The Nightmare of Copyright

[Levi]

Levi, all that proves is that a piece of mail was delivered, and that it was signed for. It doesn't prove WHAT IS IN THE MAIL.

Also, the onus is on the people claiming something works, not the other way around. Proving a negative is exceedingly difficult. Find one case where it ACTUALLY WORKS. If it did work, shouldn't that be easy to do?

That's fair. But, I'm not going to go out of my way to search for cases. So I suppose the argument is over. Haha. Does this mean I lose?

Edit: Just want to clarify... I never said that Registered Mail = Copyright. I was more talking about Registered Mail being used, in some means, in legal proceedings.

 

[Shaz]

I'll give you a straight forward answer.

dont worry about it. Not even a little. This is the RM community, not the big leagues. Even if there was a bit of copyright, you honestly shouldn't worry about it at all, nothing will happen.

I've got to disagree on this. Don't do it. Just don't. This IS the RM community, but THIS is the commercial forum. We're not talking about releasing games here, we're talking about taking a huge leap outside the community and releasing your games to the world, and asking for money for them. It's a whole different ballgame.

Giving something away is completely different to selling it, and some companies don't care one way or the other - if you're using their stuff, they will put an end to it. Some companies might only kick up a fuss if you are selling it. But you are taking a huge risk. At best, they'd never find out about it. A little worse, they'd order you to take it down, you'd have to go through all the trouble of replacing it with something else before you could release it again. At worst, you could take a big financial hit - and if you're only a small company, that could be devastating.

In addition, using something that's copyright doesn't only put YOU at risk. It can also cause a lot of problems for those who distribute your game. If THEY receive a "cease and desist" letter in regard to your game, they'll likely take it down immediately. But then they'll get a lot of flak from their customers who can't download it again after buying it. Do you think they're going to be keen to sell your next game?

However, I understand your original question is more in relation to something that's like something that has a copyright, not the actual copyright resource itself. Not so black and white. If it's something that's questionable, best to talk to someone who actually knows what they're saying, rather than accepting what we say here. I doubt many of us are well enough versed in law to be able to advise you, and most would only be giving our personal opinion. The law may change from one country to another anyway. But I bet if you search around a bit, you'll be able to find forums where lawyers are happy to advise for free.

 

[Lord Valdyr]

I'm not saying it's a guarantee but why not do this anyways?

 

[Dark Gaia]

On the topic of people thinking that sending yourself a registered mail will mean that you've proven your copyright to a work, this practice is called "Poor Man's Copyright" and it rarely, if ever, works. I'm a published author who has to deal with copyright and distribution rights for my books, and both my publisher and the professors in my university writing and editing course say keep telling me not to bother trying such a thing.

In most countries, and this includes the US, copyright lasts for the lifetime of the creator, plus 75 years, and this period begins automatically as soon as the work in question is a tangible form (ie. when your game actually exists as files on your computer) and no longer just an idea in your head. You don't need to "register" copyright - you're granted it as soon as you create the work. The only reason to register a copyright is to have proof that you're the original creator of the work in case you need to enforce your copyright in case of infringement. Most small devs shouldn't worry about doing this, since it's hard to prove if somebody has infringed your copyright and fight it unless you have a lot of money. Most small devs wouldn't be able to afford it.

For the record: sending yourself a copy of your work in the mail will NOT register your copyright. You already HAVE copyright to your work.

 

[mlogan]

Here's some information on why the registered mail thing is not likely to work. It's not saying you can't do it. And it does seem that it might be more likely to hold up in court outside of the US. But it is very easy to fake, so it's a risky thing to protect yourself. It's only $30 in the US to copyright your work. If you are going commercial, this is so little to invest to protect yourself. As the first link says, "A poor mans copyright could leave you even poorer, if that’s all you have as proof of copyright." TouchFuzzy's not trying to be a downer or rain on anyone's parade, he's just trying to help. If you're really wanting to go commercial, you can find $30 to protect yourself.

Also, I would think that if you're wanting proof of when you came up with an idea, something like a project thread here would be better. I have no clue how it might hold up in court, but it's something tangible that a judge could look at to see exactly when you had the idea in a medium that it would be hard to fake the date/time. But I'm not a lawyer so don't sue me if it doesn't work.

http://www.copyrightauthority.com/poor-mans-copyright/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_man's_copyright

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=41266

http://www.snopes.com/legal/postmark.asp

 

[Dark Gaia]

All that's usually required as proof of copyright is a date for when you created the work (and thus, when the copyright automatically began). Normally, registering your copyright is what provides this date, as they just use the date you registered your copyright on, but if you haven't done that you can still prove your copyright by providing a date to prove that you created the work at a specific time. My editor tells me (since I write books) that the "date created" line in the properties of my Word documents suffices. So, in that vein, I suppose that a project thread here, or even the individual properties of your game's Data files would suffice.

 

[TheCastle]

Any time this question has been asked on a shipping game the answer was always. "If you have to ask this question. change it anyway just to be safe."

Thats every project I have ever worked on ever that was the same answer we would always get from the legal team.

 

[Mouser]

An unopened letter with a federal seal and date can be used in court to prove copyright if you make something it is automatically copyright and an unopened letter proves a time period in which you had in your possession the material.The problem is there are ways to fake this depending on where you live. But if you are really worried then you might as well.

NO, it can't. That's a myth that has been in circulation for a long time.

The US Department of Copyright has a great FAQ clearly explaining the steps you need to take to protect your work. It isn't even a question of owning the copyright in most cases - it's a question of whether or not it can be enforced. If you haven't taken the time to register your copyright, then you have no standing to enforce it (speaking for the US). It's as simple as that.

It was $35 a work the last time I checked the site. You can bet that when I have a game ready to go all the code will be registered (as well any scripts or other resources I may make available to the community). It's not that expensive, not that hard, and worth it.

Remember, the "evil" copyrights that can make your life difficult when designing a game are exactly the same copyrights that can protect you if someone tries to rip you off.

Here's the link to the FAQ:

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

Edit: to go way back to the original post, Issues with things like game titles generally are trademark issues, not copyright. They are both forms of intellectual property (IP) - with patents being the third member of the trifecta, but the laws governing each of the three are very different. Patents offer the strongest protection but are the most limited in time - in this business you may come across them in the form of software patents, or patents relating to the "look and feel" of websites (see:Apple v. Samsung). Trademarks last the longest, but offer the least protection, and require action by the owner of the mark to keep them valid. Copyright falls somewhere in the middle, though the RIAA and MPAA are really trying hard (and generally succeeding) in strengthening laws and enforcement of copyrights.

It's not a bad idea to do a bit of research on this. Don't pretend to be a lawyer or think you know as much as they do, but a general understanding of the concepts will help you avoid most of the pitfalls that some people unwittingly get themselves caught in.

 

[Lord Valdyr]

NO, it can't. That's a myth that has been in circulation for a long time..

Just because you repeat what many people have already said doesn't sway anyone into believing you.

I am not saying this is a 100% guaranteed to hold up in court thing I am just saying might as well do it.

So far Ive heard no definite proof this does or does not work so until anyone comes up with anything I'm just gonna say might as well how much do stamps cost these days.

 

[Mouser]

Just because you repeat what many people have already said doesn't sway anyone into believing you.

I am not saying this is a 100% guaranteed to hold up in court thing I am just saying might as well do it.

So far Ive heard no definite proof this does or does not work so until anyone comes up with anything I'm just gonna say might as well how much do stamps cost these days.

From the FAQ I linked to in the post above:

"

I’ve heard about a “poor man’s copyright.” What is it?

The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration. "

If you choose not to bother to read what the copyright office has taken the time to clearly explain, that is your choice.

But your opinions do not hold any weight against the law, so why not take the time to do a bit of research and find out what the process really is?

Edit: to spell it out very clearly:

1) You write a script mail it to yourself via registered mail.

2) You post that script with the caveat that it not be used in commercial projects.

3) I use your script in my commercial project.

4) You contact me telling me that you own the copyright to the script and I have to remove it from the game.

5) I respond asking you to show me a copy of the copyright registration.

6) You say you haven't registered it with the Copyright Office, but you mailed yourself a copy.

7) I say, "Thank you for letting me use your script in my project."

You would have no legal recourse because even though you own the copyright (and that fact may not even be in dispute), you never bothered to register it.

 

[Zeramae]

That's written by people who profit off of having copyrights registered though; they could be lying o.o The .gov doesn't make it automatically the truth in every instance, but for the most part mailing a letter to yourself is not a viable way to affirm your copyright.

For clarification: If you want to go by what generally happens with copyright cases, the site is factual information.

It used to work, sometimes. Now if it works it's not going to be used for something big, that's for sure, and especially not in certain states. So does poor man's copyright work? Maybe 0.1% of the time, in the US anyway, so it's still better to register your copyright. Might as well just say mailing a letter to yourself never works with the stat I pulled out of nowhere.

Bottom Line: Mailing work to yourself is such a bad way to have copyright proof that it's not even worth trying. If you're taking the steps necessary for selling your game, the price of copyright is something you should be laughing at, not worrying about.

 

[Mouser]

That's written by people who profit off of having copyrights registered though...

Actually it's written by government employees or contractors, neither of which give a rat's behind whether anything is ever registered or not. Their salary doesn't come from copyright registration, it comes straight from Congress every year - and with all the lobbying from the music and movie industry, they get plenty of money, most of which gets used in "enforcement".

 

[crimcrim]

this might be sidetracking a little :/

what i have a problem with is copyrighting a concept. for example, a side view battle system with each turn calculated by the players and enemies agility. sound similar? thats FF1. people have released commercial games with that same exact system with no repercussions, which is fine. im not going to give any specifics away with my own scenario, but lets say that the battle system is more advanced, and has been done before by other companies. my system is similar to those games, but i thought of it entirely on my own! is that illegal? again, using the "If you have to ask questions, change it to be safe" doesn't really apply here because it's just such a gray area for me.

 

[Shaz]

I don't believe you can copyright ideas. I think what you're looking for is patents. But really ... is your idea REALLY that good that everyone is going to want to steal it, and are YOU prepared to foot the bill to take someone to court if they do? Are you also avoiding duplicating ANY other system that ANY other game might use, or are you checking to see if it's under copyright before you use it?

 

[crimcrim]

I don't believe you can copyright ideas. I think what you're looking for is patents. But really ... is your idea REALLY that good that everyone is going to want to steal it, and are YOU prepared to foot the bill to take someone to court if they do? Are you also avoiding duplicating ANY other system that ANY other game might use, or are you checking to see if it's under copyright before you use it?

ohhhhhhhhh

no, no you misread, or i just did a terrible job of conveying my idea. what im trying to say is this. the battle system i currently have (CT can be compared to other commercialized triple A titles (FFX, Sore no Kiseki). I want to know if i have to worry about anything. i mean the Final Fantasy 1 style has been copied over countless times in commercial rpg maker games with no legal repercussions, but what about a more modern system? would it matter then?

 

[tpasmall]

I'm pretty sure you could get a patent on it then, but it would be more of a patent on how the code works in relation to the system I think. And patents are expensive as crap. If it's something you are really concerned about, ask a patent lawyer. If they charge a consultation fee, it would be a drop in the bucket compared to how much the patent costs. (Software patents are generally in the $12,000+ range).

 

[Shaz]

So, are you asking how you would protect a system like that if you used it, or if you would get into trouble if you used it because it's like other systems that are already out there?

There is nothing wrong with using a system "like" one that already exists, if you are making modifications to it to change the way it behaves.

 

[Mouser]

Yes, you're talking about software patents.

Patents are in a whole different league than copyright. Copyright you can either prove you own it and have it registered, or you can't.

Patents don't have to be disclosed (so you can "invent" something, start marketing it, and then have someone come to you with the patent forcing you to either license it from them or stop making the product), and you must do a thorough patent search before filing (this is not cheap) to be sure no one has patented your idea already.

One thing to remember is the phrase "prior art". If it's been done before, and wasn't patented, nobody can patent it (at least in theory). So a side view battle system like Final Fantasy is safe. The game mechanics from an RPG like Dungeons and Dragons is safe (though you can't use their trademarked terms or straight copy from their copyrighted material).

Another thing about patents is they are the shortest of all IP protections. So while the protection is very strong while the patent is in force, it will end at some point in the relatively near future.

 

[Paladin-Cleric of Awesome]

Just of of curosity, for curosities sake. I assume using music, say by... um... name someone famous here (I don't tend to listen to radio and stuff so I don't know who's big at the moment) in a commercial game would be a huge no, say you used it for the ending credits or something like they do in movies. But what about traditional music, for example, some tradtional irish music, would crediting the artist who played the song be enough to use it, or would there be a copyright issue there, even if it were an old song that's been done a hundred times by a hundred different people?

And for a non commercial game, would the same copyright issues be issues, or would it be like writing fanfiction. you just sort of disclaim that you own the music and are making no money off it.

Again, just curosity.

 

[tpasmall]

It's just as illegal to use it for non commercial games as it is for commercial. The difference is, they're not going to waste their time going after someone who's not profiting off it.

Recordings never enter public domain, so regardless of how old a recording is, you have to pay to use it. (There are 'royalty free' recordings where you pay a fee up front for a license to use it without paying additional royalties. The music and lyrics themselves are public domain if they were originally written prior to 1922. This just means you can make your own recording of it without paying royalties to the original composer. You cannot use the recordings themselves though.