To thief or not to thief, that is the question...

[Tai_MT]

See?  Personal preference, ha ha.  Depends on if you like playing the Thief/Rogue or not.  ^_^  Personally, I've yet to run into a crafting system I enjoy (so stealing crafting supplies really irritates the crap out of me), but I've only ever run into a single Stealing system that I outright hated.


To be quite honest, it's a bit silly to be stealing mid-combat.  Even when you try to do it in D&D, you take heavy penalties towards doing it because it's meant to be a sneaky and subtle action.


I think if you're really going to include any kind of Stealing or Thievery in your game, it should most likely take place on the maps and not in combat.  Mostly because... that's where it makes sense.

 

[RHachicho]

Yeah I mean I can only give my opinion It doesn't have to apply to everyone. The crafting in my game is essential because I have to types of equipment. Exchangeable and Upgrade able. Basically there are certain equipment pieces that rather than there being new swords/shields/whatever s to get instead they are upgraded during certain plot moments. or by completing side quests. That usually involve collecting crafting ingredients. I wanted to give the player a sense of some equipment being persistent. To avoid the classic FF7 dilemma of for example Cloud's buster sword. It's iconic. And he uses it for about 5% of the game even though it's always on his back and he can never throw it away (At least as far as I can remember)


But yeah with the thievery thing. I guess the answer is .. sure .. go for it. But make it MEAN something. Don't just put it there to make your dashing rogue not useless.


An over world stealing system also makes more sense. However actually stealing from peaceful npc's isn't very heroic. So depending on the game it could be a bit unusual. Cough link Cough barrels Cough.

 

[consolcwby]

I have honestly yet to find a game that includes a thief/steal skill that doesn't result in one of 3 things:

I read the OP's post and I had a good think about what everyone here has said. In my current design, I am using the Thief Class as a type of Fighter Class. Some of the design addresses a few of these issues:


1) $Specialized attacks: There is a 'Molest' attack, which can essentially paralyze a 'Thinking' type of enemy through embarrassment, and can drain MP from them. I think of this as 'Stealing' MP - something which works, particularly against humanoid bosses. Other attacks I would like to plan, not really sure how to execute, would 'Steal' a turn, etc. 'Stealing' in this sense, is more than just items.


2) !Stealth: Particularly in the Overworld, this skill-set can be used to great effect - not just avoiding set encounters, but also to 'Steal' from them - Items they would normally drop, certain useless items (such as a hoe) which the character collects in sets and when a set is finished provides a permanent 'Boost' to stats, etc.


3) *Fencing: This is particular to my current design, where the character can receive 'extra' cash if an item is tagged with a variable and a set amount of those items are sold at once to the guild master. This allows 'Endless' questing to a degree, and allows some strategy to whether a player wants to 'fight' or 'mug' a certain encounter.


Now, I will admit to still attempting to figure some of this stuff out, being new to RMMV. But, really it's all about design - to make this class either stand out or be 'just another thief' in an RPG game. I hope this post has helped!


(P.S.: $ = basic implementation developed, ! =  some implementation, * = no implementation so far)

 

[Dr. Delibird]

@Tai_MT, I think you make a really good point about how the level of enjoyment a player can get from a thief mechanic is not just related to the mechanic itself but also the players thoughts/opinions/relationship with the thief/rogue archtype. I guess this can really be said about any mechanic really. This made me realise something people may think is obvious but I would doubt it is and that is that you need to design your game and its mechanics around the audience you want to be presenting the game to. Now if you deeply enjoy a mechanic or the general idea of a mechanic then you are more likely to implement it well as you can take from what you know works and use that to mold a mechanic into something people of like minds enjoy.


@consolcwby, entirely off topic but I would be carefully with your naming scheme for skills. A skill called "molest" can and will easily cut out certain audiences from enjoying your game.

 

[consolcwby]

entirely off topic but I would be carefully with your naming scheme for skills. A skill called "molest" can and will easily cut out certain audiences from enjoying your game.

verb: molest; 3rd person present: molests; past tense: molested; past participle: molested; gerund or present participle: molesting

1. 
   
   
   
   
   pester or harass (someone), typically in an aggressive or persistent manner.
   
   
   "the crowd was shouting abuse and molesting the two police officers"
   
   
   
   synonyms:
   
   
   harass, harry, hassle, pester, bother, annoy, beset, persecute, torment;
   
   
   
   informalroust
   
   
   "the crowd molested the police"
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

The above definition is what I was thinking when I used the name. However, I will admit to thinking about the double entendre when I was creating the state. The interesting thing about crafting the mechanics (in terms of PG-13, TV-14 ratings) is the freedom to think creatively - such as a skill called harass which my thief class also has - limits the synonyms which could be used which in turn rather limits the imagination if one begins to self-censor at the design and alpha stage.


But, the heads-up is noted. The point of my post was to shine a spotlight on the OP's problem, which is mainly, a design problem, and I gave some examples. Didn't mean to offend, if I did.

 

[Kes]

Not entirely off-topic, as it reminds us that our design decisions do not happen in a vacuum, but always within a social context. 

 

[Wavelength]

One other idea I haven't seen anyone bring up yet: give the Thief a chance to steal something whenever she uses her basic Attack?

 

[RHachicho]

The above definition is what I was thinking when I used the name. However, I will admit to thinking about the double entendre when I was creating the state. The interesting thing about crafting the mechanics (in terms of PG-13, TV-14 ratings) is the freedom to think creatively - such as a skill called harass which my thief class also has - limits the synonyms which could be used which in turn rather limits the imagination if one begins to self-censor at the design and alpha stage.


But, the heads-up is noted. The point of my post was to shine a spotlight on the OP's problem, which is mainly, a design problem, and I gave some examples. Didn't mean to offend, if I did.

Personally I wouldn't use molest. You are completely correct in the that the dictionary definition of molest covers such skills. But you can't really argue at what the word has come to mean for general use has some dark connotations. I think it's important to remember how the name is going to be received not just whether or not it is "correct". And I will admit the first thing I thought when I read this is .. their going for molest .. really?


A lot of other people will come off with the same impression. Also even when you consider the non child abuse connotations of the word it doesn't exactly fit as a thief skill. When ussing molestation rather than harassment or thievery. You imagine that the "molester" is getting some kind of personal gratification out of the process. Whether that be sexual or simply funny or sadistic. It's not usually associated with action for strategic or material gain.

 

[consolcwby]

Okay. I'm going to explain myself, not because I have to - but because there seems to be some prevailing wind against one-third of my post which is de-railing helping the OP with a design issue.


My design of this Thief Skill: I started off trying to think of my four classes and how they will be introduced into the game. Therefore, I needed some status effects which either come-in late or early - and I made the decision to allow the effects to be spread out amongst the four classes. I decided on the thief having the ability to 'stun' or 'paralyze' an opponent. Since this character originally shows up as a sub-boss, the player can be shown the effect by happening to the current party. So, I called it 'stun' temporarily and created both the skill and the effect. Once it was adjusted to my liking, and after some character design, I realized I needed something more unique. Since I have created a few attack animations, I wanted this character to literally zip around the enemy poking at them and then disappearing behind them - thereby showing the character's speed and agility. The problem came in the namespace 'Stun'. This is a poor reflection of the skill and has no 'flavour' to it. So, I began looking at it from the character's point of view. What would she call it? And the answer came first as 'harass' then 'bully' then the 'M' word. With my sense of humour being what it is, I really liked the 'M' word due to the 'fun-centered' nature and low-class of the character. The skill itself is merely a short 'paralyze' in which non-humanoid enemies are immune to. The namespace is still subject to change. The skill may be replaced or re-balanced, or deleted over time. At this point, the characters are still undergoing re-writes and as such it is possible it may no longer be 'appropos' to the character. As far as community standards go, perhaps my game will be a tad bit inappropriate to release here, which will be unfortunate since I am looking forward to advice on which skills I need to strengthen. And that's perfectly okay with me. Again, my post wasn't meant to offend or provoke, It was merely to offer advice the OP had asked for. In the future, I'll try not to include examples, only generalizations.

Spoiler

If a mod wishes to delete these posts or have me do it, PM me as I think the validity of the topic outweighs the controversy I inadvertantly caused.

 

[Kes]

Now I think this is getting off-topic.


Can we leave the name issue to one side now and return to the question posed by the OP.


Thanks.

 

[RHachicho]

Yeah sure .. of course. I just had an opinion and I gave it. Doesn't mean I was going on a massive SJW rant. I assure you the post was in no danger of being "derailed". It's a little hurtful to be treated so defensively over it. But I guess you guys have to take a hard line with stuff like this on the interwebs as you don't know me.

 

[Dr. Delibird]

@consolcwby, no harm no foul. I know the word has multiple meanings (like so many words in the english language alone). In saying that, a lot of words with double (tripple ect) meanings tend to only have one common meaning and so use of the word for any of its other meanings is always a risky endeavour. Take the word gay for example, whilst the sentence "I am gay" could mean that I am happy most will not read it as such unless there is some sort of outside information that influences their thought process (which is getting into the psychology of so many fields at once). 

 

[Adam1013]

In my current project in MV, the steal mechanic is used to steal traditional healing items and what not. You are also able to steal primarily crafting mats from enemies to make modifications for weapons and armor and of course some good equips from bosses. All the stuff gained from bosses though can be found / purchased later, its more of an incentive to get some cool gear earlier. 


most items / craft mats can be purchased but money can be tight when trying to outfit everyone in the party so using the thief job provides bonuses in that aspect. 


Also thief for my game gains some passives that assist with steal / drop rate and money drop so just having a thief provides extra bonuses to the party. 


Just some ways ive decided to make thief a desireable job in my game 

 

[Dr. Delibird]

@Wavelength, I really like your idea of making the steal mechanic a passive. With the right balancing on the the chance to steal and the pool of items available to steal it is probably the best way to do it outside of a game that is dedicated to the thief mechanic (like a dishonoured/assassin creed level of focus on the mechanic). Also this is probably the perfect system for my game anyhow as the character who will have this passive isn't a thief archetype per-say and the items that can be stolen are more flavourful sell items rather than consumeables or other types of gear so making it a passive skill is really just giving the player a chance to get more money and, if the player cares about the in-game universe/lore, additional insight to the world around them. 

 

[BloodletterQ]

Well my thief is an assassin although I suppose that a bard and maybe an archer can work in some thief-based abilities. If you can find a rogue-derived class, I guess that opens up skill possibilities.

 

[M.I.A.]

2) The character(s) with the thief skill or only good for stealing, making one or more characters either beyond useless in a lot of situations and/or the reason why the player has the maximum amount of all the stealable items from random mobs. These characters end up broken and unbalanced in both possible ways.

In my current project(s) my "thief" classes are actually not thieves at all.


- One of them is a Hunter with the Poach command. Poach will "steal" an item from an enemy (Horn, Fur, Tooth, etc.) that can then be sold to the Guild for gold. The Hunter has several other skills at his disposal and balanced stats to make him useful in combat. Gold is hard to come by in this project, so Poaching really helps speed along the process of grinding.


- In the other project, the "steal" command is called Syphon and belongs to my Warlock class. The Warlock is a mage class with multiple HP/MP damaging/healing & State Causing spells, that use "energy" from enemies to use (instead of MP). Every enemy has Energy in abundance, but different element types based on their type (aquatic have more Water, etc.). Even bosses have energy to be easily stolen. In fact, in some boss battles, the bosses only weaknesses are spells from the Warlock class that utilize an element that the boss has, thus making those particular boss fights a little easier if you have a Warlock in the team.


On the regular, though, I rarely ever make a Thief class that exclusively uses "Steal". I see no logic behind a Slime carrying Swords or Lich carrying a Max Ether. lol.


Hope you find this helpful.


-Mia

 

[MAIR]

Not sure if you've ever played Earthbound, one of the party members you get has a "Spy" ability. This not only acts as a scan, telling you the enemy's stats and such, but also can see equipment the boss may be hiding. Then again, such a clunky game like Earthbound may not be the best example.

 

[Maliki79]

Well, in my game, Steal is a skill all of the main characters can learn.  It is a part of my Fist-Weapon skill tree and can be use when the skill is learned and a Fist Weapon is equipped.  Fist weapons generally are weak both physically and magically, so it has a kinda niche use in my game.


Now in my game I try to make stealing as interesting as possible.  Firstly, it isn't free.  It cost 20 SP (My game's version of MP).  The first character that has Steal starts with about 75 SP, so it plays into my item conservation system by forcing players to chose ways to mitigate SP use via limited items or by using the character that can restore her own SP but will limit her magical ability since she can't equip a magic item at the same time.


Most enemies have items that can be bought.  However, it pays to keep in mind that my game has a limited inventory of Battle Items such as potions,  so stealing can allow the party to last a bit longer in some of the longer dungeons.


Also, II make it so some enemies drop  multiple items.  So while they may have ho-hum items, being able to steal 5 of em might be worth the trouble.


I also give some enemies "steal-only" items.  These will usually just be for quest fulfillment or crafting/converting.


I also have conditional steals which which quite infrequent, can yield very useful items!


(Most of my current conditional steals are only if the enemy has been successfully robbed a certain number of times already.)


As for stealing from bosses, all regular bosses in my game will have a special healing item that cannot be found in stores (And some may have other stealables as well.) 


Finally, the downside to stealing is that in almost every case, a steal attempt will anger the target, increasing their attack power by a bit and in some cases changing their attack patterns!


So yeah, I try to make my stealing a useful and important part of my game.  I'll see how far it'll go in testing tho.

 

[Doktor_Q]

At the risk of sounding like I only play one game, this was another case where Paper Mario had an interesting take- enemies with items are a rarity that only appear sometimes in battle, but are incredibly dangerous because items are very powerful, and enemies holding items will actually use them. 


Therefore, stealing is a highly useful (if situational) ability for the following:


1. Enemies with items are visibly holding them, so you know when and what you can steal.


2. Enemies with items are dangerous or annoying, so stealing it prevents something bad.


3. By the flip side, items are incredibly useful for you, too, so snagging a free consumable in a fight is helpful. Limited inventory space means you can't stock up with 99 potions before the dungeon, and not every shop had every item you could find on enemies.


3b. Items could get pretty expensive.