Tips on Dealing with Steam

[whitesphere]

The biggest problem with feedback is, unfortunately, people are far more apt to leave negative feedback than positive feedback.  People who love the game are just quietly playing it, while those who hate something about it will complain loud and long.

Issac Asimov, a famous sci-fi writer was once asked if the negative reviews of his books bothered him.  His response:  "I cry so hard I can barely see my deposit slips to fill them out at the bank."

In other words, people will vote with their wallets.  If feedback has constructive criticism, or bug reports, definitely take it into consideration.  But I think commercial game development is a difficult industry, especially for the independent developer.  Especially in our niche, you need to get the game to look and play absolutely amazing off the bat, or it seems a lot of people will pass it by, no matter how awesome the game itself is.

This isn't just games either --- there are whole market specialists who get paid huge bucks solely to choose the color of a product box at the grocery store, its font size, imagery, etc.  Why?  Because the right colors and imagery can dramatically boost sales.  On Steam, where there are thousands of games, I imagine it's much more important, fair or not.

But if you don't enjoy making RPGs, it's probably good not to continue.  After all, as we all know, making a full RPG is very much a lot of work and almost needs to be a labor of love because it requires so much.  I've heard people routinely take years to make their RPGs, because of the amount of polishing, balancing and content creation required.

 

[crimcrim]

@Killim:

Sorry, but you don't get to decide what the threshold for commercial quality is when it comes to other people. You don't get to decide how much of a drive and personal investment another person should put in their game, either. If it works for you to pour in 10,000K and thousands of hours of work, great. It's not something that's required from another person, especially since you don't have actual proof that your investment's going to pay off yet. That a developer is actually engaging the community enough and trying to understand how to work with Steam better should be proof enough that they care about their game and how well their game does. Their idea of success might not mesh with your own ambitions, but that's not wrong.

Instead of chastising and belittling someone who's just dipping their feet in the commercial world, you should be more supportive of their efforts. Their success ensures a potentially bigger crowd for your game, and other RPG Maker games to come. And if their game fails, you've got a real world, practical example you can study to make your own game better (and market it better).

Pushing someone to the point of wanting to back out of game development isn't cool. Steam might feel like the big leagues, but Steam's also been a growing market for small, indie and low-budget games -- i.e. games that don't have the AAA regiment you seem to be suggesting. The expectations and requirements have changed drastically and will likely to continue to change as Steam goes through changes.

You're right, I don't. I base all my assumptions on what the consumer wants out of a title and what they expect. The amount of hours, love, money, time etc that someone put into the game as a developer doesn't matter to the consumer. All that matters is the finished product, and quite frankly; the visuals (at first glance). As we've seen most of the Steam crowd is incredibly dense and that's really all they look for. And quite frankly, I don't have the ability to decide what's commercial or not, but I sure as hell do have a greater understanding of it than most people. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm not just "making a commercial game". I've been to numerous gaming/press conventions, both as a regular person and as a developer. The latter helped me amass a wealth of contacts; I've spoken to many, many developers about their games, their hardships and their cost, I've met and befriended various people in the gaming media. I know a lot of information others simply don't, so when I say I can make a more informed opinion on the subject of commercial game development I mean it. Then again it still is just an opinion so you can interpret it as you see fit.

I'm not chastising or berating anyone. I'm giving him what he asked for, advice on his game on Steam. I even commended him for caring this much. I told him and I'll say it again, commercial game development isn't a hugbox. Someone who is "dipping their feet" into the commercial world should not start on Steam. They should start on much less prestigious platforms. His success is not tied to mine and I'll be damned if I'm going to use another persons "failure" to better my game. That approach is messed up, instead I'll do what I can to make his failure become a success, and unfortunately that means being stern and truthful in my advice.

At what point did I push him out of game development. I told him to continue his endeavors and when he has the time and money to attempt commercial again to embrace it. The Steam market will be changing very soon so I can't have a definite opinion on your last point though.

 

[Lunarea]

All that matters is the finished product, and quite frankly; the visuals (at first glance). As we've seen most of the Steam crowd is incredibly dense and that's really all they look for.

See, the problem with this is that you're basing this on the public feedback - whether it's in terms of reviews or discussions, or even talking directly to a player or two. However, the more important factor is the amount of sales and whether those numbers are actually reflected in the feedback. If there's 10 bad reviews that tell you RTP sucks, but you've seen sales in the thousands (or tens of thousands), maybe it's not as an important factor as you'd thought. Likewise, if your game is extremely customized and seems to have great reviews, poor sales would require you to look deeper and figure out where the loss is happening.

I'll give you a concrete example... We've got a few RTP-styled things in sale at our store as well as a few completely original pieces. If we were to listen to the public opinion (say Facebook, since there are lots of very vocal people there), we would be mainly offering original pieces. And yet, if you look at the sales, the RTP-styled bits outsell the original pieces.

So, you can't always take the feedback at face value, even if it seems supported by something a fellow developer said.

Not to toot my own horn, but I'm not just "making a commercial game". I've been to numerous gaming/press conventions, both as a regular person and as a developer. The latter helped me amass a wealth of contacts; I've spoken to many, many developers about their games, their hardships and their cost, I've met and befriended various people in the gaming media. I know a lot of information others simply don't, so when I say I can make a more informed opinion on the subject of commercial game development I mean it. Then again it still is just an opinion so you can interpret it as you see fit.

Great, glad to see you share your knowledge with others. However, there's no winning game development formula. What you got out of all the information could be completely different than what someone else got. How you've chosen to apply this knowledge could be something that only works in your project, and would lead to colossal failure for someone else. And even if the knowledge is completely spot-on, until you actually see it succeed in your commercial project, it's just a theory.

Someone who is "dipping their feet" into the commercial world should not start on Steam. They should start on much less prestigious platforms.

So you're telling me a developer who is given the opportunity to be on Steam should give it up because they need to start smaller first? It would be a foolish mistake to say no to Steam if they're offering to publish your game, because that offer might not happen again.

His success is not tied to mine and I'll be damned if I'm going to use another persons "failure" to better my game. That approach is messed up, instead I'll do what I can to make his failure become a success, and unfortunately that means being stern and truthful in my advice.

Admirable, but way, way off. We've had this argument many times before. If you're genuinely wanting to help someone, being blunt and "stern" without censoring is not going to have the effect you're hoping for. If you want someone to actually succeed, you don't make them feel like they're doing the wrong thing or that game development isn't for them - whether you're doing this consciously or not. You can be honest and helpful without being a jerk about it. Tempering your words has a huge effect on how well they're received overall. You don't want people to dismiss you and the valuable advice you share because they think you're an *******.

And, really, this is what my issue with your post is:

I told him to continue his endeavors and when he has the time and money to attempt commercial again to embrace it.

You don't get a say in how much time and money someone else needs to invest before they're worthy of going commercial. You can use the standard for yourself, but not for anyone else. You can encourage people to expend a little more effort, but you don't actually get to say "try again when you have more time and more money to get custom resources". Because ultimately, all you'll manage to do is alienate developers and they'll stop bothering to ask for feedback in public places.

 

[DavidGil]

As much as I'd like to discuss this, because my thoughts are very similar to Lunarea's, I think this is relevant despite the date on the thread:

http://www.hbgames.org/forums/viewtopic.php?style=26&f=77&t=71468&start=0

Many of you are familiar with Deadly Sin 2? In any case, it is Harmonic's replies you want to look at and the ones that are 'critical'.

There's one thing that's certain no matter the medium. Not everybody is going to like your work, regardless of what you do to it, and even if you make changes to appease the complainers, they may still not be happy. If they are, others will complain. With the internet being what it is, people just love to complain too and that's why people often see more negativity about a product.

As it pertains to RPG Maker games and Steam, if the developer of Deadly Sin 2 can sink a lot of money into his product and utilise quite a few different scripts, I think it goes to show that people will slam your game no matter how much you spend on it or whether you've used the default assets.

What matters at the end of the day is how you feel about your project, as long as your project has had a lot invested into it. And yep, your actual sales and any private feedback you may receive.

Of course, the criticism is useful too, but there's just a lot out there and the real task is working out what you need to listen to.

 

[Mouser]

A few random thoughts and comments, in no particular order, and of course IMHO.

1) You will always get more negative reviews than positive. There's a saying in retail:

"Make a customer happy, they might tell a friend.

Piss a customer off, they'll tell all their friends."

2) Steam as a platform. After looking at Greenlight and everything I read on the Gamedev forums, I'm honestly not sure if Valve knows what Steam is for any more (other than making money, of course). It used to be the "big leagues", but then came the competitors like GoG, BFG, and other portals that were making money (the thing Valve cares about the most - them being a business, and all) so they started the process of 'redefining' themselves.

Now you can get games Greenlit that haven't even been finished yet. <- Tell me how that fits into a 'big leagues only' philosophy.

3) There are a million different theories, and practical bits of advice, and other ideas about how to make something a commercial success. And to be sure, there are things you can do that will increase those odds.  But I have seen so many things in my life become commercially successful that have broken every rule of marketing and just plain common sense that I know there are no 'hard and fast' rules to follow.

Twenty years ago they idea of selling 'bottled water' would have been looked at as insane. Then came Perrier. Then came a 'non-elite/non-French' company (I forget which). Suddenly we've got a whole industry based on selling people something they can get for pennies a gallon from their kitchen sink.

Cue: Pet Rocks and every other 'ridiculous' fad that has made its creator millions over the years.

4) There is only one true "rule" that determines whether or not a product will be a commercial success: If it is something people see and want to trade their hard-earned (or not so hard-earned, or however they got them) dollars for it, it will be a commercial success. If not, it won't.

Harlequin Romance books: You want to talk about something that re-uses "RTP"? Those authors are given a _very_ specific formula that they have to follow, along with word counts and when each 'event' needs to happen.  They churn them out as fast as they can and consumers gobble them all up like goldfish (Romance is I believe the highest in 'repeat customer business' of all the book genres).

5) What does all this have to do with a RPG Maker game? Maybe nothing. Like I said, just my random thoughts.

 

[DavidGil]

I've got one word which annoys me as an author:

Erotica.

You can't browse on Amazon without running into it. And it's pretty over-priced too at times.

 

[Creative Ed]

I'll give you a concrete example... We've got a few RTP-styled things in sale at our store as well as a few completely original pieces. If we were to listen to the public opinion (say Facebook, since there are lots of very vocal people there), we would be mainly offering original pieces. And yet, if you look at the sales, the RTP-styled bits outsell the original pieces.

So, you can't always take the feedback at face value, even if it seems supported by something a fellow developer said.

I'll just grab this as there's a very simple explanation for that. It isn't that the RTP ones are better, but because people that buy those end up having a very much bigger library of graphics to choose from, which will enhance the variety of graphics in their games, also they will have a community at their disposal to help on editing, etc, because this is a graphic style everyone here is very used to. While Non-RTP packs are usually very limited, people tend to not buy them because adding stuff to those will be much more dificult. It's not a matter of what it is, it's a matter of how useful it is to you as a consumer, and in this case, RTP graphics end up being more useful.

---

Now, I'm glad this topic wasn't closed yet because I'd like to say a few more things.

First of all, even though I've helped on this topics' course, I've grown sad with what I read so far so I'd like to soften this up a little bit for Dark Gaia.

Look man, what's been going on here wasn't anything like "you shouldn't have gone comercial with LW2", or "if you can't do it good, don't do it at all". No man, that's not the point, this is a one time learning experience you have been honored to have, so take advantage of it, don't rage quit, don't bring yourself down in the thought you did wrong on going comercial and don't start hating gamedev because of how much it showed where you went wrong. Instead use this and take apretiation for it.

Take a good look a this situation, you now know and experienced things you would never had if you stayed on freebies, you're now aware of many concepts that only serve the purpose of growing your knowledge and experience on this matter, and turning your back and quitting game development is only a way of sending this experience you aquired to a trash can.

Steam it's not what it used to be, that's true, but it's not a free way ticket either. It still has standards, not any game can enter there and the fact that your game is there only shows that it was acknowledged and ultimately considered a good game for all that matters. -> Not everyone can say that.

I've bought your game and I've played it a little in order to write this post accurately. (This was the first time I've bought a rm game, but it's fairly cheap, not hard o let go.) From what I've played, I could see some bad game design choices, but a lot of good ones as well. You know how to write stories, you have good game design notions, as well as good timings in what concerns storytelling, good balancing, and best of all (and who doesn't acknowledge this obviously hasn't done it) you finished the game, which is a great sign of effort for all means. So, in short, yeah man, overall, you know what you're doing. And with that you earned a reputation, you succeeded.

But.. then.. there's so much you lost by sticking with the RTP.. Seriously, it would have improved the game so much, but you've already heard enough of that. So I'll make you a deal.

I don't know if you're thinking of making a new game, but you sounded like so in your first posts in this topic.

I'm currently working on two projects, one is major, it's for my company, it's a 4x space strategy game where I'm the 3D artist, the other is a side project of mine of a story I wrote that I will release on solo (but it still needs much pre-production work) and I have time for another one.

If you'd like, I'll join you on a commercial project but this time there's no cheating, we'll make the graphics, we'll make the sound effects, etc.

If you're interested contact me via PM, we'll talk more by those means. If you're not, it's ok, I'll use that time to do something else

But then again, remember, this was a learning experience, so take advantage of it.

Cheers!

Oh and sorry for my english, I realize it's really bad when I write long lines of text lol.

-Oh and another thing, I noticed you got stuck on the "big leagues" thingy, forget that man, in the big leagues you earn millions, they're called triple A games. You're on the indie zone, where you're allowed to make mistakes and you earn pennies

 

[Lunarea]

@BustEd:

I just wanted to address this, though I'm going a bit off-topic..

I'll just grab this as there's a very simple explanation for that. It isn't that the RTP ones are better, but because people that buy those end up having a very much bigger library of graphics to choose from, which will enhance the variety of graphics in their games, also they will have a community at their disposal to help on editing, etc, because this is a graphic style everyone here is very used to. While Non-RTP packs are usually very limited, people tend to not buy them because adding stuff to those will be much more dificult. It's not a matter of what it is, it's a matter of how useful it is to you as a consumer, and in this case, RTP graphics end up being more useful.

I actually didn't mention the reason why the RTP sells on purpose, as it wasn't really relevant to my point. The important part was that the feedback (in this case many people saying they want more original content) is not always an indicator of what the majority of the customers want.

There are several factors in why RTP-styled sets sell better, and the style size is just one of them. As our resource pack creators will probably tell you, I do a lot of planning and research around the products as they're created and released. Being aware of what the customers want is a huge part of that process.

 

[Creative Ed]

Yes, you're right, It's just that as I read that part I automatically formed an opinion and wanted to talk about it

 

[Shion Kreth]

A commercial game is just a game that's being sold commercial right? There is no other industry standard I know of that qualifies or disqualifies a game as 'good enough' or 'not good enough' (And thank god because as a consumer like all of us here *I* want to choose what I buy, not have some panel of elitists decide what is and isn't worth putting up for sale), if people voted it on to steam through greenlight or you otherwise managed to get it on there, then it's good enough; steam is NOT a platform of uniform standards or exclusivity.

Just remember Dark Gaia that no matter what you put into your game, thousands of dollars of art assets, whatever, can be the best looking game the world's ever seen and there will still be some people who that's simply still not good enough for, and they will tend to be the loudest, most belligerent and most judgemental; you won't get anywhere by trying to bend over backwards trying to please them.

 

[brandos]

All the rpg maker games on steam have only 1-3 reviews so i think it's not very profitable. Any comments on that?

 

[Shion Kreth]

All the rpg maker games on steam have only 1-3 reviews so i think it's not very profitable. Any comments on that?

I think last dream has over 70 reviews, majority being positive, and that's an rtp game. Wow, always sometimes monsters has 182, skyborn has 104, to the moon... even bigger wow with 3800 and change. No I think it must be alright. Alpha kimori is sitting at 13... if we're using reviews as a vague indicator of purchases(which we can all agree IS pretty vague), is anyone else seeing NO correlation between their graphics and the amount of attention they receive?

 

[Dark Gaia]

Hi everyone. I was lured back into the thread by a comment that BustedEd left on my blog. There is some good discussion here, and if I do eventually get around to finishing another game, I will certainly pay it good mind. However, I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm just a little bit burned out at the moment. I've never released a commercial game before. For someone who's only been releasing free games up until now, it took a considerable amount of effort to finish LW2, polish it and market it to a new audience. For the record, I don't regret any of it and I'm glad the game has exceeded my expectations, but the whole experience has basically drained my desire to work on a new game right away.

I'm generally like that with creative projects; my first novel was published in 2012 -- only now am I actually starting to make steady progress on my second one. As a professional author, I also need to take some time to work on my writing and get more work published, as that is what advances me in my day job. I looked back at this entire thread and all I thought was that I spent way too much time and effort worrying about something that can't be helped, when I could have just been moving on to the next project or working on my new novel instead.

So at the moment, I'm sort of "retired". In all the fuss getting Legionwood 2 out, I've neglected my writing, so I want to put my next RPG Maker project aside for a good while to focus on that instead. When I'm ready, I will take another shot at commercial development, and this time I will be better for it.

 

[Creative Ed]

That's more like it

Good luck, and looking forward to see you back

 

[Tuomo L]

I've got one word which annoys me as an author:

Erotica.

You can't browse on Amazon without running into it. And it's pretty over-priced too at times.

I am sorry, I do not understand the relevance of this in this discussion? Are you saying it's good idea to deal with Steam by using erotica in your games?

 

[DavidGil]

A few random thoughts and comments, in no particular order, and of course IMHO.

1) You will always get more negative reviews than positive. There's a saying in retail:

"Make a customer happy, they might tell a friend.

Piss a customer off, they'll tell all their friends."

2) Steam as a platform. After looking at Greenlight and everything I read on the Gamedev forums, I'm honestly not sure if Valve knows what Steam is for any more (other than making money, of course). It used to be the "big leagues", but then came the competitors like GoG, BFG, and other portals that were making money (the thing Valve cares about the most - them being a business, and all) so they started the process of 'redefining' themselves.

Now you can get games Greenlit that haven't even been finished yet. <- Tell me how that fits into a 'big leagues only' philosophy.

3) There are a million different theories, and practical bits of advice, and other ideas about how to make something a commercial success. And to be sure, there are things you can do that will increase those odds.  But I have seen so many things in my life become commercially successful that have broken every rule of marketing and just plain common sense that I know there are no 'hard and fast' rules to follow.

Twenty years ago they idea of selling 'bottled water' would have been looked at as insane. Then came Perrier. Then came a 'non-elite/non-French' company (I forget which). Suddenly we've got a whole industry based on selling people something they can get for pennies a gallon from their kitchen sink.

Cue: Pet Rocks and every other 'ridiculous' fad that has made its creator millions over the years.

4) There is only one true "rule" that determines whether or not a product will be a commercial success: If it is something people see and want to trade their hard-earned (or not so hard-earned, or however they got them) dollars for it, it will be a commercial success. If not, it won't.

Harlequin Romance books: You want to talk about something that re-uses "RTP"? Those authors are given a _very_ specific formula that they have to follow, along with word counts and when each 'event' needs to happen.  They churn them out as fast as they can and consumers gobble them all up like goldfish (Romance is I believe the highest in 'repeat customer business' of all the book genres).

5) What does all this have to do with a RPG Maker game? Maybe nothing. Like I said, just my random thoughts.

@Mr Big T.

Bolded and underlined for you the reason why I said what I did. It was right above the post of mine that you quoted. And I did previously contribute to the thread. And I would never dream of saying that, so I'm not sure where that came from.

Edit: At the end of the day, it's partly relevant because of what Mouser said and because rushing out a RTP game (and I'm in no shape or form saying DarkGaia has) is quite similar to writing erotica for a quick buck. Yet it's not really relevant at the same time because erotica and using the RTP are completely different things.

 

[Mouser]

Bolded and underlined for you the reason why I said what I did. It was right above the post of mine that you quoted. And I did previously contribute to the thread.

You sure you're talking to the right person? I don't think I've quoted you anywhere in this thread.

My comment on Harlequin books was simply that people will consume the same story over and over again.

Edit: If you were talking to Big T, my bad. An @Big T can make that clearer in your comments.

 

[DavidGil]

You sure you're talking to the right person? I don't think I've quoted you anywhere in this thread.

My comment on Harlequin books was simply that people will consume the same story over and over again.

I was replying to Mister Big T. Sorry for the confusion.

I was indicating that people churn out erotica and that it sells. Nothing more, nothing less. And I know it's completely different to using the RTP or discussing it. So, basically, I was agreeing with what you said.

Edit: Sure, I can add that and remove said name. I guess that I'm at fault here, but I would normally quote. it's just that . . .I was replying to the post right above mine, so . . ..