The weakest parts of RPG battle design?

Alexander Amnell

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Pokemon is a fantastic example of this.

The right way to do turn-based were the GBA Golden Sun games (I never played the DS game).
Yes, golden sun was awesome, but you didn't miss much not playing the 3d one though, the story was so terrible that it didn't bother me in the least when it ended abruptly and with no sense of closure or end... it was so bad I was just glad to see it end.
 

SomaelCK

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Turn-based, boring?? I don't think so. It's depend on how do you execute it.

I have been playing Atlus's Shin Megami Tensei IV recently, traditional turn-based to the core and it's exciting as hell (partly due to the difficulty).
 

amerk

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Turn-based, boring?? I don't think so. It's depend on how do you execute it.

I have been playing Atlus's Shin Megami Tensei IV recently, traditional turn-based to the core and it's exciting as hell (partly due to the difficulty).
Exactly this. Playing turn-based is all about forming a strategy on how to take down your opponent. Now naturally, if the game is too easy, I can see how this would be boring, since the battles would be nothing more than filler. But I've recently played some tougher turn-based games that made you think about your moves. Sometimes the key was knowing what enemy was weak to what skill or state (even boss enemies had a status weakness you had to find and use), other times it's simply buffing up your healer and then having the healer heal the party every round or two.
 

Darkanine

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Another thing that annoys me in some RPGs are the end-game equipment,only really 1 set of "ultimate" gear for the party members,this only started to bug me when I beat Epic Battle Fantasy 3 and 4 where all weapons and armor were pretty balanced.It added a lot of replayability to what sets you would equip and make the game more visually interesting (the armors and weapons were visuals).

Also the whole "This green slime is resistant to thunder,but fire spells will one-shot it,even though they cost the same MP" thing annoys me now.
 

Berylstone

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Compared to other games that involve combat, turn based RPG's can in many ways be pretty relaxed since you have full control over when to move ahead: just make a selection from the combat menu.

What limits bug you about this sort of combat style(although I love this sort of style)?
Nothing really bugs me about a turn-based battle system generally.  

I could point to specific elements in other RPG battle systems I don't care for of course.  But I don't think that's what you are meaning here.  Because that's not the same as critiquing the over-all concept of a turn-based battle system itself.  

There are limits.  But none of them bother me.  But then again, I'm not really into reflex driven game play.  I prefer combat that challenges the mind rather Eye-hand coordination.
 
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AlysIsLost

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My issue with turn based RPG's is usually the pacing. I hate having to wait for a lengthy battle animations to finish after seeing it a lot... (Disgaea series anyone?)

The option to Guard! While it can be useful (I often abused the regenerative effects in Legend of Dragoon) I think guarding should be done automatically and also should have a chance to fail. I also don't think it should allow for any regeneration, it should just reduce damage.

While not limited to turn based RPG's, I dislike random battles that don't have a minimum of steps required prior to the chance of another battle... I can't tell you how many times I've had to redo boss battles and etc just because I got into a fight with a really strong monster twice in a row (that's hard to run from), before reaching a save-point.
 

Eschaton

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Turn-based, boring?? I don't think so. It's depend on how do you execute it.

I have been playing Atlus's Shin Megami Tensei IV recently, traditional turn-based to the core and it's exciting as hell (partly due to the difficulty).
Exactly this. Playing turn-based is all about forming a strategy on how to take down your opponent. Now naturally, if the game is too easy, I can see how this would be boring, since the battles would be nothing more than filler. But I've recently played some tougher turn-based games that made you think about your moves. Sometimes the key was knowing what enemy was weak to what skill or state (even boss enemies had a status weakness you had to find and use), other times it's simply buffing up your healer and then having the healer heal the party every round or two.
Turn-based IS boring because it gives you infinite margin of error in your strategy planning.  You can stop and check GameFaqs or the Wiki (or PM the developer).  Real time and ATB keep you on your toes.  At least... when designed right.
 

AlysIsLost

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Turn-based IS boring because it gives you infinite margin of error in your strategy planning.  You can stop and check GameFaqs or the Wiki (or PM the developer).  Real time and ATB keep you on your toes.  At least... when designed right.
Just because you have strategy, does not mean you will win. It's all about the timing of the skills, usage of items, knowing when to guard or when to re-buff. Yes the game is still pretty laid back, but some people just want to relax and not be stressed out because they missed out on attacking the enemy by a few seconds.

Another thing that I dislike is that most turn based rpg's have it so you can not switch out party members mid battle and/or you get game over because 3 party members died
 
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Eschaton

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Another thing that I dislike is that most turn based rpg's have it so you can not switch out party members mid battle and/or you get game over because 3 party members died
If you think you have to switch your team out in battle, then the game hasn't done a good enough job of justifying why you can't have more than 3-6 guys fighting at a time.  We all know the practical reason, but few games give us a good story justification.
 

Deep Thought

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My issue? No sense of movement or strategy. I have similar feelings as Eschaton; the concept of menus and graphs bore me. As I often find myself saying, I find turn-based strategy, (FF Tactics, Tactics Ogre) roguelikes, and tabletop games more strategic and authentic to a real battle than the usual menu-based system. Even Pokemon, which is relatively fast-paced, has begun to bore me; it's all about clicking through menus. I like to move and flank, if you catch my drift.
 

Omnimental

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Another thing that I dislike is that most turn based rpg's have it so you can not switch out party members mid battle and/or you get game over because 3 party members died
Oh lordy, that always irked me.

[GAME OVER]

Half my party is still at full health and apparently goofing off in the background.  WTF?

---------------

As to Ulex's note, you'll never find a video game with the freedom of a tabletop.   :p

But seriously, I agree with you.  Menu driven combat made sense when they were introduced, but now we should be striving for more than just clicking through menus to attack.  Give me positioning, or input commands, or timed attacks, or field affinities, or something.  Just give me something to actually do besides just clicking through menus.
 

Eschaton

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A bunch of us should get together and pool our money so we can have a brand new battle engine script made to be released to the community.  A battle engine that addresses our concerns.

Here's my suggestions:

1.  Hotkey commands in addition to menus

2.  Commands and skills are interchangeable

3.  Instead of selecting a target, the skill goes off on whatever the mouse is hovering over

4.  RTS-style actor positioning

There are all kinds of other ideas in mind, but the vast majority can be done with scripts.
 

Engr. Adiktuzmiko

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I'm not into number 3... It might be troublesome to use... better yet, just use mouse for target selection... but really, this is quite off-topic already
 
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Chaos Avian

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Even if we pool in the money, who'd be willing to do it (unless you have someone already in mind)? The script itself has a ton of customisation, then there's the possible issue of compatibility with other scripts as well.
 

Ed19

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Here's my suggestion about my favorite battle system

1) The Tales of Battle system : I hope someone can make a tales battle system. The battle system is evolved quickly, full of innovation and relatively fast-paced, the main drawback is that you can't freely control the other party members, AI can be stupid sometimes..)

2) FF XII battle system : This is I call a pseduo-turn based battle system. it will take some time to get used to this battle system, but in the end I like this "pseduo-turn based battle system" than FF X battle system or any ATB. Able to hover around the enemies and wait for your chance to attack the enemy is not a bad idea. And it's hard to explain how the FF XII battle system works.
 

Engr. Adiktuzmiko

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so FFXII was like an active battle system (you can move around) in a confined map, but has an ATB bar that decides if you can use commands?


or you mean it can simply select enemies to show info while waiting for the ATB bars to fill?
 
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Ed19

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Yes, if u do it manually , you select the battle command (attack and magic, no-guard mode if i'm not mistaken) and then wait for the bar to fill then you can perform your action.

If u use attack gambit (some kind of battle command), you'll automatically attack your enemy.

You can switch your party member in the middle of the battle too. (but if he/she is in action, you can't).

That's why i called it pseudo battle system. lol, it looks like action RPG but it's not.
 

Eschaton

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I'm sure Victor Sant could be sufficiently bribed.  Probably.

He already has a great ATB script, animated battlers, on-the-map battles (like in Chrono Trigger), and a good AI script.
 

kerbonklin

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I find nothing wrong with general menu commands, menus are a way of life! We order food from menus, we choose services from menus of choices, THIS FORUM IS ONE COMPLEX MENU! =)
 

Archeia

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The pause between attacks is a bit of a downer. I'd like a system where if you don't do an action quick enough, the currently selected party member loses their turn. Probably a script that does that.


The weakest point of combat in a turnbased rpg is often: The limits the developer puts on the stuff in it :p
 
Some consider that the thing about taking time to strategize IS the best part of Turn Based RPGs. If the action is going to be predetermined for us then might as well make an Action RPG. I would absolutely hate a game like this especially since this is battles we're talking about.


This pretty much:

I prefer combat that challenges the mind rather Eye-hand coordination.
 
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