Too many battle options a bad thing?

[omen613]

I can't seem to stick to a battle system I like for my game…I keep nuking it and starting over. But one thing keeps floating around in my head…is giving the player too many abilities in battle gonna make the game become easy mode? here lets give some examples..

In the famous pokemon series…they limited each battle member to only 4 moves. If you learned a new move you had to forget an existing move to keep it…or you could just not learn the new move and go on  to bigger and better things. This made for customized game play. two players could have the same pokemon but both of them had different sets of abilities. Each ability would be carefully chosen for you only got the 4.

Then theres classic JRPS like the final fantasy series where you learn new moves and its just added to your pool of abilities to chose from. You can have abilities at the ready for any situation just as long as you went through the trouble of learning them first. Poisoned? good thing mandy the priest learned remove poison. Swarmed by 8 enemies at once? I learned the firaga spell that will burn them all at once.

So is it rewarding to have all these options at your finger tips after having gone through all the trouble of learning all them? Or do you prefer limited number so you can't be ready for EVERY situation and have to adapt with what you DO have in order to create more challenge? Or does this just cause too much frustration and "how do you JUST forget a move you used 1000 times before?" kinda logic lol

 

[Berylstone]

More options are never a bad thing as long as they are interesting or useful in my opinion.

If the options serve no effective purpose however, I would scrap them.

 

[CWells]

Have a battle system that is consistent! That is the main thing. As far as skills go, find a balance between giving everything up and making characters work for those important skills. Skills will create the value of your character about as much as the parameters you are working with.

Don't worry about pleasing everyone. Some people will complain something is "too hard", while others may find that similar thing "easy".

I would prefer a set of skills I can depend on for a fair length of the game that are not all similar and are not things that every single character can do.

 

[Imemperor]

It depends on your vision of gameplay and your MC's role.

Pokemon limits you to 4 moves, but it allows you to switch your Pokemon at will with 5 other ones on your team, effectively giving you at least 24 different moves (not including items and holdable items), each with its own set of strengths and weaknesses.

Other games like the Final Fantasy series gives you full sets of magic. It gives you an illusion of choice. But really, why would you bother using fire1 at end game when you have enough MP to spam Flare and Meteror?

 

[Chaos Avian]

Yes and no. I say that because it can depend on your battle system. Take for example an ATB, in FF4 I hated having to spend 2-3 seconds scrolling ALL the way past skills I never would used to find Meteor or Curaja for use (2-3 seconds is a lot of time in an AT, when Cecil, Edge and Kain were simple split action times. Then you games like Persona and the max skills you carry per character is 8. Lets say you got rid of that ONE skill you need, the fight becomes near impossible which can frustrate the player. It's all about balance really.

 

[Andar]

perhaps it's better to rephrase your wording to answer your question:

Too many choices in battle are bad - options might not be as bad.

If the player has (at any time, not only combat) several dozens of options to choose from, then the game becomes tedious (the exact limit depends on the player, some consider 3 choices too many, others aren't satisfied with less than 10 choices and it becomes tedious for them only beyond 30 choices).

you could have 2000 different options/skills in your game without problems - if each of 20 actors and 200 enemies uses only 10 of those skills, and regular distribution (battle/non-battle) makes only four or five of those skills available to any one actor in battle.

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Well here is an example I quite fancy.

Ever played Shin Megami Tensei series?

Their skill system is very similar to Pokemon by limitations but they have more skill slots, actually double the amount that pokemons skill slot, I didn't like Pokemons skill slot because it makes it so limited and it is boring with only 4, but the Shin Megami Tensei has the exact same kind of slot system but it have more variety to it which I enjoy. So what I am trying to say is, limitation to skills is not as bad but don't make it too limited and don't give off way too many options as well, rather make the skill variety situational for tactical advantage.

 

[orochii]

I remember the Yanfly Melody, which included a limiter for skill options inside battle. Eight slots where you equipped skills. They were enough, just like OM3GA's example from ShinMegaten (<3).

I find it funny though, the same principle comes from MMORPGs, where you assign skills to hotkeys. But it becomes absurd when you have your 3-4 hotkey bars (each with 12+ skills) filled up with all your skills. And when you're playing, you don't even see what you're attacking, you're playing piano on your PC with your function keys! (F1-12).

For my game, I am going with some friends recommendations, something they were doing for their games. Same thing everyone is saying here.

No need for Fire1, 2, 3 on the same skill list (if you can throw in a skill leveling, nice, if not, then balance things out so your vanilla fire skill never gets useless and doesn't need any "damage update"). It's unnecessary clutter.

Second thing, overall, care to make the skill list as short as possible, without making it limited of course. Consider balancing these two aspects, so that navigating feels nicer (like Chaos said, FF's white/black magic. I think it would had been horrible without the option to rearrange magic to your liking).

Another good thing to do, classification. See if you can classify stuff so that the "necessary cursor moves" and "amount of time navigating the menu" is less.

Last thing, remember your player has this hypothetical thing called "power of choosing". Either switching characters, equipment, or something else. See what things can you give to the player to choose before battle, so that when they're inside battle they can concentrate on the things they choose to play with. I mean, that reduces a little the mess.

This is all the things I follow, pretty standard I think (?),

Orochii Zouveleki

 

[Omnimental]

Personally, each option an actor has should do something functionally different.  I don't want to see Fire1, Fire2, Fire3.  I want to see Fireball (Single Target, Mid Damage), Firewall (All Enemies, Low Damage), and Firestorm (All battlers, High Damage).  Having 20 abilities listed when only 2-3 will ever get used is a waste.

 

[ShinGamix]

Most people would most likely say that my battles have too much going on but I beg to differ.

 

[kerbonklin]

I always like games that have one of each weapon / ability that can be upgraded throughout the game, instead of like 3 different shotguns, 4 different pistols, 2 magnums, 3 snipers, etc.having different specs. One of each with upgrades is all you need, or if you really want to add different effects, use some kind of enchantment system to give them, instead of even more weapons with those effects. Doing so also saves quite a bit of development time because you make less to get the same amount of results.

 

[Silent Darkness]

I think it's good to have a lot of battle options, but they should be organized into categories for ease of use if there's going to be a lot.

 

[wltr3565]

hmm... Well, things and that, balance speaking there. Limiting the skills / moves available hinders players' option, but actually, it makes navigating easier and decisions give more impact. To not limit them will give the players more control, but they can clutter. I'm fine with both, actually. But if time is fatal for battle, then limiting is better. I don't want to waste my time just to browse my skills!
 

Speaking of limitation, I wanna compare with PSO2 and Dragon Nest. They may be a different genre than yours, but the skill limitation still hold. PSO2 only gives 3 skill slots for melee weapons at a time, but you can browse easily between other 6 sets, giving you 18 skills in total, and they're arranged for your combo convenience. Dragon Nest give you 30 slots of hotkeys, 10 at a time. spamming's really take shine here...

Adding from the others, if you still don't want to limit the skills usable, then categorizing them can make things easier to navigate.

 

[Dr.Yami]

Most people would most likely say that my battles have too much going on but I beg to differ.

Man, your battle screen looks so confusing. There are too many things on the screen, and your font is too hard to read too. That H - E is unnecessary, also your screen is not wide enough to make the order gauge that big. The enemy status looks a bit off. For party status, the border (background) for states and weapons look stupid, also I don't know why you put weapon icons there (maybe your mechanic needs them?) but they make your party status looks so tight and confusing, they also put over a part of actor sprites. And again, that font looks cute but hard to read, lil' Gamox.

 

[Archeia]

I am going to be the harsh mother and make a long post since we're talking about GUI and stuffs here too.
 

-snip-
Most people would most likely say that my battles have too much going on but I beg to differ.

 
I'm sorry to burst your bubble Shin, but your screenshot is everything that you shouldn't do in a Battle GUI, the perfect example. Let's break it down and to see WHEN too many options is a bad thing.
 
TECHNICAL GUI DETAILS
 

• See that content window? It's less than half of all the pixels on screen. Technically it's fine if the game doesn't rely on visual representations, but the problems with the actual UI itself is hilariously many. 
   
• Like the classic why the f*ck is the MP and TP bar in the same row if there's enough space for the MP AND TP bar to be in their own individual rows?
   
• How many typefaces are IN this screenshot alone? Let's see now, pixel numbers and pixel EXP, the main System font, the H/E font on the turn order gauge, the EXP x 2 font, the Delay Font.
   
• That also appplies to visual styles too, the windowskin and the turn gauge, the delay window, the EXP bar thing window, the small heart with a pixel 10 on it. Too many dawg, that's what. There's no CONSISTENCY. Keyword: CONSISTENCY.
   
• The inconsistency between portraits having charactersets on the turn order and enemies with a poring icon, but there's no poring in battle. The MP bar and the MP text is cutting off the TP text, The target window is covering the Delay indicator.
   
• The H E H E thing is covered by the delay window.
  The EXP bar is covered by the delay window. 
  The H E H E thing is covered by the  yellow hearth with a pixel 10
   
• What the hell is wrong with that massive cursor?
   
• Am I supposed to read the number next to the Delay indicator? Because it looks like a giant comma.
   
• The "main" font is terrible for reading.

VISUAL PRESENTATION FOR SIDEVIEW BATTLE SYSTEMS
 

 
See this window again? I'm going to reiterate some points and ADD MORE.

• That Battle Background is HIDEOUS for your graphics. It drowns out all the details of your sprites on the screen. What's the point of having them if the background is going to clash with it? They are called Backgrounds for a reason. They shouldn't EVER steal the attention away from the viewer.
   
• UNLESS your battle system is a front view or isometric view. Putting your turn order on the side is the worst design choice ever. YOU WANT SIDEVIEW GRAPHICS, PUT ATTENTION TO IT. Wait, Archeia, what the hell are you talking about? You might ask. Let's get some pictures!
  
  Case Study:
  This is Sora No Kiseki, the Original where that UI was stolen borrowed from. But wait! Let's see here.
  
  
  
  
  
  Have you noticed the pattern by now? THAT GUI was designed so your eyes start from top to bottom. The GUI compliments with this. THE SAME THING SHOULD GO TO SIDEVIEW. Which I found that a lot of newbies fail at. Here's another example:
  
  
  
  
  
  Wait, you might be wondering, Archeia, what is wrong with this GUI? Well, if you slice off that massive white GUI away from there, here's what you'll get.
  
  
  
  
  
  Wait, what? There were sprites?! That's because my friend, that GUI was designed with both FRONTVIEW and ISOMETRIC Battle Systems in mind. To be specific, Etrian Odyssey, 7th Dragon 2020 AND Sora No Kiseki. (I recommend that you guys check them out since they're good GUI designs for those battle systems btw.)
  
  And Frontview and Isometric View share the same elements. Wait, you want visuals and proof? Lemme give you some proof.
  
  
  
  
  
  See how the arrows make your eyes move. First you Read from Left to Right, Look Down, Left to Right again, Down, Rinse and Repeat. Everything about Etrian Odyssey's UI shows what is RELEVANT to the gameplay and all the things you only need to know.
  
  Now let's go back to Shingamix's UI
  
  
  
  
  
  The Information is distributed all over the place. This is BAD design and too much displayed at once.
  If you want to design a Sideview Battle System then this is how it should go.
  
  
  
  
  
  We all know the enemies are on the Left side and what they look like. We DON'T NEED the H E H E indicators. That's useless. If you want to show the enemies in the turn order to be obvious, then make the back of their icons red and make the players blue. Less displayed, but more shown. 

But I think I should've given everyone a gist of when too much becomes bad is because how the majority relay that information to the player. It's at least 4 times more important about how it's displayed than how it actually works because the player can't see how it works. They can only infer based on the visual feedback given to them from what the game creates. The more visual feedback given the more information is shown to the player. But unless you go all out and show the player the code to the game the player will never "know" what exactly goes on in the game.

For example, if you tell them THE ENEMY HAS UP TO 3 HP AND YOU CAN KILL IT IN ONE HIT. but what about misses, parries, what if you select a skill that doesn't deal damage? etc. so unless the game has absolutely no random elements AND the game tells you exactly what will happen when you do and WHY the player will never know exactly what the game does. The thing is too much information is also a thing, and therefore the UI is made to simplify and only show the information a player NEEDS to know, such as whether the icon is a hero or an enemy icon can be inferred by looking at the battlefield and the enemy/player sprites while color coding can actually aid in identifying it. It is not needed and simply a convenience. But that same convenience becomes an inconvenience when said "categorization" doesn't look nice and disrupts other presented information visually (in shingamix's case, overlapping other interface elements!)

I'm tired now. So yes guys, this entire post is related to the topic lol.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

If you give me 20 skills per character when the game starts, I'm going to just find one and spam it. Don't overload your players. Introduce them to mechanics slowly. I shouldn't have to read through menus for 10 minutes to figure out what all my powers do before I even start your game.

 

[Berylstone]

I think in the end it just depends on the type of player.  

Some will not mind a morass of menu options with different abilities to choose from.  Others will feel overwhelmed.

What a lot of games have been doing lately is just give the player a limited amount of slots to equip abilities into.  That way they can pick and choose which ones they like and whittle down their ability list in the process.  So that's probably the safest way to design you game if you want to have a whole lot of abilities to choose from.

In the end though I feel this is more of a problem for active battle systems.  If you are making a traditional turn-based RPG game then I'd say it is less of an issue, since the player can take his/her time planning their next move.

 

[Archeia]

I think in the end it just depends on the type of player.  

Some will not mind a morass of menu options with different abilities to choose from.  Others will feel overwhelmed.

Bad GUI design is Bad GUI design. There's no other excuse around it.

Start with a clean layout first, then as you open up menus, windows related to what you just opened up show up. You don't need to slam everything right at the player's face at the beginning. You also need to make good use of space. Do you want to play an RPG where you feel like you're reading a post with TL;DR text on it? There's a reason why so many skills at the beginning of the game is highly discouraged. The same logic applies to GUI design.

This is something to be considered to be a good game designer, especially since attention span of people isn't the same nowadays. So compressing information but still show enough is more crucial than ever. There are plenty of other games that actually do these things right and will most likely get more attention for it having put the effort to be legible and easy. Playing a game shouldn't be a painful eye crossing experience, regardless of genre.

 

[McTricky]

Bad GUI design is Bad GUI design. There's no other excuse around it.

I hope you realize that once I design a custom GUI for my game, I'm going to ask for your seal of approval, haha xD

I'll admit I have a character who has 27 skills, to start with. However, she is not a character who stays with the party for the whole game, but rather a guest character. That being said, the way I've designed her moveset is of a dance-like nature. She has 4 different "movements" each with about 4-10 skills, and each functions differently (one purely for defense, one for speed, one for magic, etc). Also, most of the skills will have the character go into another "movement" having a new set of skills to choose from, so players will find interesting combos to string attacks together. I'm probably not explaining it all that well, but it works xD

I have another character (again, a guest character) who has 45 skills to start with, only the skills he has available is determined by the weapon he has equipped at the time, and as he's the only character who is able to swap weapons in battle, there will be a lot of cooldown times involved. That being said this character has 45 skills on paper, and will probably be significantly cut down to a more realistic number.

 

[Berylstone]

Bad GUI design is Bad GUI design. There's no other excuse around it.

Start with a clean layout first, then as you open up menus, windows related to what you just opened up show up. You don't need to slam everything right at the player's face at the beginning. You also need to make good use of space. Do you want to play an RPG where you feel like you're reading a post with TL;DR text on it? There's a reason why so many skills at the beginning of the game is highly discouraged. The same logic applies to GUI design.

This is something to be considered to be a good game designer, especially since attention span of people isn't the same nowadays. So compressing information but still show enough is more crucial than ever. There are plenty of other games that actually do these things right and will most likely get more attention for it having put the effort to be legible and easy. Playing a game shouldn't be a painful eye crossing experience, regardless of genre.

You seem to be focused more on the actual menu lay-out and the organization of the graphics themselves.  If I am misunderstanding you I apologize.  But in that context, I agree with you.  Keeping things clean and easy to access is always better than a cluttered disorganized mess in my opinion.  The misunderstanding was my fault though.  I should have used a different word than morass in my post.

What my post was referring to was the amount of options that may become available to the player during the course of the game.  For example: some players (like me) will enjoy having dozens of different spells and attacks to choose from in a turn-based setting - where as others might feel overwhelmed by it.  

I suppose my point was that I believe a complex menu system with many different options can be a good thing if designed properly.  Some of my favorite games have had extensive menu systems with numerous layers and and options (the Romance of the Three Kingdoms series as a quick example).  Though they aren't for everyone.