight this, and encourage others to speak on their perspective on challenging dungeons or even battles and highlighting some inspiring games. Honestly I just want to shift the conversation from great stories to great level design and challenges players minds.
TL;DR
RPG maker games (and rpgs in general) should really put more focus on making challenging dungeons instead of simple maps you walk through and find a key to move the story along. name some great dungeons from games you know or even challenging combat!
One main thing I zero'd in on, is providing players with a sense of agency. CE has Sea of Stars beat in this department, a lot of players have said SoS is a slow start vs CE is way more snappy and interesting. For me CE did an excellent job of provided you with a certain skillset, and then testing those skills by leaving us on our own. SoS was more so trying to hold the players hand for wayyy too long, explaining exactly what we had to do.
In SoS, I remember in one of the first dungeons, you have to find a key and before You get a chance to even survey the room the MC's calmly suggest "Maybe its in that chest up there, lets look", like wow, way to kill the mystery!
But to that point I realized...a lot of RPG Makers do this, but at nauseum, to the point the game is a "walking simulator", we are so hung up on telling our story that more times than not we just build OBSTACLES, tediously easy ones at that, and call it a game. However the player is left senseless mazes and locked doors just to read 47 message boxes of exposition. I think we are often too wrapped up in our characters to remember that our "dungeons" are a living asset itself with its own lore and design and should be built to give players a run for their money.
to kind of simplify this i'm saying in AA and AAA there are often areas that players get so LOST in conquering they forget what the story for that sections is even about and thats GOOD they're so invested in getting over the hurdle they don't realize its pulling the players immersion into YOUR WORLD even more. vs a bland space that has an annoying minor inconvenience or a broken set up that they can't WAIT to get past because its draining them.
for example, an obstacle to me is -
The MC finds the philosopher he's been searching for, we've already been through 2 dungeons with mazes to get to this point, and the Philosopher says if we want to know the truth, follow him, he'll be waiting inside, then walks through a door. You as the MC walk through said door and are met with your 3rd maze where you know the Philosopher is in there somewhere.
thats an obstacle, you've done it before, its now become tedious.
vs a challenge -
The MC finds that philosopher, we've already been through 3 dungeons with mazes before, HOWEVER the first dungeon had a poisonous mist that slowly drained HP because the plants that grew there, the second dungeon booby trap tiles that may fire dodgeable arrows (you can avoid with a QTE) when you stepped on said tile because it held valuable treasure.
The philosopher tells you to come inside the 3rd maze for the truth....but his patience is thin and he'll only wait 5 minutes before leaving again. When the player walks in the 3rd maze it has BOTH poisonous mist AND booby trap tiles because this dungeon has those same plants and an even more rare treasure, but ontop of that you have to navigate this place with a 5 minute timer.
this is a challenge, because now the player has to use the skills they've developed in 2 previous spaces to conquer a new place at a faster pace. Keeping health up and performing QTEs quickly while learning a large maze in a short time span. The player is forced to focus and when they beat it the feeling of accomplishment is what makes it memorable.
I just wanted to highlight this, and encourage others to speak on their perspective on challenging dungeons or even battles and highlighting some inspiring games. Honestly I just want to shift the conversation from great stories to great level design and challenges players minds.
TL;DR
RPG maker games (and rpgs in general) should really put more focus on making challenging dungeons instead of simple maps you walk through and find a key to move the story along. name some great dungeons from games you know or even challenging combat!
