The traditional EXP system

[Wavelength]

@Wavelength hah, I mean I suppose the game could you give you the EXP messages along the way even if when you leveled up was entirely predetermined, but this would be the same kind of idea to me, just a perhaps better (or more preferred by some) implementation of it.  It's still diverging from the traditional system of EXP being highly variable depending on how much the player chooses to fight, and what types of enemies he chooses to fight.   

That's a very funny observation, Jon... but I think a true one!  It's all in how you frame it.

 

[Tai_MT]

Personally, if I were to only gain my next bit of power after defeating a boss, I'd rather the XP not exist at all and just be given skills and equipment to raise my stats.  If my level ups were so controlled like that, I'd rather they just dispensed with an XP/Level system entirely, since it literally wouldn't matter if I gained that level for the stats or if I gained those stats from equipment.


That's just how I'd personally prefer it as a player.  Rather than feeling like every level is an "empty level".

 

[HeathRiley]

@Wavelength hah, I mean I suppose the game could you give you the EXP messages along the way even if when you leveled up was entirely predetermined, but this would be the same kind of idea to me, just a perhaps better (or more preferred by some) implementation of it.  It's still diverging from the traditional system of EXP being highly variable depending on how much the player chooses to fight, and what types of enemies he chooses to fight.   

@jonthefox 


I thought of two more examples of slightly breaking the norm. In Ffxiv the mmo, you can get exp from grinding mobs, but at the same time taking part in events that happen out in the open you get more exp when they're completed. Also in story related dungeons the monsters there give more exp than over world monsters. Meaning you get more exp for actively participating in a story dungeon. Which you can only grind up to a specific point gearwise. Eventually exp falls off and you have to move onto your next dungeon. (Could still rerun it but not worth it)


The other one I thought of was again star ocean 4 and the "battle board". It didn't punish players but depending on the limited buffs the player built up, they could get extra job points, exp, or money. Or a smaller combination of them. It was a way to slow things down disguised as a bonus system. And while I hated some of the games characters, I did like the gameplay.

 

[jonthefox]

@HeathRiley Interesting.  Not a bad idea.  But I would want such a mechanic to be transparent, as I wouldn't want my players to not realize that enemies were awarding EXP disproportionately.  I kind of think that if a game is going to use a traditional EXP system, it's best to just make sure that some variation (whether being over or under) doesn't hugely impact the ease or difficulty of the game (which is the solution I'm tentatively opting for.  (This is also not to say that a game couldn't or shouldn't have difficulty settings, just that the difficulty level shouldn't be heavily influenced by the unpredictable nature of how much or how little the player ends up fighting).

 

[HeathRiley]

@jonthefox (ahah so I can tag on pc, but not on my phone, I had been trying to figure that out :x)


Yea you definitely want to inform the player via dialogue/tutorial when using a such a system. The confusion it could amass would almost be comical to see. Its mostly the idea that exp can come more readily for story related stuff which would push the player forward, or with the second idea the player feels like they're getting a bonus, however you've designed the system around that bonus existing. Which... sounds evil, but its a fun mechanic to feel like you're getting bonus exp/gold/jp.


The one system I particularly never cared for was the hardcaps in FFXIII. Not because it made things hard, but because I felt like I had to rush to cap, then I HAD to move onward with the story. If you go that route, allowing for upgrades somewhere else, like gear/enchantments is a nice thing to supplement in the mean time.


Some one mentioned FF8 earlier, which was unique, and they tried that again in The Last Remnant, but they overshot the difficulty on the initial xbox release. It punished you pretty hard for grinding. Bosses start using higher tier attacks etc

 

[kurt91]

I played a game once that was an RPG built using a Visual Novel engine. You would read the dialogue, often so much that it would be like reading a chapter from a book (which was sort of the point), and eventually see a map screen. There were no shops or anything, so you didn't ever have a reason to return to previously-visited towns unless the plot required you to. However, the option was *technically* there. The only battles in the game were all pre-scripted encounters, so there was absolutely no way to level grind. You *technically* earned EXP, but only as an excuse to gradually give you new skills and thus more options in battle. As a result, even though all of the mechanics to an RPG were techically there, each battle felt more like a puzzle since you had to learn which skills in the correct sequence would beat the enemy. Your level was always going to be the exact same, and since the damage numbers and HP amounts grew at roughly the same rate, your ratio of damage per attack was always the same. The stats and growth were basically an illusion that did nothing overall to the experience, but the illusion of growth helped to keep the gamer aspect of the player's mind happy. You know what I mean?


But yeah, the "puzzle" aspect of the game (along with the superb writing when you weren't in battle) kept things fun. In battles, you had a very limited supply of MP that replenished by 1 point every turn. You would have to consider which summon's effect would help you the most (Prevent most capture-type attacks, massive damage reduction, massive speed increase, massive attack boost). Each summon took a large amount of MP to use, so you often wouldn't be able to use more than one or two at a time until endgame battles. Even then, you would need to carefully consider which one would be most important for that particular encounter. Enemies could grab you (hence the "Capture-type" attacks) and you had to figure out if it was better in that particular situation to try and struggle loose before it used a super-powerful attack, or if you needed to quickly attack it with your weapon to try and get it to let you go. You had healing abilities, but using one would mean that you weren't countering the enemy's attacks and their special effects or sheer damage would negate whatever advantage the healing would provide, except under specific circumstances. (for example, freezing a water or slime enemy so they had to spend a turn thawing out and couldn't attack you or grab you while you were healing)