The traditional EXP system

jonthefox

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Why is it good?   I understand that levels are good for giving the player a sense of progression and growth in power , but why award EXP for enemies killed rather than say, killing a boss, or completing a quest?   This still allows you to have the sense of accomplishment and progression, and actually would be easier to balance since you know how much EXP someone is going to get as they achieve various milestones in the course of the game.   I'm considering alternative ways of distributing experience to the party, and curious why so many games just accept the traditional way.  The only benefit I see to the traditional way is the ability of the player to grind, but this isn't even necessarily preserved in the traditional system if I were to make it for example so that lower level enemies don't yield any EXP.  I know this might not be everyone's design philosophy, but I really don't want to give too much variability in terms of the player's potential to be underleveled or overleveled.  
 

TheoAllen

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Personally, I have no reason to fight an enemy if they didn't yield an EXP reward.


Oh well, I even avoid enemies that have low exp reward anyway
 
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jonthefox

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What if we changed the paradigm of "I am going to go fight these enemies so that they give me EXP" to "I am going to go do this quest because it was given to me by the story of the game, and any enemies I face are obstacles in my journey."   Completing the quest will yield EXP, but enemies are merely obstacles just like puzzles, exploration, etc..  It would also be better to think about a game that doesn't have massive numbers of encounters, but a smaller number of more meaningful encounters.  
 

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Then you should not make the enemy as an option to fight. You have to fight them


In other word, there is no escape, enemies are a part of a gameplay you need to pass, just like puzzle


That's seems fine to me


But if it's going to be a repetitive optional encounter (or even worse, random encounter) when I'm exploring the world, yet, they didn't yield any EXP. It's a huge NO for me.
 
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Wavelength

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I'm actually with Theo here.  One of the prime reasons to give EXP to all battles is to make winning the battle feel rewarding.  It ties into our natural psychological desires to be rewarded for our successes and not just the large successes but every success.


It's also for the same reason that we grade kids' homework assignments; maybe you could more accurately tie grades to knowledge by grading only the exams, but if you did so, very few kids would do the homework.  People would just run from each battle if there was no significant reward (and items usually aren't enough; the EXP is what makes it feel worthwhile unless there's something else there too).  An obvious counter to this argument would be "remove the escape command since the battles are obstacles rather than options", but I've actually played an RPG Maker game that did this - Raiders of Lekunder for RM3.  Battles (with no rewards in themselves) would be placed at choke points to rooms with actual rewards (treasure or progression through the dungeon), and you'd have to fight those battles to get through.  Level ups were awarded by beating bosses at the end of each level.  While I thought it was a decent game, I found this particular design choice extremely unsatisfying as a player.  The battle could not have felt more like a chore and part of that was because there was no reward coming at the end.  I just wanted it to end so I could "move on".  I didn't want to be doing the battle and I resented the fact that I "had to".


I feel this is moreso the case for games where the battles are almost a separate mini-experience into themselves (that is, you are taken to a separate battle screen with controls and/or gameplay that are different than the map).  In games like Diablo, Civilization, Azure Dreams, Dark Cloud, or Goemon's Great Adventure, I feel like it's probably easier for players to view enemies as a single element of the challenge they're currently taking on, and it's not as necessary (though probably still a good idea) to reward them with EXP or similar for every enemy they kill.


EDIT: With all that said, there's definitely wisdom in the opinion that players shouldn't be forced to slog through lots of mindless encounters just to stack required EXP.  So there's a lot of room to consider what the role really is of encounters in your game, as well as additional ways to reward EXP besides encounters or ways to rubberband EXP for players who don't want to grind at all.  I'm not saying the default approach to encounters in RPGs is perfect or even good; mostly I'm just saying that if enemies are there then we need to give the players a reward for defeating them, and the more immediate the reward, the better.
 
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jonthefox

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@wavelength that system actually sounds really cool to me.  I wonder if it's just a case of different strokes for different folks here.  Or maybe I'm just an outlier. :)   I do think there's something to the idea that human psychology demands rewards for trials--I guess I just feel like if I'm exploring a dungeon full of monsters, finding some badass treasure at the end or along the way would be a good enough reward for me.  Enemies to me are just major obstacles of a dungeon, and if they're not fun in and of themselves--then I would argue that that's a case of poor game / battle design rather than the failure to award EXP for every encounter.   I just tried downloading that game you mentioned because I wanted to play it and see if I felt the same way, but the link appears to be broken. ;/
 
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Revival

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 It would also be better to think about a game that doesn't have massive numbers of encounters, but a smaller number of more meaningful encounters.  
This is the formula Shadow of the Colossus uses and it has definitely made the game iconic in its own rights.  All boss fights, nothing else - no experience, just mild boosts to health and grip when you kill a boss or get a collectible.  That being said that game is one of the few games I've seen that has been able to pull this off with ease due to it's beautiful art, scenery, mysterious/symbolic "story" and the emotions in the music - it's a game more about expression and emotions than gameplay, if that makes sense.  If you can convey emotion with a victory - then you do not need an EXP system.  I think this would be a much harder feat to pull off in an RPG Maker quality game though - this is something best left to games with 3D environments that creat a real unique sense of immersion we will never get from a 2D world.   (EDIT: Then again the old Zelda games sort of do this in ABS - there are also minor encounters but you could just ignore it all and do the meaningful fights -  you enjoy the game for the bosses and story.)   

I like grindy RPGs and stats, leveling etc. so I don't think the system needs to go away by any means.  An EXP system definitely appeals to people who like to see their gratification/achievement in the form of numbers, which are easily measured - a game as described in this thread would not allow that feeling but would hopefully keep the player feeling invested through feelings or plot.

Tl;dr both styles are good
 
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Wavelength

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Jon, here's the link that should work: http://www.pavilionboards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10138  I believe the two download links are a PS3 format (you'll just need a PS3 and RPG Maker 3 to play) and a standard save format (you'll need a PS2, a Max Drive or an Action Replay Max device, and RPG Maker 3).


As far as whether it's widely a "different strokes for different folks" or whether you're more of an outlier, I don't know.  It's an interesting question.  I would certainly agree that combat in a game should be fun in and of itself even when there's no extrinsic reward, and that there are failures in the combat design if it's not.  But even with that in mind, being forced to do something by a game (even something that's pretty fun) and not being able to feel like you earn something for doing it can be a negative feeling.  Interestingly you say that you can still see the reward in beating the enemy so you can get to the treasure it was guarding or complete the mission, but I find my psyche doesn't naturally do that - instead, I see it as "I found the treasure and I deserve it" and the game is saying "nope first you have to beat this monster and by the way I'm not giving you anything extra for doing so".
 

jonthefox

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See, I usually feel the opposite.  If it's possible for me (or any player) to just fight some monsters, level up, go rest at the inn, and now breeze through the dungeon because i'm 2 or 3 levels stronger than the 'normal' that the game was balanced for, I find that the game lacks any challenge.  What's more, if I just want to fight monsters purely for the sake of it, or testing out my skills, or whatever reason, and I end up over-leveling myself, then when I decide to resume the main storyline and go to the next dungeon, and it's too easy because I'm overleveled, I feel that the game has robbed me of the challenge and enjoyment that I wanted.


Question for you:  have you ever played a jrpg without any levels or experience points, and you only increased in power through other means? (skill points, equipment, learning new spells, etc.).   Did you resent the enemy encounters in these games too?
 

Wavelength

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Question for you:  have you ever played a jrpg without any levels or experience points, and you only increased in power through other means? (skill points, equipment, learning new spells, etc.).   Did you resent the enemy encounters in these games too?


I've played a couple obscure indie JRPGs like this (like the one I linked you to) and yes I did tend to resent the encounters in those games.  As far as popular games that people would know, the only ones I can think of offhand are SaGa Frontier and Dark Cloud/DC2, but in these games, even though you don't get EXP and Levels per se from fighting enemies (and I didn't resent battling in these games), you still do become stronger by fighting enemies.  In SF it's by having different stats directly rise after battle, if I remember correctly.  Dark Cloud is a more interesting example because the main way to become stronger is to upgrade your weapons.  You need materials to do so and fighting enemies is one way out of several to earn these materials; however, in DC there is no separate battle screen so you can run your way around most enemies as they try to attack you if you don't want to fight.


EDIT: one more quick thought - if you think EXP presents too much of a threat to make characters over/underleveled for the boss or some other challenge, then maybe award something like Skill Points for random encounters, that the player can use to buy new skills and diversify their skillset.  That can still feel good, without changing game balance too much.
 
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jonthefox

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Yeah, or another idea I'm thinking about is, if it's really just about the psychological effect of an immediate reward, maybe I'll just keep the default system but have an extremely gradual stat growth curve.  So if a player ends up a few levels higher or lower than the norm, it won't affect things too much.   Have to go look at my excel sheets and crunch some numbers. :)  
 

KoldBlood

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Yeah, or another idea I'm thinking about is, if it's really just about the psychological effect of an immediate reward, maybe I'll just keep the default system but have an extremely gradual stat growth curve.  So if a player ends up a few levels higher or lower than the norm, it won't affect things too much.   Have to go look at my excel sheets and crunch some numbers. :)  
This is literally what I did. During my very first demo cut I found levels would overpower enemies within two levels and you're 1-Shotting everything in three which made the battles SUPER boring so I increased the amount of exp required to gain a level and lowered the stat boosts for leveling up. To compensate, the amount of HP/SP you receive on a level up was boosted and the spacing between new skills was significantly lowered. The number of new skills learned at once was also doubled.


What this, hopefully, creates is a different reason for the player to want to level up. Instead of getting significantly stronger with each level the player instead gains increased endurance (HP + SP) allowing them to survive longer and put out more damage longer without needing an item and added battle tactics in the form of new skills. The combo should make battles become more interesting as the player levels in the area rather than more boring.


Furthermore, the faster learning of skills plays into my favor during skill design as I know what skills most players will have by a certain point in the game allowing me to make a lot of situation-based skills/enemies and "team-work" skills that the party can use to help each other increase/decrease their outgoing/incoming damage during battle.


Finally, because all of the major stat boosts are handled via equipment I can very easily control how over-powered or under-powered the player can be at different parts of the game. It also allows me to hide a powerful piece of equipment that might be bought or found in a later section of the game in a field/dungeon and makes the player immediately feel the power of their new found toy without breaking the current balance of the area. Just a small bump to give the player an edge for being a good explorer.


It might not be exactly traditional but I found predicting player leveling habits to be extremely annoying for balance (i.e. my first play tester very easily destroyed the balance on my first demo within a couple mins of play time and very little grinding) so I opted for a different strategy of rewarding levels. Even though they still give small boosts a player would have to be REALLY dedicated to the grind to gain a true power spike.
 

Snayff

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Some interesting points, as always. 


For me it comes down to a much more fundamental question, why do we level? Or, in a less philosophical sounding manner, what in our game is allowing the player to feel like they are moving forward. The Bartle Test is a pretty useful starting point when it comes to determining who you want to design for, or who you might appeal to. In addition, we seem to have come to define role playing as how we can customise our character, though I suspect that if we put a new dress on our doll and added a sword we wouldnt call it role playing. 


Even if we are determining the numerical growth of the character as out meter for a players progression I dont think we are stuck with levels as our only option. We could use the amount of skills, perks or traits, the amount of dialog options unlocked or "friends" collected.  


Different strokes is definitely a factor, but even with that there are so many options for us to consider.


At least, thats how I see it. 


Snayff
 

Tai_MT

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What if we changed the paradigm of "I am going to go fight these enemies so that they give me EXP" to "I am going to go do this quest because it was given to me by the story of the game, and any enemies I face are obstacles in my journey."   Completing the quest will yield EXP, but enemies are merely obstacles just like puzzles, exploration, etc..  It would also be better to think about a game that doesn't have massive numbers of encounters, but a smaller number of more meaningful encounters.  


Beat you to it.  :D   I didn't want to remove "grinding" entirely, but I wanted to change what it meant to "level up".  So, what did I do?  I divorced stats from the level up.  Stats are given out as a reward for questing (each quest awards items which you can use on any character to raise stat amounts by 1, 2, 5, 10, and 20 for base stats and 5, 10, 25, 50, and 100 for HP/MP).  But, I didn't remove Experience entirely.  I changed its purpose.  Level of characters simply grant new ways to get around my maps.  Maybe a tree vanishes when you hit level 3.  Maybe a ladder appears when you hit level 6.  Maybe a bridge across the river appears at level 10.  Maybe a quest shows up at level 2 to get the main storyline running.  The purpose of this was two-fold.  First, I wanted players to be constantly exploring my maps and levels.  Each time they leveled up, I wanted them to go looking for what was new, what paths became easier, or what new places opened up (most times, you just get shortcuts to get around easier, but there are fun exceptions).  Second, I wanted the option to grind to be less about gaining power and more about gaining greater agency in the world.  To get across the river, you might have had to walk around the mountain, through a forest, through a cave, and across a small bridge at level 4.  But, when you hit level 10, there's suddenly a bridge built across the river before the mountain and it connects two villages.  You could grind for that level to skip a good chunk of the game if you wanted, but you could also play normally, hit that level, then come back to town and realize there's a bridge back to where you came from... and look, there's some other things that popped up over there since you've been there!  Hey, what's this crystal for?


When creating the system, I just dissected what it is that made it work, what it's purpose was, and how I could alter it without just removing it.  It didn't take me long to realize that the point of XP was to gain a level... which you did to get more stats, more spells, more abilities, or just get more powerful in general.  XP would always serve this purpose so long as a Level Up granted more power.  So, if the only way to gain power was to grind monsters, thus get XP... what point was there in doing any kind of sidequests except as a means to more XP, sick lootz, and to advance the story (if the story was good enough to care about from a player perspective)?  I wanted a story driven game, so the natural solution I came up with was simply changing what it meant to level up.  Why did it have to mean "more power"?  Why couldn't actual character improvement be tied to what they'd done in quests themselves?  Why did I have to tie that to whacking rabbits with swords for 3 hours?  So, I hit on the idea of "Doing a quest grants power, leveling up grants mobility and agency".  So, I redefined what it meant to slay monsters as well.  Slay them if you like, but it isn't entirely necessary.  Slaying most bosses is even "optional" up to a point.  Okay, so you get XP for a monster kill, but it doesn't give you power.  Maybe, maybe not.  Most monsters have drops, and those drops can be useful.  They also drop money.  Money is your lifeline.  My game has NO dedicated healer and NO healing magic.  What does that mean?  It means without money, you cannot heal your character, you cannot cure status ailments (which can be inflicted upon you by terrain or story!), and you cannot stay at Inns.  This means, the vast majority of my treasure chests also do NOT drop money.  It also means most monsters carry some items that may be "unique"... or maybe story driven.  Or maybe there's a 1 in 100 chance that slaying this monster can grant you +1 Attack.

I ended up changing a lot of the game because I wanted to find a way to disincentivize "grinding", without punishing it.  I changed a lot because I wanted players to focus on the narrative and the combat and not on the level ups and blowing through the enemies.
 


Is it fun?  As a biased creator, I couldn't tell you.  What I can tell you, is that more often than not, a player testing my game actually does move around the map looking for what changed when they gain a level, and they do try to pick up every quest they run across in an effort to get their stat points. 
 

jonthefox

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@Tai_MT that sounds really cool about using levels as a way to open up new things in the world, that's a seriously awesome idea.  I feel like it wouldn't change the player desire or satisfaction from getting EXP at all, yet solves the power-discrepancy problem.   
 

Scott_C

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I'd like to point out that EXP also acts as a difficulty slider. If the game is too hard for a particular player they can just grind for levels until they are able to make progress again. This helps make the game accessible to a wider variety of players.
 

TheoAllen

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One thing that come up into my mind was level cap in each stage. I got this idea while playing Prototype 2. For example, in stage 1, you could only level up to 10 at max, if you want to level up more, unlock the next stage. Of course grind to the current max level is optional. This requires work around, maybe an additional script to set level cap.


The design was good, because you couldn't have new skill before advance the plot. Unlike the prequel, Prototype 1, I could unlock all the skills just by grinding and went overpowered without need to advance the plot.
 

Snayff

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@Tai_MT Just dropping in to say... that sounds awesome and I loved it all. 
 

ロリ先輩

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EXP, like a lot of content in computer RPGs, are likely a carry over from Pen and Paper RPGs- after all, that's where a lot of the source material and inspiration for them come from. Early JRPGs, like Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior/Quest draw heavily from Ultima and Wizardry. The former, Ultima was originally developed by a fan of Lord of the Rings and Dungeons and Dragons, and the latter, Wizardry, was basically the computer version of DnD. 

In Pen and Paper RPGs (PnP), you rarely play solo and difficulty and rewards are controlled by a game master. That means that the game will easily scale in difficulty to the player's strength and skill, more over, there are plenty of venues to make use of skills and rewards outside of combat- in conversation, non-combat endeavors (found your own merchant empire, anyone?), and so on. In computer RPGs, you don't have this kind of scaling, which enables the ability to grind, not to mention that most games already throw ridiculously easy means to earn income at you. There are always alternatives.

Elder Scrolls (not ESO) tends to do away with experience, instead leveling up through advancing skills. The better you get at something, the harder it is to grind it. 


Other games do away with level and experience, instead forcing a player to invest in equipment and their own skill to get through increasingly difficulty encounters.
 

TheGamedawg

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This is something I have always been very curious about myself.  EXP awarded through the traditional way is still very viable, but I'm always curious to see how other games could find more unique ways to give passive stat boosts.  Here's some of the mechanics I've found as well as some original ideas.


I've seen games award stat bonuses depending on the enemies.  Such as killing a large monster would give you 1 permanent health or killing enough animated shields would give you a defense boost.


Ever play Final Fantasy X?  That game had a mechanic called a "Sphere Grid" which was an interesting way to level up.


Make it so not only the characters can level up, but also magic, weapons, ect.  The more you use them, the better they become.  Think Secret of Mana/Evermore.


Stat boosts given primarily through equipment.  This can make "level 1" runs more possible too since all you have to do is unequip your characters.


Instead of EXP, you get JP (or an equivalent) which can be be used to purchase stat boosts or skills.
 

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