Tips on Dealing with Steam

[Dark Gaia]

Not so much on its Steam page, but if you look in the comments for other RPG Maker games, To the Moon comes up quite a lot -- people use it to defend RPG Maker and the trolls usually just revert to their "oh, it's RPG Maker so it's crap" stuff.

Such a shame, as that game has all the critical acclaim neccesary to hold its own as a "proper" game. Hell, they sell physical copies of it at the EB Games where I live.

 

[DavidGil]

Not so much on its Steam page, but if you look in the comments for other RPG Maker games, To the Moon comes up quite a lot -- people use it to defend RPG Maker and the trolls usually just revert to their "oh, it's RPG Maker so it's crap" stuff.

Such a shame, as that game has all the critical acclaim neccesary to hold its own as a "proper" game. Hell, they sell physical copies of it at the EB Games where I live.

I can't find anything so far, but I'll definitely keep looking. It's a shame like you said, and it just goes to show that no matter what people do, there will be complaining. It's a problem with the internet in general.

Myself, I do own To The Moon on GOG.com and I've played a bit of it, but haven't finished it. What I played seemed to be of a rather high quality and matches what I've heard. Not sure why I didn't finish it. I just tend to buy games, play a while, then move onto something else. It certainly wasn't a problem with the game itself anyway.

I do intend to finish it at some point.

 

[kerbonklin]

 and battle systems [and screen] are unique among commercial RPG Maker games.

Gee are you sure about that?

Cause this looks pretty default/bland to me. No custom windows, looks like you just shoved in Yanfly Battle Engine, your turn-order thing is in a horrible spot compared to the edge of the screen with no kind of supporting design, you shoved in the default Basic Mouse System script without changing the default cursor. Main four commands seem pretty basic.

I even showed this to one of my friends who knows nothing of RPG Maker and he said it looks bland/terrible/boring.

*Taken from your Steam page for the game*

---------------------------------------

Also nobody should ever use the argument that there's nothing unique anymore. The newest recent unique thing for RPGs that comes to my mind was Bravely Default, and it was a pretty good battle system.

 

[crimcrim]

Make a game devoid of RTP and it won't get trashed on Steam

People know what RPG Maker is now, and they hate the RTP, for good reason. Steam is the big leagues. Well it was, now it doesn't seem to be anymore with all this crap getting published left and right. Crap that ruins it for people that spend a lot of time, money and effort into making their game FOR Steam. And then... you see crap posted.

 

[Dark Gaia]

There are RPG Maker games on Steam that have no RTP in them. They still have the requisite "RPG Maker, bleh" comments. Many of the later Aldorlea games use their own custom resources. The admin of the Steam page has still had to crack down on the RPG Maker hate.

@kerbonklin: Whether my game is "bland" is not the issue. It's the stigma associated with RPG Maker. Outside of Steam, my games has been a fantastic success. It sold hundreds of copies in the first week and the official forums were booming. People who are unfamiliar with RPG Maker in general thought it was a great game. Why don't you actually play it instead of saying it's terrible just because it uses the RTP? Hell, I'd even be happy to give you a free Steam key.

I do take personal offense to you saying my game is generic or bland, without even playing it though. How can you comment on the gameplay and mechanics just from looking at a picture? You don't know how that battle flows, for example. You don't know how the turn system works or how the player's actions influence the turn order. I'm not one of those people who used the engine to churn out a basic game with no effort involved. Outside of Steam, the games I have released have a pretty good reputation, despite using the RTP. My One Night trilogy was even in PC Gamer, and Legionwood 1 has been on cover discs.

It's just that inside of Steam, the engine has a horrible reputation. My game sales elsewhere have been much better than I originally expected. People who play Aveyond and the like have still bought and enjoyed it, even though they've seen all of the assets before.

 

[amerk]

The problem, like you said, is with Steam.

While RM is the blunt of their dislike, you also see the same people criticizing almost anything that's a platformer or 2D rpg, and you get a similar assault of the "retro, classic, 2D haters" as you do with the "RM haters". So while RPG Maker is widely known and criticized there, especially if it uses or references anything similar to the default RTP, the real problem is that Steam users don't care for what they view as oldschool rpg's (pretty much anything that doesn't have a zombie, anything that's not a shooter, and almost everything that's not 3D).

However, if the rumors are even remotely true, then none of this will matter over the next several months. Rumor has it that Valve is planning to change GL (or do away with it entirely) and make it easier for indie developers to get through the gates. The downside, of course, is that if they open the floodgates, then every Dick and Jane with a crappy RM clone is going to try and shove it onto Steam, thus drowning out the really good ones and creating even more bias and hate towards RPG Maker.

And so the cycle of hate will continue, ad infinitum.

 

[Nathanial]

All personal opinion stuff which has nothing to do with me being an RMW staff member:

The engine has a horrible reputation on Steam because it's ease of use allows anyone to pick it up and use it. Including massive amounts of people that make horrible games. 

Don't take offense because he says your battle system looks bland. That's not a personal insult. That's an opinion he's entitled to have. Your battle system screenshot doesn't do much to show off how unique and awesome it is. Your screenshots and trailer (in general) are supposed to be the best material to represent your game so that people don't need to "try it" to walk away with some sort of idea on quality...

I'm likely wrong, but I was under the impression that even Aldorlea's games that have "custom" resources are mostly edits (I'm not talking about his .. interesting character art. I mean tiles, sprites, etc). His games, even using custom resources, still very much look and feel like an RPG Maker game. His games aren't really a good example of what you're trying to say. 

It isn't a matter of "well if you tried it, regardless if it's RTP you'd enjoy it!". No offense, but that argument became stagnant years ago. It's completely valid for people to see the RTP and brush it over. They don't owe you the opportunity to try your game. If you use the RTP then expect to get hate for it. Does it mean your game is automatically bad? Of course not, but you're never going to convince that to a community that's jaded of seeing bad games made with the RTP.

Having an actual unique feel DOES matter. Hell, all things considered your presentation is the most important damn thing. When somebody is checking out your game page on Steam you have seconds to make an impact that's strong enough to convince people to try/buy it. If in those seconds if people see your game is more RTP than it's not, you're going to attract much more negative attention. 

It will not matter how good your game may be. You will be ignored and/or targeted by the hate machine. It's why I never finished my series I was working on until recent events.. I just didn't have the time, money, or energy to invest into making the game "right" so it was put on hold until I had the ability to do so. And I'm much more happy with the direction my own personal stuff is going because I've given it that love and care. It's boosted my own morale to do better in every other area. 

But I digress. The RTP is a double edged sword. It allows folks to jump in and make neat things without needing graphics, but it's also excuse for a lot of commercial devs to be flat out lazy and not give a damn. Which ruins it for even the good games that might just use the RTP due to budget constraints. 

But the world isn't fair.

The problem, like you said, is with Steam.

 

While RM is the blunt of their dislike, you also see the same people criticizing almost anything that's a platformer or 2D rpg, and you get a similar assault of the "retro, classic, 2D haters" as you do with the "RM haters". So while RPG Maker is widely known and criticized there, especially if it uses or references anything similar to the default RTP, the real problem is that Steam users don't care for what they view as oldschool rpg's (pretty much anything that doesn't have a zombie, anything that's not a shooter, and almost everything that's not 3D).

Uh... sure. Of course you get that, but you're over generalizing Steam as a whole. There's millions of dollars to be made even with 2d games. You just need to get your presentation right (for driving in initial sales, interest, etc) and let your game spread from there for being good. Marketing 101.

 

[Dark Gaia]

I guess the thing that's made me come across as shocked/concerned is that my game apparently can't distinguish itself from the legions of crappy cookie cutter RM games. I mean sure, the RTP does pretty much scream "this was made with RPG Maker", but I thought it'd be pretty obvious that my game has a little more effort put into it. I mean, take the battle screenshot, for example. In my opinion, it does distinguish the game -- right away I can see that the game 1.) doesn't use the default front-view battle system, 2.) uses a custom turn order mechanic and 3.) uses actual side view monster sprites. Anyone who is familiar with RPG Maker would immediately notice that it's a custom battle system, something that distinguishes it from the horde of clones.
 

My game may not be completely unique (it's not meant to be -- the game is even described as a "typical old-school RPG") but it should be obvious that it hasn't just used the default RPG Maker without any effort to distinguish itself. There are screenshots of some of the maps -- they don't look like they were made in two seconds. There's a screenshot of a class selection system -- that's a heavily edited Yanfly script, not a default RPG Maker mechanic. I don't mind negative feedback generally (I'm a writer -- you can't not go through 3 years of a creative writing degree without developing a thick skin) but I don't quite understand how a battle screenshot can be called "bland" when it actually does serve to show that the game isn't using default RPG Maker stuff. If it used the default battle system with no changes, then yeah -- that is bland.

The game may not distinguish itself graphically, but I think if you played a little bit you'd see that it has a lot of cool stuff that has had care and thought put into it. Hell, it wouldn't even be on Steam if it was just another RM game, it'd just be languishing somewhere in Greenlight, getting down voted for all eternity.

As for Aldorlea, I'm not entirely sure about whether he uses custom assets in all of his games, but the ones I have played (Alpha Kimori and Millenium) have minimal RTP in them. It's possible the older ones use the RTP. They still "look like" RPG Maker games, but then any 2D RPG that uses tile based graphics will. If you look closely enough, even To The Moon looks like an RPG Maker game.

 

[Mouser]

Having an actual unique feel DOES matter. Hell, all things considered your presentation is the most important damn thing. When somebody is checking out your game page on Steam you have seconds to make an impact that's strong enough to convince people to try/buy it. If in those seconds if people see your game is more RTP than it's not, you're going to attract much more negative attention. 

There is a reason so many games feature hot chicks in bikinis or armored negligee's on their box art and web pages...

The game may not distinguish itself graphically, but I think if you played a little bit

You're missing the point. If your game doesn't distinguish itself graphically, people aren't going to play a little bit.

Life is too short to play bad games. People aren't going to go searching for a 'diamond in the rough'.

 

[Dark Gaia]

So should I go with a "My Lord, click here to play RPG Maker discreetly!" trailer, then?

You're missing the point. If your game doesn't distinguish itself graphically, people aren't going to play a little bit.

Well, that's silly. Since when were graphics the deciding factor in a game? I grew up playing RPGs that all basically looked the same. It was the story and gameplay that made each one stand out. It's not like I deliberately chose to use the RTP because I'm lazy or wanted to turn a quick buck. It was the best option available to me because I didn't have a full time job at the time and also because, having used it for years, it was the art style that I was comfortable with. I was confident that I could create a good looking game with it, which I think I have done.

It hurts to have people say "you used RTP so everything else you put into this game is invalid". Who cares that I spent three years working on it? Who cares about the story, or the work put into balancing the battles, or anything else? I used the RTP, so apparently all that means nothing.

Even so, there are trolls who don't care at all about the RTP. One guy left a review saying the game had spelling errors in the intro, for example. He ended up removing it because I pointed out that game is written in British English, but in this case his feedback had nothing whatsoever to do with the RTP. He was just stretching to find some reason to say why an RPG Maker game was bad.

 

[crimcrim]

There are RPG Maker games on Steam that have no RTP in them. They still have the requisite "RPG Maker, bleh" comments. Many of the later Aldorlea games use their own custom resources. The admin of the Steam page has still had to crack down on the RPG Maker hate.

@kerbonklin: Whether my game is "bland" is not the issue. It's the stigma associated with RPG Maker. Outside of Steam, my games has been a fantastic success. It sold hundreds of copies in the first week and the official forums were booming. People who are unfamiliar with RPG Maker in general thought it was a great game. Why don't you actually play it instead of saying it's terrible just because it uses the RTP? Hell, I'd even be happy to give you a free Steam key.

No it is an issue. Welcome to commercial development. Your game is barely distinguishable from RTP. The consumer doesn't know the ins-and-outs of the engine as well as this community does, so they're hard pressed to find anything original. All they care about is the initial appearance. They don't care about your story, your gameplay or anything aside from what they can see from the trailer, most importantly visuals.

The Aldorlea games are (in my opinion) awful. They look like "slightly better RTP" which is still terrible.

None of them deserve to be on Steam. Steam isn't meant for stereotypical RPG Maker.

The problem, like you said, is with Steam.

While RM is the blunt of their dislike, you also see the same people criticizing almost anything that's a platformer or 2D rpg, and you get a similar assault of the "retro, classic, 2D haters" as you do with the "RM haters". So while RPG Maker is widely known and criticized there, especially if it uses or references anything similar to the default RTP, the real problem is that Steam users don't care for what they view as oldschool rpg's (pretty much anything that doesn't have a zombie, anything that's not a shooter, and almost everything that's not 3D).

Never, ever blame the consumer. It isn't Steam's fault that people make ****ty RPG Maker games.

I guess the thing that's made me come across as shocked/concerned is that my game apparently can't distinguish itself from the legions of crappy cookie cutter RM games. I mean sure, the RTP does pretty much scream "this was made with RPG Maker", but I thought it'd be pretty obvious that my game has a little more effort put into it. I mean, take the battle screenshot, for example. In my opinion, it does distinguish the game -- right away I can see that the game 1.) doesn't use the default front-view battle system, 2.) uses a custom turn order mechanic and 3.) uses actual side view monster sprites. Anyone who is familiar with RPG Maker would immediately notice that it's a custom battle system, something that distinguishes it from the horde of clones.

My game may not be completely unique (it's not meant to be -- the game is even described as a "typical old-school RPG") but it should be obvious that it hasn't just used the default RPG Maker without any effort to distinguish itself. There are screenshots of some of the maps -- they don't look like they were made in two seconds. There's a screenshot of a class selection system -- that's a heavily edited Yanfly script, not a default RPG Maker mechanic. I don't mind negative feedback generally (I'm a writer -- you can't not go through 3 years of a creative writing degree without developing a thick skin) but I don't quite understand how a battle screenshot can be called "bland" when it actually does serve to show that the game isn't using default RPG Maker stuff. If it used the default battle system with no changes, then yeah -- that is bland.

The game may not distinguish itself graphically, but I think if you played a little bit you'd see that it has a lot of cool stuff that has had care and thought put into it. Hell, it wouldn't even be on Steam if it was just another RM game, it'd just be languishing somewhere in Greenlight, getting down voted for all eternity.

As for Aldorlea, I'm not entirely sure about whether he uses custom assets in all of his games, but the ones I have played (Alpha Kimori and Millenium) have minimal RTP in them. It's possible the older ones use the RTP. They still "look like" RPG Maker games, but then any 2D RPG that uses tile based graphics will. If you look closely enough, even To The Moon looks like an RPG Maker game.

Dude...your game doesn't look good. It has nothing distinguishing itself from RTP games graphically, and quite frankly that's the most important part. Visuals matter, especially when you're trying to sell your game. I applaud you for pricing it fairly at least; seeing an Aldorlea game priced for $10 makes me chuckle.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, I'm being brutally honest. If you wanted to avoid all this hate on Steam you should have put yourself in the position where your game was...an actual game.

 

[Nathanial]

As for Aldorlea, I'm not entirely sure about whether he uses custom assets in all of his games, but the ones I have played (Alpha Kimori and Millenium) have minimal RTP in them. It's possible the older ones use the RTP. They still "look like" RPG Maker games, but then any 2D RPG that uses tile based graphics will. If you look closely enough, even To The Moon looks like an RPG Maker game.

Alpha Kimori isn't by Aldorlea. Not sure where Millenium stands in terms of custom content so I can't say. I can say that Alpha Kimori doesn't have a sign of RTP. It does, however, still feel like an RPG Maker game at times, but a heck of a lot less than one using the RTP. It's gameplay and story is a completely different can of worms, however.

And I strongly disagree about any 2d RPG using tile based graphics will "look like" RPG Maker. 

 

[Jesse - PVGames]

I just want to say that I have mad love for your games, Dark Gaia. I remember playing Legionwood 1 and One Night some time ago and loved them. It really impressed me how much ambiance and atmosphere you could convey with simple RPG Maker mechanics in One Night, especially. It is quite a feat to pull that off, so much props to you.

I read through the negative comments on Steam for Legionwood 2. Now, I haven't played this one, but the comments seem to be targeted more at your game itself and less on the fact that it was made in RPG Maker (although that is mentioned in passing). I looked through a couple of the other RPG Maker games on Steam and they have positive reviews (Deadly Sin 2 - I played the first one a long time ago and it was pretty unique).

It's late and I don't really know where I am going with this, so I will just say this: you have a talent, and you have had the fantastic opportunity to share it with a larger gaming audience than most people ever will. Take pride in what you have accomplished in spite of what anyone else says that might be negative. Don't let the negative stuff pull you down, because for every negative review there are probably about 10 people who are enjoying the game in silence.

 

[Dark Gaia]

If you wanted to avoid all this hate on Steam you should have put yourself in the position where your game was...an actual game.

Right. Whatever you say. Apparently I haven't even made a game. I guess I just set some formulas in the engine and called the resulting mess a game.

At this point, there probably won't even be a follow up to Legionwood 2 or any other game, for that matter. I'll stick to my writing, thanks.

Now, I haven't played this one, but the comments seem to be targeted more at your game itself and less on the fact that it was made in RPG Maker (although that is mentioned in passing).

Most of those RPG Maker bashing ones are gone now. I would have liked them to remain, but apparently some users reported them and a moderator removed them. This was before I had a developer account.

 

[crimcrim]

Right. Whatever you say. Apparently I haven't even made a game. I guess I just set some formulas in the engine and called the resulting mess a game.

At this point, there probably won't even be a follow up to Legionwood 2 or any other game, for that matter. I'll stick to my writing, thanks.

Don't be like that. You're taking the step into commercial territory. Your games have to be perfect now. You can still make games, but they'll need to cost either a lot of time or money. If you don't like the idea of that then yeah, don't make a game.

 

[Dark Gaia]

Well, in all fairness, I never had the intention of being a professional developer. To me, game development has always been a hobby. Legionwood 2 was originally going to be released for free just like all of my other games. The only reason I decided to go commercial is because with a full time job in addition to my writing projects, it was unfeasable for me to justify spending my limited free time making a game. The idea was to have my hobby support itself. The profits I make from my games help to justify spending the time creating them in the first place, time I could otherwise spend doing stuff for my job or working on my novel. That's part of the reason why I priced the game at five bucks. I'm not Aldorlea or Amaranth. All I want is to be compensated for my efforts.

I explain it a little better here in this old blog post. I don't have the time to be a "professional" developer. This isn't my day job. If it's wrong for me to want to earn a little bit of money on something that is only a hobby for me, then it's probably for the best I don't do it anymore. The only reason that the game is on Steam in the first place is because existing fans told me they wanted it on Steam. If it doesn't belong there, fine. I won't do it again.

 

[Solo]

At this point, there probably won't even be a follow up to Legionwood 2 or any other game, for that matter. I'll stick to my writing, thanks.

No! Don't let them break you like that!!


This has become so ugly. Kilim, Kerbonklin, you should be ashamed of yourselves. To tell him he hasn't even made a game? That his story, all the soul he put into his work means nothing? You obviously have never been as attached to a project as he has. You can't understand the depth of his passion.


I suffered this same thing on RMN, and it kills me to watch someone else go through it. So I choose to speak up.


Dark Gaia, again, I would plead that you not let these profoundly ignorant people break you. If anything, they're probably jealous of your success.


One more thing. Kilim said that commercial games must be perfect. This is laughable. What about the tons and tons of broken games released regularly that need patches? I'm talking "high-end" console releases. What a joke.

 

[Dark Gaia]

Thanks, Solo, but they are right, in a sense. If you're going to ask to be paid for something, you'd better do it right. By the way, I took a look at your game and I can't understand why people would say the graphics are awful. I think your game has very charming old school graphics. It looks just like something that would have come out on the SNES. If you released your game on Steam, I'm sure it would stand out better than mine has.

 

[Solo]

By the way, I took a look at your game and I can't understand why people would say the graphics are awful.

Because they couldn't stand the fact that I had made something of myself.


And, thank you.

 

[Jesse - PVGames]

One more thing. Kilim said that commercial games must be perfect. This is laughable. What about the tons and tons of broken games released regularly that need patches? I'm talking "high-end" console releases. What a joke.

Also just wanted to add to this. There are very, very few games that are released and are perfectly polished any more these days, even from AAA developers with multi-million dollar budgets. What is the first thing that happens within the first couple weeks for most new major releases? They get patched.

And another major trend I am noticing is that many games are being sold and played without even being finished. All of those 'early access' games are in Alpha or Beta phases and are nowhere near what one might consider 'commercial level', yet that doesn't stop anyone from selling them.

And seriously, don't give up on it just because of some negativity. There is no reason why, even though it is a hobby, you can't make a couple dollars from your efforts. 

After doing a couple of successful Kickstarter campaigns and making resources and such, I have learned something very important. The people who don't like your product for whatever reason will be very vocal about it. The people who love your product will simply buy it and enjoy it and you will probably never hear anything from them. People tend to vote with their wallets, so don't base your success on some negative comments on Steam or on the forums here or anywhere else.