Things to avoid in your game

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ebanyle, May 13, 2019.

  1. HexMozart88

    HexMozart88 The Master of Random Garbage Veteran

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    No, I got that point pretty well. I agree that you shouldn't include features you don't like, but you also seemed to be referring to stuff you didn't like about features in general, so that was what I was addressing.
     
  2. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    No idea why you thought that, as that wasn't the point. Maybe it's this dumb cold medicine, I'm not stating myself well right now. But at least it seems it's been sorted out.
     
  3. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    Right. Regarding visual encounters, I've been discussing it in another thread that I don't feel like to bring back it here. But whatever issues mentioned in this thread, most of it was never been my issue. And the reason why I choose visual largely not because "it's popular so I need to do that", but it was from my own that I liked visual way better than random encounter most of the time.

    I don't feel like to "innovate" with random encounter just because a person is telling me to do so. I already pick my choice. But instead, I'm just gonna wait for someone to actually innovate a random encounter. Granted, I'm not actually picky with whatever encounter system the dev has chosen. I'd deal with it until I find it's either "this is great!" or "yeah, this is annoying".

    Also, at the end of the day, I value the direct feedback to my game. A discussion is fun to see how people see a particular subject, and a consideration to change something. But the actual decision influence is largely from my players than just from a discussion. Assume those feedback aren't against my vision.
     
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  4. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    @TheoAllen

    I had a pretty great discussion with @Wavelength a while back on the pitfalls of both encounter systems. I don't remember what we eventually agreed on, but I think it was a pretty good discussion as we had both brought up points the other had never considered before.

    I think if you like something, you put it into your game anyway. It's rare a person puts things they don't like into their games. If they do so, it's essentially out of inexperience or for marketing reasons.

    The important thing is the refinement of whatever you decide you like. Is "Default" anything better? I don't know. I'm inclined to believe the Default RTP of the RPG Maker Engines is pretty fantastic and wish we had more assets in that style (because frankly, we have like... NONE)... but, does that make them inherently "good"? No.

    As with anything, it's all in how you use it. If you use the default and implement it in the default way... it's bog standard. There's a case to be made for improving and innovating. For not just doing "what is expected" even if you like it "bog standard".

    I, for one, like the bog standard "Random Encounters". It has never bothered me in a single RPG. No, not even the "take one step, here's a new battle". But, if I did it like that, what kind of audience would I draw? Not the ones with serious criticism against such a system.

    I think that's the important thing. Realizing that just because you love something... doesn't mean it doesn't need to be improved or changed. Don't change it because people say you should. Change it because it makes the experience better. In an objective and measurable way.

    As the saying goes, "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."
     
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  5. VisitorsFromDreams

    VisitorsFromDreams Veteran Veteran

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    I think Pokemon has my favorite random encounter system, the idea of it only happening on really specific terrain so you can either avoid it or seek it out is pretty nicely balanced I think, im not sure why more RPGs havent borrowed that idea.
     
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  6. Wavelength

    Wavelength Pre-Merge Boot Moderator

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    I believe one of the main points we agreed on was that Visible Encounters are the better way in theory, because they don't force the players into unnecessary or unwanted combat (and give the player something interesting to do on the map, and also because it lets players who are seeking combat find it immediately), but in practice they are considerably harder to implement well (which requires creating a fair dynamic where the player can avoid encounters but it's not trivially easy, making it so that all the encounters in a dungeon don't bunch up in one place, spreading out the pace of encounters well, and figuring out a good way to handle what happens after an Escape from combat). :)

    I still think the pros outweigh the cons for even a remotely competent Visible Encounter system, and I know you still think the cons outweigh the pros in almost every game you've ever seen, and I think that's reasonable, if those are things that bother you a lot. I'm aiming to design a game that averts all of those pitfalls, and where the act of seeking out or avoiding the Visible Encounters in dungeons will be really engaging.
     
  7. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    @Wavelength Yeah, that sounds about right. I remember saying and thinking that I would enjoy Visual Encounter systems if they were done better and about half a dozen ways they could be improved with you.

    In either case, the discussion helped me improve my own preference for Random Encounters too. I'm hoping to create a system that avoids all of its pitfalls as well. One where the player won't get annoyed by it and will find it minimally intrusive, yet it will still allow players to "grind" if they so desire.

    I'm hoping your game will be the first I play where I genuinely enjoy the Visual Combat system aside from Earthbound. :D
     
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  8. Kupotepo

    Kupotepo Fantasy realist Veteran

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    The duengons that take eternally to finish. It is draining me personally.
    Constant stunt and miss can be annoying.
    Grinding system that take too long to gain exprience point.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  9. Ninjakillzu

    Ninjakillzu Veteran Veteran

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    I 100% agree with everything you've said! Here's the kicker: I've never played a JRPG. I have no grinding, no puzzles, no mini-games, and definitely no time wasting "deep" crafting systems to bloat game time. In my current projects, I focus a HUGE amount on lore, characters, and generally making the worlds seem "lived in". My games are much more influenced by by RPGs developed in western countries.
     
  10. somenick

    somenick Veteran Veteran

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    A while ago I was fooling around and upon escape from a visual encounter, I would momentarily instruct said event to move away from player. Especially if the visual encounter seeks you out, giving you a second or so to run, literally.
     
  11. arekpowalan

    arekpowalan Veteran Veteran

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    Losing health by doing for minor actions
    Lunar Dragon Song achieved one of the most mind-boggling penalties by not only limiting your running stamina, but also reducing HP when the character becomes tired. Not only this doesn't make sense for an adventurer, but it makes navigating towns and dungeons downright tedious. Certain games like Rune Factory use stamina system, which is also troublesome during dungeon exploration, although it is less bad because you do other things than fighting and of stamina can be increased by leveling up. If you want to implement some penalty for player's action, be very careful not to make it too unbearable.

    Overly convoluted battle system
    Some of the most glaring pitfalls in indie gaming is that you may think your battle isn't fancy enough, so you add bunch of strange parameters and rules into it. While this makes you game looks original, the system can be so convoluted to the point of being a mess. Unlimited Saga and games from Compile Heart are some of the most infamous when it comes to inventing weird battle systems or adding junks to the traditional ones that they end up either too confusing to play or take forever to finish. If the system isn't broken, don't fix it.

    That said, it's also important to play around with the existing battle systems. Games likeDragon Quest, Shin Megami Tensei, and Ethan Oddessy all used first person battle with heavy emphasize on command and party tactics, although all of them have different styles and unique approaches. Usually, the creator add one or two gimmick(s) and use different UI boxes, battle animations, different party formation, and pretty colors to make their game stand out from others. You need to be rather creative when it comes to designing a battle system to make it interesting.

    Forgotten party members
    A lot of games introduce party members that go through their respective story arcs, only to be completely forgotten once their character developments are over. This happens a lot with stories that cram too many characters into the roster and the author doesn't know what to do with them after certain points of the narrative. Dialogues, side quests and extra character arcs should be added so that all party members share enough screen time throughout the journey. Make them equally engage in the journey and make them as equally relevant in important events such as plot twist scenes or final battles.
     
  12. cthulhusquid

    cthulhusquid Veteran Veteran

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    Spamming basic attacks
    This. If a game can be completed by just spamming basic attacks, then I have no reason to play it (unless there is a very good reason why skills are limited). Mashing the attack button requires no thought, and it trivializes battles.

    Puzzles
    I have never been a fan of puzzles in games. If I wanted to solve a complex problem, I would work on some actual puzzles rather than a forced-in element designed to make the game longer by frustrating the player.
     
  13. GLM

    GLM ブラッドシェド © 1989 POLOCOM Member

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    I couldn't agree more.

    Several people have said this now. Do you think there is an acceptable level of puzzle complexity that doesn't really get in the way? Like the old "move a few blocks around for a chest" bit?
     
  14. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    As a player, a puzzle that does not really get in my way is fine. I just shrugged off and move on. Usually a flip switch puzzle with obvious indicator, simple lock picking puzzle and maybe boulder push. It's probably not going to the thing I remember from the game though. But if the puzzle is too complex, it's definitely going to be the thing I remember, usually in the bad way.
     
  15. Aesica

    Aesica undefined Veteran

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    I think the key here is "for a chest" or similar, optional rewards. Even though I enjoy puzzles, I know not everyone does so I can see how having to solve some complex puzzle in order to progress through the game might be a turn-off. However, if that complex puzzle is off to the side and rewards optional loot instead, I think that's just fine if not an excellent way to use puzzles in your game.
     
  16. cthulhusquid

    cthulhusquid Veteran Veteran

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    If it's something very simple then it depends, but I really hate the ones where you have to press a series of buttons and they each turn on or off one/several things. I'd rather just gather keycards and be done with it, ala-Doom.
     
  17. Tiamat-86

    Tiamat-86 old jrpg gamer Veteran

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    Puzzles and mingames can both have the same value when done well
    Minigames
    - when rewards easily overpower you for a large portion of the game (dragon quest 11)
    - when it so much as speed bumps main quest progress with promise of missable 1 time reward (FF9 cards, 10 blitzball)
    with proper balancing minigames can just be an equal alternative to grinding for the same amount of time.
    (dragon warrior 3)
    1 hour gambling and you buy all best equipment in 3rd and 4th town
    1 hour grinding and gain 5 levels and buy 1/3rd of the gear
    both methods result in the same overall increase after 1 hour
    (just enough to make kandar a little to easy but makes even match for enemies in next area.)
    Puzzles
    - roadblocked (BrainLord horrible for that) puzzles connected to the main story should remain fairly easy. dont have a ice sliding puzzle that requires an exact 10 moves in a row, keep the difficulty low enough that your friend jeff can still pull it off when drunk.
    - encounters, for the love of god please turn off encounters in puzzle rooms that require alot of walking
    sidequests are a great place for more complex puzzles as long as the player knows that it is just a sidequest.
    completionists will want to do it for rewards. challengers will want to test their mind against the creators.
    casuals will know that its not required.
    a good quest journal might even entice some casuals to try your puzzle sidequests when they need a break from the main story
    No Returns
    it is recommended that you give ample warning to save just before any point of no return.
    even if you can return but just not for a very long time a save warning is still appreciated.
    never have places that you can only visit momentarily and then cant re-enter unless it is 100% questline and 0 items to find.
    Encounters
    it seems like the only way to even attempt to make everyone happy is to have both encounter systems, BUT not at the same time.
    so have any bartender can trigger option that flips a switch and turns on/off encounters. when the option is set to
    On - there is no random encounters. visual enemy event pages become active. cant grind.
    Off - there is random encounters. visual enemy events are hidden. can grind as long as HP allows for.
    this again just boils down to your core audience being casual vs pro gamers
    (screw the hardcore gamers those guys only want customize-able endgame)
    Endgame
    treat the end boss as a No Return. if you have endgame or not people dont want to lose half a dungeon just because they won or lost the fight.
    weather you make a stand alone game. or making something for the people that arent satisfied with games that never get content updates,,,,
    go play some dam NES,SNES,N64,GameCube,Sega,PS1. "Endgame" is a term that started around the same time as DLC.
    before that it was just "The Game" and the game just had 1-2 optional bosses stronger then endboss. and most of which were only hidden behind guess what?..... a puzzle, or barely even hidden at all.
    anyways...
    endgame can be just as risky as making a sequel. if done well you've made a name for yourself.
    but if done poorly, everything youve workd on get summed up to "the expansion killed the game"
    for both the creators and the players side, endgame should only been seen as series of optional sidequest tied to lore.
    if main quest continues into endgame it no longer endgame, it just bad writing and not having a clear ending.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  18. CraneSoft

    CraneSoft Villager Member

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    Personally I think the whole point of puzzles is to break out of the boring, monotonous routine of "walking from point A to B, open all chests in the way, kill things and fight boss" formula in dungeon crawling. If a game completely lacks puzzle in any form, sooner or later every dungeon (especially the bigger dungeons) will feel the same and I'll begin to lose interest. I'd agree on most people put puzzles without much thought into them (making puzzles for the sake of having puzzles to prolong the dungeon) and only results in annoyance (due to either being trivial or overly complex) rather than entertaining the players.
     
  19. Aesica

    Aesica undefined Veteran

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    After playing a few games from the completed games forum section, I need to add one more thing:

    HEY! LISTEN! Pushy, Overly-Lengthy, Gameplay-Interrupting Tutorials
    It's fine to tell me what keys will move me around and interact with the game world/UI when I first start the game, but when something pops up every 2 seconds to tell me to equip a weapon, use a newly-available skill, open a chest, or some other agonizingly obvious thing, I'm going to get annoyed pretty quickly. I don't want to call out any games here, but I played one in particular that was like, "use this skill to generate a whatever-charge!" followed by "now use this skill to consume your whatever charge now that you have one available!" followed by "and now use this skill since you have 2 more charges available!" I stopped playing the game at that point because honestly, all I needed to know was that "this skill generates whatever charges that I can use to power these other skills. kthx"
     
  20. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    A tutorial is a complicated thing. You see some people hate tutorial, but from my experience, some people need that spelled out loud. Especially when you're making a "brand new" system/rules that are not seen in most games. The sweet spot would be a feature to turn the tutorial on/off or if the tutorial is a serial of sequence, you can skip it. But then again, some ppl who decide to skip it may not actually understand the system. It did happen to my game at least, the thing I'd expect my player would understand if the explored it a bit, but they decided not to explore and complained why it worked that way. Granted, it still partially my fault for not making the UI clear enough, to begin with.

    So I'd say, tutorial varies from the game by game. What matter is to listen to your player/audience what goes wrong with your tutorial or your UI design. A player may arrogant enough to skip tutorial pretend that they do understand that they may don't.
     

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