Thoughts on Games that 'Make you Kill'?

watermark

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So what are your thoughts on games that allow you to dole out violence in a realistic setting, whether for survival reasons or sadistic glee? Unlike say slaying fantasy orcs or dragons, I am talking about games that allow you to be a murderer, robber, or even a rapist. I think there's several veins of this:


Real Criminal Simulation: Where you get to play the role of a modern day criminal. The most famous of these is of course the Grand Theft Auto series, where you can kill, rob, or even throw people into a meat grinder. Or some of the infamous Japanese h-games that allow you to be a rapist.


Post Apocalypse: Whether nuclear or zombie, a game that puts you in a 'everyone for herself' survival situation. You kill or be killed. You steal or go hungry. Game such as 'This War of Mine' or any zombie survival game.


Murderer Game: A situation that basically says 'You must kill everyone else in this room/island/restricted area. If you don't do it we'll blow your head off.'  Such as Japanese series Danganroppa, Battle Royale. Or the popular Hunger Games.


These games explore the darkest side of humanity. Often forcing you to face moral dilemmas: What would you do if you were in this situation? And what if you could get away with it? Would you still do 'the right thing' even if it means your death?
 
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InBlast

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I'm not against violent games. Usually, I like them, because the tend to be more mature than classics games. 

even a rapist
Just this, I can't. Rape is something I can't handle. I stopped at the first episode of Westworld because a rape was implied, even if it seems to be a really good series.


But these violent game need a good, a really good story. You will not slay 10 people because it's fun. There should be a reason, and a good one. With moral dilemma.
 

Ms Littlefish

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Violence for the objective of survival is fine. But, I struggle with anything that is overkill or plain cruel. It's not even necessarily that it's gross. There's just a very strong "human switch" in my brain that I cannot turn off. I recognize it's fiction but a ton of gore, and especially reasonless gore, just ends up making me feel pretty sad and icky. 
 

Niten Ichi Ryu

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Even though some missions in GTA can be assassinations, I'd consider it a game that "lets" you kill more than "makes" you kill. You do not have to become a psycho killer when you play them (even as Trevor). In the end any war FPS is more a makes you kill than a GTA. Even assassin's creed is more of a killer game.


games where murder is an objective are rather different, and sometimes really bad taste, like Carmaggedon.


games about criminality could be interesting but too often, murder is of no consequence on you or on the story. Without catharsis, that's not always mentaly healthy.


Rape games are a definitive no-no.
 

Prodigy 1216

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I've heard from 'someone' that a game with mature content like sex(sorry if illegal word) is still acceptable. Rape on the other hand is an act of one-sided violence, which is highly prohibited in the world of gaming. Anyway game that makes me kill so much is 'Rust', a game where 'that thing is mine' or 'yours are mine' is actually fun but extremely annoying.
 

Wavelength

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It straight-out hurts me to kill people in games.  If the game is about killing people (e.g. doing so is the primary gameplay, e.g. Manhunt), I simply will not play the game.  I also have a really hard time playing games like SOCOM or GTA - it's something I can only do with friends and when in the right mood.  It doesn't make me feel good to shoot people.  Even in a game where you kill people for well-explained plot reasons (Final Fantasy), or as part of semi-necessary gameplay (Elder Scrolls, Tales Series), I tend to wish that the game gave you a little more flexibility in how you deal with things.


I get that some people do get catharsis or fun out of doing this kind of stuff in video games and I have no problem with that.  I just wish that more often it were "you can kill people" rather than "you must kill people".


Oddly, if it's presented in a cartoon/fantasy way (Super Mario, Star Ocean, Recettear), I don't feel the same compunction about killing "monsters" or aggressive animals in games (though I dislike needing to kill anything that won't fight back).  Sometimes I run around in a gleeful power fantasy just waiting for monsters to spawn so I can slaughter them.  And I find it very weird that I can find that fun to do in a video game, because I'm the type that will, for example, spend time catching bugs in my home and take them outside unharmed rather than smashing them.  Something about the idea of "they are (literally) monsters" frees me to feel like aggression and violence are okay, and I guess that would be a really dark rabbit hole to jump down if I were to try to figure out why.
 

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in real life, whenever i find a bug inside i bring it outside. Which is why i loved undertale. the pacifist route was second nature


the thing i like about undertale is you can choose whether or not to kill anyone. sure once i beat the pacifist route i was done with the game and put it down for good, but honestly id love to see a more mature version (in tone, not nessicarily content) of undertale where the killing isnt mindless so i might actually choose that route
 

watermark

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@Niten Ichi Ryu The thing with GTA is that many missions require you to kill so and so in order to advance, at least in 3 and before, haven't played 4 after yet. So I think the game kinda railroads the player into killing at times. Also we all know how easy it is to run over people in GTA. 


I suppose there is still a huge difference between gaming simulation and reality. It doesn't bother me to play GTA, but I would get really sick if asked to say go stab someone with a knife in real life. Also, I heard through grapevine that a friend of a friend had to quit being a policeman because he couldn't stand seeing real blood and decayed bodies at a crime scene. It would just make him sick. And he supposedly did all these psychological testing and simulation and passed with flying colors. But when faced with the real thing, couldn't stomach it.


Still, we know that killing games such as GTA sell very well, despite all the bad press and protesting. Why the fascination with simulated violence? Is it human nature to be attracted to life/death situations?


Which reminds me: Is there a really violent RPG Maker game you guys know of that's like this?
 
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Engr. Adiktuzmiko

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Still, we know that killing games such as GTA sell very well, despite all the bad press and protesting. Why the fascination with simulated violence? Is it human nature to be attracted to life/death situations?


I think it's because it allows us to let out our primal instincts without needing to think about moral and other consequences. and yes, I do believe that it is human nature to be attracted to such situations, our primal instinct is to fight for our survival after all.


Sadly, to some people this does extend to actually making them want to do it more in real life which then leads to really bad situations. 


It's a risky thing, for most it leads to no negative effects (or it can even be positive as it allows them to release their darkness not allowing it to build up) but for some it invokes the darkness in them to unleash into the real world.
 

Niten Ichi Ryu

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lets be honest, % of people who would start killing being influenced by gta is really low or even inexistant and they are people which had already a serious problem before (so called psychopats). Like mass shooters aren't driven by COD abuse, just by their own madness. Violent games don't make people psychopats, its psychopats who like violent games (and violence in general). As said the main issue here is catharsis and truly psychopaths can't experience it anyway. But normal humans do and even when killing someone in GTA, we know its bad.


And yes in gta you sometimes have to kill to progress, but in the end in hit man or assassin's creed too. Even more so in COD.


"Fascination with violence" is part of human nature (though its rather reductive to express it like this) and always been. Ancient Greece had no video games, but went to watch plays that showed extreme violence of murder, rape and incest. Experiencing trough a media allows us to reflect on the act, and for normal human beings to experience Catharsis.
 
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PsychicToaster

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There has been no factual evidence across decades of studies that shows any correlation between violent media and violent actions. Let's put that nonsense to bed right now. It's been studied more than enough and I'm posting this so we can avoid some sort of stupid moral debate on that topic. xD. This pernicious idea makes all gamers look like closet psychopaths that are two more in-game kills from going postal. Let's not perpetuate what the anti-game nuts want. 
 
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Niten Ichi Ryu

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That nonsense was never really taken out of the bed anyway... as said, while disagreeing with adiktuzmimo, only psychopats wont think about morale or consequences. Catharsis IS without doubt a mechanism of the human mind.


More so the intrinsical question here was why does violence sells?


A possible answer: We are not by nature psychopats, but we might be by nature perverts.
 
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bustedradio

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Hm, this is kind of a hard question for me.


I really don't like game where you have to kill people in a modern setting and I really hate playing as the "bad guy/criminal". This is why I don't play a lot of GTA games. I do like killing people and things in fantasy setting or modern setting that are over the top though.


For a fantasy example, the modern Fallout games come to mind. I'm perfectly okay when it comes down to gunning people mostly because they're always going to be hostile no matter what and it's a post-apocalyptic setting. It's similar enough to the modern world, but still different enough for me disconnect it from real life. This also applies to Skyrim.


For over the top examples, the later Dead Rising games and Saints Row games comes to mind. You get to dress up your characters in silly clothing, make wacky weapons, and use them on unsuspecting people or enemies.
 

Dr. Delibird

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Anything that is presented by the game as a "monster" is ok for me to kill. This includes humans. If the game shows me that a dude named Smug Ahole is a cerial rapist and a child beater, I have less than 0 qualms with killing him. If the characters are trully monstrous in nature they are super easy for me to kill (from a morale/mental standpoint).


I like the concept of games that do the whole "6 people enter but only one leaves" where there is some sort of "Master" messing with the peoples minds and making some sick game out of it for himself but they always trigger my paranoia so I try and stay away from them. I only like this concept when the player isn't actually one particular character but again I tend to not to play these games anyways so yeah.
 

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Well, rapist games and stuff are hard for me to say anything about because I haven't actually played one, but games where you're killing against your will but you have to are, well, first of all, ridiculously sad, second of all, much better than "I'm going to kill a bunch of people and destroy the place because I'm evil, MUHAHAHAHA!" I like when you have to kill people, and you feel remorse over it. What I do not like though, is things like Another where people decide, yeah, I'm gonna lose my mind now and start killing people in really messed up ways. If you feel the need to make a killing game, a Yandere is a pretty good approach. Psychopaths are very hard to do correctly, but it's good when they're psycho for a reason.  
 

RetroBoy

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Just this, I can't. Rape is something I can't handle. I stopped at the first episode of Westworld because a rape was implied, even if it seems to be a really good series.


Harden up. Rape is no worse than someone stabbing someone else in the face with a knife. All violence is equally horrible. The hysteria people have around rape is extremely juvenile and it shows that someone is extremely sheltered.


For example, you claim that Westworld looks REALLY GOOD but you can't enjoy it because rape was IMPLIED. So you're going without something you admittedly may enjoy or be high quality, because of a primal lizard-brain impulse. That shows an astounding lack of discipline and is a horrible shame.


I think rape can be tasteless, but its a useful tool in a narrative if handled correctly.


For instance, have you seen MERLIN (1998)?










It is three hours long, but it is (in my opinion) the greatest adaption of Arthurian Legend ever filmed. It is true to the source material for the most part, creative, exciting and insightful. However, in this story Arthur is essentially raped by his sister to create the heir which will lead to the destruction of his grand legacy.


This is a GOOD use of rape in storytelling. It is all about how the tool is used. The "I can't even" snowflake response says that you (as an individual) need to grow up and get in touch with reality. I am not saying that to pick on you or be nasty, I am just trying to give you some advice that will help you function better in "the real world."


Outrage Culture is the worst thing to have happened in human history since a dude with a funny stash started gassing people he didn't like. Can you imagine that, a grown man, fighting fit, blisters swelling beneath his skin, the liquid within them hardening, his lungs melting as he struggles to live, suffocating on his own blood... until ultimately, helpless, he is swallowed up by panic and the cold oblivion of death.


I'd wager he'd take rape over that any day of the week.


As for violence in video games, I am so-so about it. I prefer fun fantasy/magic games and think that rape simulators and murder simulators are rather depraved and juvenile. I would never buy one, but stuff like Mortal Kombat can be fun. So, its really hit and miss.
 
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Diretooth

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This is a multifaceted question that requires a multifaceted answer. I may not be the person to give that answer, but maybe I can help towards that ultimate goal.


  For many games, and many stories, there will always be elements that people will not like. Games that allow you to do whatever you want regardless of context can be enjoyable, again, regardless of context. Stories exist to allow us to explore our own natures, whether that is us fighting crime or causing it, we know where we draw the line at. Death and killing are primal to our natures, it's reflected in our fears and sometimes our darkest dreams. Everyone has rage, everyone has, at one point or another, wanted to kill someone, be it an adult or a child. How we react to these thoughts determines who we are as people.


  Video games that allow us to act out actions give us a safe, stable scenario in which to explore that which we cannot explore in real life, and books and other media do as well. Video games are unique, in a sense, that we guide the character to our whims, whether for good or evil. You can just as easily find video game cruelty potential in a light-hearted cute game as you can find video game caring potential in even the most depraved of 'murder simulators' (Note, this refers to games built with the express intent of exploring murder and killing in the context of the main character or other characters in detail.)


  When it first came out, DOOM was considered by the Moral Guardians (Those who took it upon themselves to decry and have rejected certain media) to be nothing more than a mere murder simulator, or worse in their minds, a means of recruiting gullible children into a satanic cult. (Nevermind the fact that you were literally killing the forces of Hell itself.) However, it has been shown that, since the advent of the first person shooter, crime had actually gone down, most strikingly around the point when DOOM had been released. The catharsis factor inherent in such games thus had a secondary purpose, whether or not the game itself had an excuse plot or not.


 Games like GTA have, inherently, both cruelty and caring potential. You can just as easily brutally kill a prostitute as you can stop a thief, even though the story lies heavily in the criminal actions of the player character. In Fable, you could be good or bad depending on your actions, and in Jade Empire, which in this case was an attempt at not having a good/evil dichotomy (Open Palm, Closed Fist) your choices shaped who you were and how you were seen. Sadly, due to design choices in the story and how actions were handled, it became another good/evil dichotomy instead of one focusing on protecting the weak or letting them fend for themselves. Even then, there were choices that were closer to what they had intended. As an added example, the game, Undertale, explored the themes of good/evil in video games and what would, realistically, happen if you chose either path. In the 'good' path, you manage to free everyone thanks to your stalwart pacifism and desire for friendship. In the 'evil' path, you kill (almost) everyone and at the point of no return, you have your control wrested from you, and when you are given one final choice, the main character, predictably, goes against you if you finally say no.


  However, in the exploration of these themes, many people get caught up in more trivial issues, such as whether or not games make people more likely to kill. As with any medium, they make you no more likely to kill than a book or movie. If a person is inclined to kill someone, they will do it, regardless of the justification. Humans, after all, are animals, killing is in our blood. Some choose to kill others of their species, some choose to kill other, and in their minds, lesser animals. The justification will change for each person, and not all who kill enjoy it. A soldier in an army can kill a person for different reasons. Maybe they do indeed enjoy killing, maybe they did it to save their life. My brother, for instance, blew the arm off of an insurgent in Afghanistan. He didn't enjoy the feeling, but he was struck with the realization that he had completely changed one person's life with his actions. (That isn't to say he didn't regret it. He did, after all, save other lives in the line of duty. But, that is his personal dilemma, and he will decide how it effects him on his own terms.)


  In my own stories, I personally explore these overarching themes because some don't get the proper exposure in media for what they truly are. Murder, rape, everything that I can bring myself to write for the sake of exploring the theme properly. While obviously a bad thing, characters in my stories have encountered characters, especially major ones, who had either been or witnessed rape. How it effected their lives and how it effected their view of the world is the focus of the themes, rather than the act of itself. Some people will never appreciate this, some will enjoy it for all of the wrong reasons, yet it is for the exposure of what that theme is, particularly, especially in this age where rape is often blamed on the victim rather than the offender, that makes it worthwhile, even when I feel no worse than the offender in my story. The exploration of this theme, (And why I even mentioned it in the first place,) is as multifaceted as the question and answer. By exploring the theme, I gain better understanding of it. By exploring the theme, and sharing it, I potentially instill that understanding into those who would read my stories. By reading the story, those who gain better understanding learn to empathize, even if minutely, with victims. Those who see it as a glorification learn nothing and further promote ignorance. Those who gain pleasure from it are as they were before, yet those who would enjoy it, but gain understanding of why their actions are deemed bad, (Because in their minds, they are often in the right,) potentially understand why their actions are deplorable. While this last may seem like a pipe dream, it can and has happened.


Now, I don't expect everyone to have read my answer, again, this was not a simple question, and perhaps I didn't answer some of it. But, that is the beauty of discussions such as these, especially when all answers are there for people to see. Each smaller answer, each larger answer, all become one singular answer, told in many parts. One mind cannot comprehend all things, multiple minds can, and if one mind is opened, even a little bit, by another, understanding can be achieved.
 

leenat40

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And the point about a post apocalyptic idea leads very well to my new game! 


It's bassicaly what you described, but also with revenge.


(And it's episodic, EPISODE 2 OUT NOW)


If anyone wants, please try it and give me some feedback. 
 

Kes

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@leenat40 It might very well have resonances with your game, but nevertheless, this is not the place to seek feedback on it.


Please do not hijack a thread in order to advertise your game.
 

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