Thoughts on crafting systems?

[Ashton]

For the sake of argument I'm disregarding the "does this fit with the gameplay" argument, since we're assuming a scenario where it does (and really very few games have _zero_ means of fitting in a crafting system)

So, this is something I've been thinking about - should I provide some for of crafting system for my game, or should I just provide opportunities for players to purchase things more often or more gold drops, etc.

I've seen all sides of the crafting system, and in single-player games, especially early on, I feel like it's a waste of time and inventory space (especially in games where you start with a tiny inventory and upgrade it with more/large "backpacks" or w/e) I understand that it "increases play hours" and it gives players a means of obtaining items that can't be found in stores, but those can be solved with hard-to-find shops and treasure-chests, I can also see the "it gives players more gold by crafting/selling items" but that can be solved by increasing gold drops from enemies. In fact the only argument I like is that it gives more meaning to grinding XP - you can also bring craft items while you lvl up. 

So, what are your thoughts on crafting systems? Are they expected these days? Are the over-rated? or perhaps there's a happy middle ground some of you have found?

 

[Venka]

I think it really depends on how its implemented. Some games are centered around it while others bring it in as an after thought. I think it's probably done best when like you said, it's an optional feature. You get exclusive items you couldn't get anywhere else. So it's a reward for working on the craft and makes the game easier in some way. That way you can draw in the players that like to craft while not driving away the ones that think it's a waste of time or an annoyance.

And just like anything else. The more thought and balance you put into it, the better it'll be. Making it too complicated will just bog the whole experience down. For example if I have to go mine some metal ore, then smelt the metal into bars, then hammer out the bars into specific shapes, and then takes some of those shapes (aka handles, hammer head, sword blade) and combine it with other pieces I may have had to craft as well.. like skinning a critter and tanning the hide and making leather.. well that would get very complicated and might not appeal to as many people. Personally, I don't mind the complicated systems but I know it's not for everyone

If you don't put enough though into it and the items make no sense and crafting is just there to add another feature to the list then it becomes a waste of time. For example if the items I craft are comparable to items I can find while adventuring or I can buy for cheap in a shop.. then I feel both my time and your time (as the developer had to spend time making the system) was wasted for even trying out crafting.

 

[Arin]

I love crafting systems. I even adore them if done right. If you make the required drops drop exceptionally well so that it takes the farming aspect out of it, then you're doing it right. Rusty Hearts has a good crafting system that provides you with 151 crafting recipes, but the required materials only boil down to about 20. Also, a disenchant/disassemble to get materials for crafting will also help. If it's just farming with no real way to speed up the process, most players WILL probably shirk it away.

 

[SLEEP]

crafting systems are basically a punchline, with the rest of the joke being "person who will never finish their game".

they take so much time to set up and balance properly, and in the end they aren't even worth the effort. they're best used in open-ended games, in which players can tackle problems in a number of ways, therefore reducing the number of "scrap" items a player produces and more likely to produce an item that's worth something in play. As well as games which focus on exploration, although a vanilla items system can support exploration as well.

They also work in games with an overall focus on customization. Like, if you can customize your character and roleplay their life a bit and get a house and a waifu, then you'd probably benefit from having item customization in the form of crafting.

Or these systems work as simple Skinner box addiction systems, but lol if you do that.

Most games, most jRPG games, would benefit from the simplicity of a vanilla items system. There's some way of including some light customization, like a Materia-esque system, or some limited ability to customize your existing weapons by giving them new properties (like elemental attributes for example), if you wanted to know what a middle ground might look like. But your thoughts are pretty spot-on. 

 

[Curia Chasea]

Well, people are giving their opinions here - so I'll give you a different approach. We'll answer the question of what a crafting system actually is in terms of mechanics. Sorry for the long intro on this one though - I'll just explain some stuff to make sure we're on the same page.

- long intro -

Crafting Systems are just one of the ways to give players access to items. Its a delivery system of sorts. 

Usually in games you will want to grant the player some kind of "item X". Whether its a new skill, stat boost, piece of armor to upgrade stats, passive ability, new house or car - does not matter. You just want the player to have "item X" at a specific time in the game. For example - it can be as simple as a key restricting access to an area. "Item X" however can also be stats - you limit access to certain areas by putting enemies simply too strong by sheer stats. MMOs use stats this way - they make you too weak to explore certain parts of the game world, cause monsters will one-hit you there. 

Now, delivering the "Item X" to the player creates a need for a "delivery system" to be placed. These can be:

- Task restricted

- Time restricted

- Progress restricted

- Randomized

Task Restricted systems are simple. "Perform activity X enough times to be granted the item." These can be for example - gathering experience to level up (upon hitting the level - stats/skills are granted), collecting monster drops, performing an optional sidequest or collecting a currency to buy them in a shop (this counts for not just gold, but also skill points).

Time Restricted systems are arbitrary in a way. "After 1 hour of playing the game - receive this item". Attendance in games for example grants you some extra loot. "Play one hour per day - gain some extra exp." Do note however - we are speaking Real Time here. "Survive for 15 minutes" is a Task. You actively do something.

Progress Restricted systems are based on when the designer wants to grant an item, just because the player needs it at the time. Putting a Hookshot in a chest in a dungeon so you can progress through it would be an example. Giving you a key to the next dungeon after a boss battle as well. Basically - the designer decides for the player when he needs the item. If you enter a longer dungeon - I can add a White Mage to your party (we have a flavor meeting where you get to know the priest and learn about his quest, etc) so he sustains the party through the dungeon.

Randomized systems are for elements that are not necessary to progress through the game. Special loot dropping from monsters that is only cosmetic in nature for example. 

These can mix however. I can make powerful weapons drop from monsters - making the player farm. This however is a Task/Randomized system where I say "Slay 50 + 1d20 monsters to obtain Item X". 

- briefing over, now its time for the problem -

So, Crafting Systems are basically a Task Restricted delivery system with a mild randomized pattern. In general they work like this:

- You have a recipe for an item.

- You obtain materials.

- Make the desired item. 

What this solves is the problem of dropping pointless loot. Let's say that I have a White Mage, Black Mage, Knight and Thief in my party. If a Knight Sword drops - I am super happy. When I get the White Staff - Super Happy as well. Knight sword again - ok..... Black Wand - Super happy. Knight Sword again - darn it... White Staff - oh come on! Black Wand - Seriously? Knight Sword - ....... Knight Sword again - For #%$^ sake! Where is the #%^$$^ Thief Knife already?!?!

Now, if monsters drop crafting materials instead - the player will just forge his required items. He still spends time farming monsters but his frustration levels will be lower, since he will not "forge randomly" the same item. If you wish to add rare weapons - you just add a rare material. Like, let's say rare weapons require a Diamond that has a 5% chance to drop. If it drops - you now know one of your party members can get a rare item of your choice. 

Item Recipes however are used to limit what the player can create at a given time. This way, until the player is level 10 - he has only recipes for Level 1 and 5 items. When he hits 10 - grant him level 10 and 15 recipes. And so on. You can also just give the player all recipes at once - but I would not recommend it. Its best to limit the player to what is actually an important item for him to have first. Build a house before you can build the double-bed inside it. 

Now - why not just use Gold and have players shop for equipment? 

This comparison is a fallacy. Technically they function in the same way mechanically. Gold dropping from monsters and just equipment at varying costs in the shop (the shop limiting what you can buy OR having level restricted items) is just the simplest crafting system you can make -> Forge Gold into Items. Its also a Task Restricted system with mild randomized patterns. (You get gold from battles in various amounts and in random amount of encounters). That's why you don't put them against each other. 

Crafting should be pitched against Random Loot drops. Not shops. 

If your option is either "Drop materials to create rares" or "Drop randomized rares from monsters" - you now have a choice to make as a designer. You just have to ask yourself the question - "Is this a multiplayer game?"

For MMOs - Randomized loot makes sense. You immediately grant an item that if it cannot be used - will get sold to someone else or traded. You create interaction between players since now the sweet Rare Bow that your Mage has requires you to look for an Archer that wants to buy it. And if you get such a drop AGAIN? Sell it again. It grants you money to buy your own item eventually. Due to the LARGE AMOUNTS of players - there are enough archers to buy the bows. 

And single player? Crafting is better. If the bow drops once - its alright. But if you get it again while having only one archer - it will feel bad. And there is no benefit outside of forcing the player to grind a specific monster group for a long time. Just make sure that items bought in the shop are different from the ones you craft. 

Just a short word about complex crafting systems.

If the game is not your standard story-driven RPG, but instead heavily focuses on the way you create items - the crafting system should be complex. Mining Ore, Smelting it, Hammering it into the desired shape and then applying it with other materials is what the players of these games are LOOKING FOR. Minecraft players that build things in Survival Mode are the type of people that get this - they want to build a majestic castle, but they enjoy the whole process of gathering and preparing the materials. Their castle is a testament of their work and time they spent on the game. Especially that outside of that work - there ain't much to do anyway. No story to follow, no complex battles. 

So just adjust the system to the game - make sure it is simple enough for the Story based games and complex enough for the others. 

(sorry for the essay btw)

 

[captainproton]

I really liked how Dragon Quest IX for the DS used their alchemy system. You collected items either from the map or from monster drops, took them to the alchemy pot and either experimented or used a recipe you found to get something new. Sometimes these items only satisfy fetch quests, but t was actually pretty satisfying to create custom gear for your characters. Of course, this game did change your sprite to reflect your gear, so you actually saw your characters waering their custom armor, but it wouuld be tricky and time-consuming to do the same thing with an RM game.

 

[Eschaton]

Time sink.

Random drops sink.

Exemplified in FFX and Skyrim.

 

[Harmill]

What this solves is the problem of dropping pointless loot. Let's say that I have a White Mage, Black Mage, Knight and Thief in my party. If a Knight Sword drops - I am super happy. When I get the White Staff - Super Happy as well. Knight sword again - ok..... Black Wand - Super happy. Knight Sword again - darn it... White Staff - oh come on! Black Wand - Seriously? Knight Sword - ....... Knight Sword again - For #%$^ sake! Where is the #%^$$^ Thief Knife already?!?!

Now, if monsters drop crafting materials instead - the player will just forge his required items. He still spends time farming monsters but his frustration levels will be lower, since he will not "forge randomly" the same item. If you wish to add rare weapons - you just add a rare material. Like, let's say rare weapons require a Diamond that has a 5% chance to drop. If it drops - you now know one of your party members can get a rare item of your choice. 

I think this is the key. I've never thought of the benefits of crafting systems in this way, and I appreciate the insight. The more RPGs I play, the sicker I get with RNG, and random drops (trying to find that "rare" drop) gets less and less fun, and I like, and can relate, to your example of getting frustrated with the Thief Knife not dropping. I like the notion that a crafting system allows you to use the materials to forge what you want.

With that said, I'd personally stay away from "rare" material drops, too, because that's not really solving the problem if you continue to prevent the player from forging a piece of equipment simply because he can't get the rare material to drop. I dislike the idea that "because you got lucky and got this rare material drop, you can forge this awesome piece of equipment". It's a reward for being lucky, and that's not how I'd prefer my players to "earn" a reward. In Event Encounter systems, you can always have a tough monster in an area that takes more skill/strategy/time to defeat and drops those rare materials with certainty instead.

 

[Curia Chasea]

With that said, I'd personally stay away from "rare" material drops, too, because that's not really solving the problem if you continue to prevent the player from forging a piece of equipment simply because he can't get the rare material to drop. I dislike the idea that "because you got lucky and got this rare material drop, you can forge this awesome piece of equipment". It's a reward for being lucky, and that's not how I'd prefer my players to "earn" a reward. In Event Encounter systems, you can always have a tough monster in an area that takes more skill/strategy/time to defeat and drops those rare materials with certainty instead.

I'd say it depends on how the designer wants to distribute the rare items. Your idea is great, however I'll show a scenario in defense of the random drop, ok?

Let's say that the rare material is dropped 100% guaranteed by boss monsters and grants the creation of a special accessory that can be equipped by anyone - like a ring of Magic Attack +50%, Strength +50%, etc. There are 10 such accessories to forge, 10 bosses in the game with the 11th Final Boss. However every small monster has something like a 0.1% chance to drop this rare material. 

Now - let's say the game does not allow you to make more than 1 of each accessory, however you can always cannibalize the rare material to create a Potion of Full HP, MP, TP and Status recovery (full party effect). So, the player will face 3 different scenarios:

1 - Might never get a rare material as a normal drop - never has a problem with that since he has no clue they even WOULD drop. Enjoys the game without it.

2 - Gets a random chance of getting 1 or more such drops - is happy since he is "lucky" and could complete his builds faster. Excess boss drops become the useful consumable item. 

3 - Farms for the rare materials because he wishes to do so. Plays the game longer. 

Of course the values and items to be forged can vary. I wouldn't condemn the random drop really, just.... make it in good taste. Make it feel like an "awesome lucky reward" and not a "boring task". 

 

[Harmill]

The random loot drop doesn't bother me if the item can be obtained through alternative means. The other major factor that I didn't mention, is that I'm only against rare random loot drops when the game makes it a GOAL for the player to obtain one of every item, such as the Collector's Books in Tales games. If there is no such goal, then it means little to me that there is a rare weapon drop that has no alternative means to obtain. That weapon will probably be outdated in a dungeon or two anyways. All I want to make sure to convey, is that RNG-heavy systems like Loot Drops are easy ways to make your game less fun and more frustrating, and should be looked at carefully. If your game has other systems that work cooperatively with your random loot drops, (such as your example of bosses with guaranteed rare drops), then it's not going to have that negative impact I've experienced so much recently.

Here is an example that's fresh in my mind. I played Ni No Kuni earlier this year, and that game has a Crafting System where the crafting materials are obtain as random loot drops or rewards for completing quests.

So right off the bat, we at least have an alternative means to obtain materials than the random loot drops. Complete quests and you can earn some of the rarer materials. You won't be able to get enough rare materials to complete every item, though, but it's a start.

Once you reach the end-game, there are a LOT of ultimate equipments (ultimate sword, ultimate axe, ultimate gun, ultimate armour, ultimate claws, etc, etc). There are super rare materials that have an insanely low drop chance. The game makes it SUCH a hassle to obtain those ultimate equipments, that it quickly becomes a nuisance, and detracts from my overall experience playing the game. It is within my nature and play style, to try and obtain the best equipment, fight the toughest bosses, etc, and games that actively make it annoying and frustrating to do so are not designing the game with "fun factor" in mind. If you get sick and tired of spending 5 hours grinding for the loot drops and only finding 2 out of the 15 that you need, Ni No Kuni's optional boss (and toughest boss in the game) at the very least has a 100% chance to drop a RANDOM rare material. There are perhaps 10 different rare materials. So every time you defeat this boss (you can fight him as many times as you want, but he takes about 10-15 minutes to beat even when you're at max level), you have a 10% chance to find the material you actually want. This isn't a perfect solution, but it was nice to have a guaranteed chance of finding SOMETHING. If I was to propose a fix for that, allow the player to choose which rare material they get from the boss.Because otherwise, I'm still being subjected to RNG crap.

So please please please, people, don't do what Ni No Kuni did and subject the player to RNG madness to get the best equipment. I see that as an example of what to AVOID in crafting systems. That game was an overall good game, but its RNG mechanics leave a very bitter aftertaste that I don't feel is necessary.

In closing, RNG needs to be handled carefully if you make a conscious decision to design aspects of your game around it. Crafting systems included. Don't needlessly give your players reasons to get frustrated with your game.

 

[Napdevil]

As a serious pack rat, I tend to dislike games with complex crafting systems because my inventory inevitably ends up looking like this:

-Scrap metal x 50

-Useless Rock x 20

-Gun Powder x 40

-Energy Cell x 30

-Duct Tape x 10

...

...

-Stuff I actually use x 5

Speaking for myself, I like crafting to have some form of narrative structure: find the hilt here, get the blade from this guy, steal the jewel from the evil dragon, then combine all the components to create Excalibur! That way, the process feels like a journey rather than a grind. It also helps immensely if the item has a unique backstory as well.

You can go one step further and allow unique artifacts to be combined into a sort of "legendary" item: Hammer of Thunder + Girdle of Titan Strength = Blessed Hammer of Thor, or something to that effect. I saw this system in an old CRPG and it worked pretty well; having to assemble all the pieces through a series of quests really gave each legendary/unique item an epic feel.

 

[Curia Chasea]

-was gonna say something but decided its a whole other topic (Culture and how it affects games)-

I completely understand why Ni no Kuni annoyed you. Then again - these games will always perform this practice as in that culture it is not considered a flaw. Then again - we might just make the grind enjoyable in itself to soften the impact. 

-also was going to make an essay about making the grind fun but decided to skip it-

 

[Ashton]

With that said, I'd personally stay away from "rare" material drops, too, because that's not really solving the problem if you continue to prevent the player from forging a piece of equipment simply because he can't get the rare material to drop. I dislike the idea that "because you got lucky and got this rare material drop, you can forge this awesome piece of equipment". It's a reward for being lucky, and that's not how I'd prefer my players to "earn" a reward. In Event Encounter systems, you can always have a tough monster in an area that takes more skill/strategy/time to defeat and drops those rare materials with certainty instead.

My thoughts on the "rare" materials are that they are only dropped by monsters in a specific, hard-to-get-to region/dungeon, but drop at a high rate (lets say 50% just so there is still *some* feel of being lucky)

Hilariously enough the whole "quest+craft for an epic weapon" is how I handled it on my old Minecraft server (with CustomNPCs) you had to go collect sword shards from bosses, craft the crossbar from a plethora of hard-to-get but reasonably accessable materials (1 diamond, 1 ruby, 1 emerald, 1 saphire + 16 gold ingots) and get the hilt's gemstone from another quest, then you had to find the 1 NPC who could forge them together and finally you could get the God Slayer --- the only weapon that could actually kill the ultimate boss (who obviously was optional since it was MC) without spending HOURS fighting him (since he had something like 99,999hp) --- The sad irony is the weapon was one-time-use and could never be reforged (though it could be used on any boss or even for PKing if you were insane)

and @ curia: I dont mind the "Essay" in fact I appreciate it, I never really took the time to think about crafting systems that way. I might have to rethink including some form of minor crafting system since I'm not exactly generous with the GP I give out in monster drops

 

[Eschaton]

As a serious pack rat, I tend to dislike games with complex crafting systems because my inventory inevitably ends up looking like this:

-Scrap metal x 50

-Useless Rock x 20

-Gun Powder x 40

-Energy Cell x 30

-Duct Tape x 10

...

...

-Stuff I actually use x 5

Speaking for myself, I like crafting to have some form of narrative structure: find the hilt here, get the blade from this guy, steal the jewel from the evil dragon, then combine all the components to create Excalibur! That way, the process feels like a journey rather than a grind. It also helps immensely if the item has a unique backstory as well.

You can go one step further and allow unique artifacts to be combined into a sort of "legendary" item: Hammer of Thunder + Girdle of Titan Strength = Blessed Hammer of Thor, or something to that effect. I saw this system in an old CRPG and it worked pretty well; having to assemble all the pieces through a series of quests really gave each legendary/unique item an epic feel.

If a game encourages pack-ratting, then those items are clearly useless, or too awesome to use.  Part of it comes from the Antidote Effect. 

Since it's what I'm playing right now, I'm going to use it as an example, but Final Fantasy X took steps to make sure that all those items you were accumulating were being put to good use.  What step was that?  Freakin' item crafting.

Of course, it being a JRPG, you could only really craft the good stuff after hours and hours of luck-based freakin' farming.

In short, item crafting is good if there is a decent challenge behind the abundance of crafting materials.  If that challenge involves grinding and farming, then I probably won't make use of the crafting feature.  Crafting MUST be optional.  Period.  You shouldn't have to craft to win the game.

 

[Zoltor]

If you're gonna add a crafting system, make it a integral part of the game, don't just treat it as a bonus/stand alone feature in the game, 

 

[Ashton]

If you're gonna add a crafting system, make it a integral part of the game, don't just treat it as a bonus/stand alone feature in the game, 

Now this is an opinion in direct contrast to what everyone else is saying! Would you mind elaborating on why you think it should be required if implimented?

 

[Zoltor]

Now this is an opinion in direct contrast to what everyone else is saying! Would you mind elaborating on why you think it should be required if implimented?

There are tons of ways you can do this. Etrian Odyssey 3, and Mana Kharmai are 2 prime examples of this.

In my game, I'm using a crafting system that requires recipee books to make(where do many of the more desireable books come from you may ask, why super rare monster drops ofcourse, thus making a already addictive treasure hunting system, even more so), furthermore every piece of equipment, is gonna have a unique/additional special ability(so It's not even a only higher stat thing). With the exception of the Ancient Cave side quest, pretty much all the best equipment is gonna require crafting.

There will no doubt be quests that are based on crafting as well.

There will still be equipment shops, but most of the bought equipment will be low key(lol so not intended, but woot woot people could do a no crafting challenge run if they choose, although I doubt they'll beable to survive any of the higher leveled side quests, so they'll be forced to skip those, and the end game areas are gonna be a nightmare without crafted gear)

As to why I think it should more or less be required, because otherwise what's the point of having a crafting system to beginwith then? The crafting system should make a big impact on the gameplay, otherwise it defeats the purpose, 

 

[Eschaton]

Well, let me rephrase:

If crafting is required to beat the game, don't make the player farm for crafting components.  Don't.  Don't artificially inflate your game by forcing the player to farm for crafting components.  Hey!  *throws shoe at you*  Don't make the player farm in order to beat the game.  Forced farming and grinding forces the narrative (which is usually the draw of any ERPG) to - hang on *drinks*  - GRIND to a freakin' halt.

 

[Zoltor]

Well, let me rephrase:

If crafting is required to beat the game, don't make the player farm for crafting components.  Don't.  Don't artificially inflate your game by forcing the player to farm for crafting components.  Hey!  *throws shoe at you*  Don't make the player farm in order to beat the game.  Forced farming and grinding forces the narrative (which is usually the draw of any ERPG) to - hang on *drinks*  - GRIND to a freakin' halt.

It goes without saying, that the more crafting is essential, the easier the materials for the most part should be to get.

Minus all the rare rescipee materials, the materials will generally be common, and uncommon drops. Furthermore there will be material shops throughout the game(not to mention in treasure boxes). On top of that, there's a special city in my game, that is upgradeable(each shop in the city is upgradeable as are the special facilities), and there is indeed a crafting material shop there. Once you unlock the ability to travel to that city, as long as you're not in a dungeon, you can instantly travel there, and when you leave the city, you end up back in the exact spot you were at, when you teleported to the city, so that shop will always be available(you just need to keep upgrading it, so the shop gets better, and better materials)

If all you want to do, is beat the game, the crafting system Isn't gonna slow things down one bit, but if you want to beat all the side quests, be a rare equipment collector, ect, It's gonna require a bunch of work, and some luck sure as hell wouldn't hurt.

 

[Ashton]

Reading these two viewpoint, I have a suggestion:

What if crafting was required for every-other-tier of armor/weapons? Like you start with lvl 1 and can but lvl 2, have to craft lvl 3, can but lvl 4, etc... that way if you craft, you can get better gear faster, but the game is a noticeably harder. (or possibly only every 3rd tier (2, 5, 7, etc) is purchasable... BUT, the game *can* we won without ever crafting, it just will mean you take twice as long dealing damage to the boss and need twice as many high-potions as if you bothered to craft the ultimate armor and weapon.

Thoughts?