Too many elements? Too many heroes?

[YoraeRasante]

I have always intended for the mechanics to be integrated with the lore. I thought that would be a good way to balance having 12 heroes and 4 story paths.

Makes some sense. I remember your menu screen being split between the 4 main elements, one with the association with each sign.

I do plan on time spells causing damage. I'm trying to do something unique with time in my game. I like thinking out of the box and trying new things.

Then they are an element... but are they a Time element or can they use another one?


Curious how something would be damaged by time as an attack. I can understand a poison-like "decaying" state, and a "time reversal" healing, but wonder how you will make them cause non-state damage... Maybe retrofire, that flame from a book series whose name I forgot that hurts the victim in the past so the damage can't be healed easily?

That really helps me understand it. I was conflating damage types and elements. So any damage types I want to include would be elements but in the colloquial sense. Then, on top of those, I would have effective elements like Fire, Earth, etc... So poison wouldn't event get its own element, would it? Any poison damage I could think of could probably fall under another element. Poison states would be just that, right?

Yup. It was a bit confusing to you because, to the RM, they are all considered "elements", but when speaking of them outside the convention it is a bit different.

And like everyone has been saying with Lust, those are just states, so there's no element needed.


And Time, if I don't intend for it to be a special kind of damage would also just be states. However, I do want to have Time be a special kind of damage.

Yup for Lust, and as said maybe Time could be an element, or maybe it would be a creative use of other elements... depends on you and your imagination.

Physical wouldn't be an element, per se, just non-elemental damage types. So I don't have to include that in my element planning.

Yeah, just... don't call it non-elemental, call it non-magic. Non-elemental is a "special kind" of element on its own.

 

[Michael Caiola]

Makes some sense. I remember your menu screen being split between the 4 main elements, one with the association with each sign.

Yup. The fire trigon on one path, the earth trigon on another, etc.

Curious how something would be damaged by time as an attack. I can understand a poison-like "decaying" state, and a "time reversal" healing, but wonder how you will make them cause non-state damage... Maybe retrofire, that flame from a book series whose name I forgot that hurts the victim in the past so the damage can't be healed easily?

Time is somewhat of a fourth dimension. So damage would be inflicted in a way that the target cannot avoid unless he has the ability to perceive, influence, or manipulate time, as well. So, for example, if I used a spell that causes physical damage, that would still be able to affect an enemy with resistance or immunity to physical damage since Capricorn is manipulating a dimension the enemy cannot perceive. Thus it would be Time damage.

Yeah, just... don't call it non-elemental, call it non-magic. Non-elemental is a "special kind" of element on its own.

Now this makes sense:

Non-elemental damage, on the other hand, does not cause extra damage to anything, but is also not resisted by anything. It is the super spell element, in a way, not able to take advantage of weaknesses but nothing can resist it either.

 

[bgillisp]

One thing to remember is you're making a game to tell your story. You're not making an engine that you then slap a game onto. Therefore, it should be make the story and lore first, get it final, then figure out how to make the battle system and such work for your story. Any other way is making an engine then tacking a story onto it, which is bound to have problems.


That being said, it might help to break some of the characters up into status aliments and such instead of giving them a unique element. Back to the time magic example, you can make it so that your spells either stun or other time related effects, and give the enemy a state rate 50% if they are resistant, or state immune if they are immune to it. Can work really well, as you can even make the more likely to be affected this way too (state rate 200% for example). You can do similar things with the other elements in the end. To give you an idea, I'll post how I did it for the elements in my game (in a spoiler)

Spoiler

I have 8 elements in my game, plus the different physical elements for the case where you attack a skeleton with a sword. The 8 elements are:


Fire: Main damage element, high variance though as fire is unpredictable. Gets AOE spells early. Final spells hit really hard.


Water: Hybrid healer and damage dealer, though fair at both. Think Red Mage from FF games, capped at the lower level spells (I have them stop at level 6, of 8). Though they way I set it up, you'd only notice the cap if you level into the 50's and 60's, which most RPGMaker games don't do.


Air: Time manipulation. Can slow down and speed up the targets, grant extra attacks, block missile attacks, and even make a duplicate of the target so they can get an extra action. Also throws electricity around and uses cloud spells to shock enemies over time.


Earth: Throws up barriers which block damage. Also a weak healer in a pinch (stops at level 3 healing spells, of 8), and has decent single target damage spells. Gets the Meteor spell though late game which hits HARD.


Energy: Mana drain spells, and also uses spells which reduces MP cost for the party. In addition, all Energy spells do a flat damage, no MDF check is used to determine the damage. The flat damage is low early game, but late game they will be one of the most deadly spell casters.


Mind: Status aliments. They trick and deceive others by throwing out status aliments. In addition, they have single target damage spells, and a couple unpredictable multi-target (x random targets) spells that they get late.


Life: The main healer. Has all the healing type spells. Also gets Holy, and can boost a target's max HP in battle with buffs.


Death: Uses curse spells to make the target unable to be affected by certain positive spells (done with state rate: Immune to the state). Also has all the drain spells, and can drain HP from the target to substain themselves. Also has the Doom spell.  


Also, Fire and Water are opposites, Air and Earth are opposites, Life and Death are opposites, and Energy and Mind are opposites. That means they do 200% damage to the other element.

 

[Michael Caiola]

For me, the elements and spells are part of the story. I don't have a shop system or a bunch of weapons and armor, just some unique weapons to each player they get as the story progresses. Their skills and elements will serve as individual microplot drivers.


For example, the Fire Trigon's starting weapons will only inflict physical damage. There comes a point in the story where they come very close to losing and dying at the hands of a sub boss. The map or maps they're in at the time become impossible to navigate or battle through without certain fire-based traits and resistances. There's one battle in particular that they'll lose, and a cut scene will follow. The sub boss has then trappes and aims to deliver a final blow using a powerful fire attack. Leo (who already has a minor fire resistance, but not immunity) tries to protect Aries and Sagittarius but isn't strong enough. Apollo intervenes and gives Leo fire immunity and the other two fire resistance through either traits or armor. They're also gain fire as an attack element. This also allows them to swim through lava (Leo indefinitely, the other two limited time). All of this allows them to fight and defeat the sub boss, then navigate and battle through the maps to progress through the game. In order to plot this out I need to have an understand of my Fire heroes' elements.


The same will go for the others so I'm trying to figure it out now.


I like your elements. I have a lot of the same traits but with different elements. My Dark element kind of combines your Mind and Death elements. My Earth element combines tour Earth and Life elements.


Since each party only has three actors, I need to balance them between fighting, healing, and magic.

 

[Basileus]

@BryanBatcher


Still confused by the Time element, but I think I see how we are thinking differently. You seem to be thinking about the method the attack is delivered by, while I'm thinking about the end source of damage.


Think of it like this:


Fire attacks cause damage by using fire (duh) and fire hurts things because intense heat kills cells. But an enemy made of magically-animated rock should logically be resistant to "fire damage" because rock doesn't heat up easily.


Ice attacks cause damage by freezing things, and if you live somewhere with harsh winters then you've seen how devastating ice can be. An enemy plant monster should logically be weak to ice damage because frost is well known to kill crops.


Lightning attacks cause damage by passing high-voltage/high-amp electric current through the target. So living things take damage, but that rock golem should take no damage since it is naturally grounded and robot enemies should take extra damage because it fries their circuits.


"Time" doesn't seem like it can hurt things by itself. If you go back in time to stab someone, the time travel doesn't matter, it's still a stab wound. Time strikes me as a support thing since it enables other attacks but doesn't do much by itself. The only thing I can think of unique to time might be "Aging Damage" caused by rapidly aging a target, with anything immortal or impervious to age being immune (that rock golem seems like a good candidate here too). 


If only 1 hero gets "Time" attacks, be super careful how you handle that. There is a very good reason that the author of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure gives Time-based powers to his main villains - because anyone that could freely manipulate time would be invincible. Part 3 villain DIO shows us that just stopping time for 5 seconds is massively OP. Other powers like time skipping, time reset, time rewind, etc. just render most of the other characters more victims than anything. Is the hero with Time powers the main character, or some kind of mentor figure? I'm really curious why he would get such a unique power if they are all supposed to be equals. If time powers are important to the plot and only this one character gets them I would assume that he's either the protagonist, the villain, the MacGuffin, or a walking Deus Ex Machina. Time travel is infamously hard to write and nearly as hard to make balanced gameplay for if it does anything more than speeding things up or slowing them down - maybe a brief stasis effect, but getting to do things like erasing things from time can break the gameplay/story in half.


As for the "Physical" split; that's just something I like to do sometimes. Different weapons attack in different ways, so it makes the characters feel less "samey" if their weapons work slightly differently. Not sure what weapons each of your characters get, but since every character has physical attacks I would be super hesitant to make a "Physical Element" hero - it just seems like every other character would be doing his job better. You can make simple weapon damage types like "Axe" or "Hammer" and such. Skeleton enemies could be weak to Hammer damage since they have no skin and ligaments to hold them together so they just get smashed into powder. Tree enemies can be weak to "Axe" damage since an axe would be naturally better at chopping through bark and into wood that a sword or spear.


Since every hero seems to get physical attacks, I would go with at least a basic "physical damage" type (ghosts can be immune to force the player to use magic skills) but making a "Physical Element" hero risks overlap causing them to suck. Each "Element" should be considered as a "damage type" even if you choose to call it by something else in the end. "Fire Element" could easily be "Heat Element" if you want, or you can make a "Light Element" with lasers that also do "heat damage" but are different thematically, giving the player 2 sources of "heat damage" to choose from. Just look at the whole collection of skills you want them to have and then determine what kind of damage they are doing to kill their enemies - each damage type needs to be a specific way to kill enemies, otherwise you can just reuse damage types but with different thematics and visuals.

 

[Michael Caiola]

You seem to be thinking about the method the attack is delivered by, while I'm thinking about the end source of damage.

I am. I'm thinking your way makes more sense.

The only thing I can think of unique to time might be "Aging Damage" caused by rapidly aging a target, with anything immortal or impervious to age being immune (that rock golem seems like a good candidate here too).

Yeah, I have that in there.

I would be super hesitant to make a "Physical Element" hero - it just seems like every other character would be doing his job better.

I wasn't trying to make a physical element hero, just a hero that doesn't use magic.

Anyone that could freely manipulate time would be invincible. Part 3 villain DIO shows us that just stopping time for 5 seconds is massively OP.

His abilities are limited. He can't actually time travel. He can't freeze general time, only special time for one enemy at a time. He can turn back time for the party, not the enemies (still figuring out an in game reason, maybe they have to be willing) and only to how they were at the start of the battle. There's the rapid aging skill, future shock (casts a spell that does damage a few turns later, this would also be time damage).


I know how hard time travel is to write. If you ask my fiancee, I'm always *****ing about it during TV shows and movies. So I don't intend for him to able to do anything that would create a butterfly effect or paradox.


Also, I'm going to offset these abilities so they're not OP. Time lock would be limited to only a few turns, and it would prevent the enemy from being healed or damaged. It will also cost a lot of MP so it can't be done often. It will act more of a stalling technique.


Turning back time will obviously be a double edged sword because it would remove any buffs the party members had. This would also cost a lot of MP.

 

[Wavelength]

@Basileus touched on this a bit, but I think that the point needs re-stating: A character's "element" doesn't need to be his damage type.


Damage types are used in almost every single RPG, whereas only a small number of them actually have a need or a good use for them.  If you can spell out a clear benefit for your gameplay deriving from each character being arbitrarily stronger or weaker against certain enemies than others, then damage types may be a smart add - Pokemon (where you need to build a roster composed of multiple teammates that can only fight one at a time) and League of Legends (where you can dynamically itemize during the game against specific members of the other team who are becoming too strong) both present good cases for multiple types of damage.  Most games can't make this case, and should completely remove the concept of damage "types".


That doesn't mean that you can't have different elements for your characters, though!  One of the coolest things you can do when you design a character's kit is to give them multiple skills that fit a common theme or purpose, especially if it meshes well with the character's personality and aesthetics.  Headstrong gambler?  Give them skills that revolve around controlling risk.  Protective type that can't stand the thought of losing someone they love?  Give them skills that revolve around healing or covering allies.  Mild-mannered type with an uncontrolled superpower?  Create their kit around cycles of peaks and troughs in their power.  Capricious world-renowned magitech reseracher?  Create their kit around breaking or manipulating the normal rules of battle.  Elements are a good way to do this too - fire-types might deal tons of AoE damage, ice-types might directly disable enemies, earth-types might create defenses for the team, poison-types might specialize in damage over time or improving allies' physical attacks, energy-types might manipulate mana as well as dealing damage, dark-types might make it impossible for enemies to do very specific things.  This kind of stylistic approach to elements is almost always better than a direct "this type does more damage to these enemies and this type does less damage to these enemies" type of deal.

 

[YoraeRasante]

That is a good point you two bring: the term "element" not being used as damage type, but as theme for their skills.


But while in narrative it is great, I really think he is talking about damage types here, the way he was talking about physical damage being an element.


Oh, I mentioned this when I talked about his Time element, even if not that eloquently, that it was more of a skill type than a damage type, but then he said he had plans for also making Time a damage type.

 

[Wavelength]

That is a good point you two bring: the term "element" not being used as damage type, but as theme for their skills.


But while in narrative it is great, I really think he is talking about damage types here, the way he was talking about physical damage being an element.


Oh, I mentioned this when I talked about his Time element, even if not that eloquently, that it was more of a skill type than a damage type, but then he said he had plans for also making Time a damage type.

I agree - while it wasn't explicitly stated in the OP, some of Bryan's recent messages lead me to believe he was using each element as a damage type.  And I do think that would be a design mistake unless there's a really good reason why time damage, fire damage, and light damage need to be treated differently.

 

[YoraeRasante]

Well, according to him Time-related damage skills would do damage even when the target is immune to the usual damage because it has an extra dimension to the attack.I admit I didn't get it much, but I took it as the skill being dual-elemental with the second element being "Time", and the damage coming from the strongest element. It sounds very overpowered, though.


Light... I don't know what you mean. Light is a classic element, opposite to Darkness. It is usually holy energy, while Fire is high heat. Making them more alike, that would be new ground.

 

[LaFlibuste]

I think a lot of very interesting things has been said on the principle of elements and how and why design such a system. I have read  a bunch of my replies, so here's my opinion on your personal project and the issues I see:


I think something is fundamentally clashing in your lore/setting and you have trouble reconciling the two. On one side, you have your 12 zodiac heroes split into elemental trigons (based on the greek elements). This works because it is established on something solid and well known. But then you graft a greek god unto each hero and you mix elements up. The time one in particular seems to get you pretty riled up, to the point that it sounds so special to you that it might actually look like it's the most finely designed character, unbalancing your twelve heres/four trigons thing. Also, how is a character part of say the wind trigon and not wind elemental but time elemental? Sounds a bit weird to me.


IMHO, for your concept to really work, each character has to feel as finely designed, as special. They also can't detract too much from the elemental trigon they're a part of. One solution could be flushing the greek god thing altogether. I'm pretty sure you won't do this. Another could be giving each character a specialization. This could work since you have already assigned a greek god to every character. What this would mean is each character's element is their trigon's, but their skill types, effects and method of delivery could vary depending on their specialization. So time, lust, lightning, etc. would not be "elements" (as in "damage types") but would still feel like a core art of the game, characters specialization (or sub-elements if you will). Here are a few random examples (might differ from your match ups, it's just for the sake of demonstration:

The water trigon could go as follow:
Pisces - tied to Poseidon - specialization pure water - Has a few water spells like Bubbles, Water Jet, Tidal Wave, etc., but mostly deals with healing and regeneration. Maybe has some states-inducing spells like slow. All the damage spell deal water damage.
Cancer - tied to whoever - specialization ice - Has cold spells like snow storm, icicle, etc. They still technically do "water damage". Could have defence boosting spells like ice carapace and be this party's tank. Could also have a few states like slow or freeze.


Scorpio - tied to Hades - specialization death - Has a will arrangement of utility spells like instant death, poisons, acids, etc. All is damage dealing spells still deal "water damage", though, but maybe they hurt more or something. Could have a decent strength stat and be this party's damage dealer


I won't do this for every trigon, but in such a system your Aphrodite hero would have a lust specialization and have spells built around enticing enemies and using their capabilities against them. It could also be his trigon's healer, maybe. Your Kronos time hero would still deal earth damage (since you said he was capricorn and it's earth) but have utility skills built around time (healing by going back in time, etc.). Your Zeus hero would have high-single target lightning spells, although it would actually deal wind damage (or whatever his trigon is).



I would advocate two last things:
 


First, in such a system, it means every hero uses a certain measure of magic, there'd be no pure physical hero. This however doesn't prevent you from having a more physical-oriented hero. For example, maybe you Leo Hero (Fire) is tied to Ares and channels his magic through his sword, doing flame strikes & such. Feels physical, but is still magical.

Second, I would recommend diversity. Don't start with the mindset that each trigon needs a healer, a warrior and a mage. They will all feel similar and bland. Mix things up a bit! They all need a certain measure of support, durability and damage dealing, but find different ways to achieve this. Like with the water trigon I described above, where the warrior and mage archetypes are kinda mixed and split between cancer and scorpio: cancer actually sounds like he has the damage-dealing spells, making him sound like he's the mage, but with spells like ice-carapace (could be self-targetable only?) he also kinda is the tank, while Scorpio has some damage dealing but most of a mage's offensive-utility stuff, and could be the physical damage dealer, fighting with a spear or whatever could remind you of the scorpio's tail, a kind of glass cannon.


So to resume: If I were you, I'd stick with 5 damage types because this is what fits your setting and makes sense: physical, water, fire, wind & earth. Any additional damage type will, in my humble opinion, feel tacked on and will clash in weird ways with your lore. Make those extra ideas into specialization to help you differentiate your 12 hero's spells, stats and looks.

 

[Basileus]

@Wavelength


Honestly, I'd be terrified of making a game with one a single, generic damage type. Unless it was a super short mobile game - like a platformer - I'm not sure how that could create strategic depth or engaging gameplay. When I think about it, it would either render all skills null and void (just equip the biggest sword and hit things, it's all the same), or cause the player to only ever use one skill until they get a better one (no reason to ever use anything but the skill with the highest numbers). 


I feel that having multiple damage types is very important for any game that focuses on combat, and it can even be seen in action games and sometimes FPS games. If the solution to every combat encounter is "hit it with a stick till it dies" then there is no challenge or puzzle to the combat system. Making an enemy that takes almost no damage from physical attacks but is weak to magic damage creates a sort of puzzle the player can work out. They could just bash it to death over an hour, or they could try magic and feel good for finding the "trick" to beating it easier.


More damage types allows for more creative puzzles. It's not the end-all, be-all but it serves an important role in making combat feel more engaging. 


Also, there's something to be said about the realism factor. There's a very good reason that humans have invented so many types of specialized weapons. If every skill hit all enemies equally, then what would be the point of doing anything cool and thematic with skills in the first place?


@LaFlibuste


You make a good point on the issues with the team set ups. If everything is too scattered there is a strong chance that the hero teams won't have any kind of cohesion. That can be a huge problem from both a plot and game balance perspective.


I second the notion that the heroes should be grouped in a logically and balanced fashion. Specifically, each Elemental group is going to need the basic roles covered; DPS, Healer, Tank, Buffer/Debuffer, etc. It's fine it each group specializes in one aspect and is weaker in the others - combat encounters in each chapter can be tailored to the current party's strengths and weaknesses after all. But there needs to be some semblance that each hero group can function on their own if you are going to have the player using only the heroes of a single Element group for an entire chapter each. Having one group with no healing, or one that only physical attacks might be too tedious. 


Just come up with thematic skills for the basic necessary combat roles and you should be fine. 


Also, you should totally consider making some cool, thematic out-of-combat abilities that the different heroes can use to solve puzzles. Like forming and pushing ice blocks, or lighting torches, or accelerating time to rot a wooden barrier to smash it. Just the puzzle solving potential of your heroes specialties can make for great gameplay, so if needed don't be afraid to simplify the combat and reduce the damage types.

 

[Michael Caiola]

If you can spell out a clear benefit for your gameplay deriving from each character being arbitrarily stronger or weaker against certain enemies than others, then damage types may be a smart add

I'm working on it.

That doesn't mean that you can't have different elements for your characters, though!  One of the coolest things you can do when you design a character's kit is to give them multiple skills that fit a common theme or purpose, especially if it meshes well with the character's personality and aesthetics.

That's the goal.

I really think he is talking about damage types here, the way he was talking about physical damage being an element.

I am. But I'm wondering if I should fall somewhere in between.

On one side, you have your 12 zodiac heroes split into elemental trigons (based on the greek elements). This works because it is established on something solid and well known. But then you graft a greek god unto each hero and you mix elements up.

I drew the gods from the zodiacs. Each one is in the dominion of a god.

The time one in particular seems to get you pretty riled up, to the point that it sounds so special to you that it might actually look like it's the most finely designed character, unbalancing your twelve heres/four trigons thing.

Nah, that's just the one I talk about the most.

Also, how is a character part of say the wind trigon and not wind elemental but time elemental? Sounds a bit weird to me.

Yeah, that's been vexing me.

One solution could be flushing the greek god thing altogether. I'm pretty sure you won't do this.

Nope. The plot revolves around the gods. Removing them removes the story.

Another could be giving each character a specialization. This could work since you have already assigned a greek god to every character. What this would mean is each character's element is their trigon's, but their skill types, effects and method of delivery could vary depending on their specialization. So time, lust, lightning, etc. would not be "elements" (as in "damage types") but would still feel like a core art of the game, characters specialization (or sub-elements if you will).

I'm flirting with this idea.

If the solution to every combat encounter is "hit it with a stick till it dies" then there is no challenge or puzzle to the combat system.

Now I want to make a game where you just beat your enemy with a stick until it dies.

or accelerating time to rot a wooden barrier to smash it.

This is a really creative idea. Thank you.

Just the puzzle solving potential of your heroes specialties can make for great gameplay, so if needed don't be afraid to simplify the combat and reduce the damage types.

I hadn't put any thought into that, but now I will. That will really help me figure this out.


Maybe this will help. Here's my hero setup:


Zodiac -> God -> Style


Fire Trigon


Aries -> Ares -> fights with weapons (physical), doesn't use magic


Leo -> Apollo -> fights with fire


Sagittarius -> Zeus -> fights with bows and thunder/lightning


Earth Trigon


Taurus -> Aphrodite -> made of rock/magma, so fights with earth and (to a lesser extent) fire and physical


Virgo -> Hermes -> fights with earth/nature


Capricorn -> Kronos -> manipulates time and uses some light magic


Air Trigon


Gemini -> Hermes -> fights with weapons (physical) and air/wind magic


Libra -> Aphrodite -> fights with projectile weapons (using air/wind to project them), uses lust based skills (lust is no longer an element, just a description)


Aquarius -> Uranus -> fights with weapons, this is my least developed character


Water Trigon


Cancer -> Artemis  -> the signs also have corresponging solar system bodies and Cancer's is the moon, so she is purely magical with her skill based on darkness and lunar energy, (can also use some light magic since the moon reflects sunlight)


Scorpio -> Hades -> fights with his tail and specializes in poison


Pisces -> Poseidon -> fights with spears and and trident, uses water and ice magic


Even typing this I know it's a lot. But my goal is to balance each and every character so it doesn't feel like you're playing with 12 completely separate characters. They'll all be unique, of course, but they will compliment each other in their trigons and feel like parts in a machine, so to speak.


I know I have issues with a lot of these and that's why I'm looking for advice. Advice which I am endlessly grateful for.


Do you think something like this would work?


Damage types: Fire, Earth, Air, Water


Thematic sub-elements (not damage types):


Fire -> Light, Thunder


Earth -> Stone, Nature, Time


Air ->  Lust


Water -> Ice, Poison, Dark


Maybe swap Ice and water?

 

[Basileus]

@BryanBatcher


Okay I'm starting to see what you're working with here. This is a pretty good base, so most of what you need just comes down to designating combat roles and actually coming up with skills for everyone.


Also, is there a plot reason you re-used Hermes and Aphrodite? Because you seem to have left out Hera, Hestia, Hephaestus, Athena, and Demeter, so I'm not sure if it's just a typo or not. Not totally sure how the Zodiac works but a little re-imagining to avoid crossover might help.


Fire Trigon:


Aries (Warrior) / Leo (Mage??) / Sagittarius (Archer)


Aries seems like a really basic Warrior/Fighter - like a Knight but with no magic. Consider giving him multiple weapon types that he can switch between as a Master-at-Arms sort of thing. A few "battle trick" skills like tossing sand could be good too.


Leo...I get that Sagittarius is the Archer, but Apollo is an archer where Zeus was not...is it possible to switch? Either way, the one aligned with Apollo can get awesome solar spells like a Sunburst or Solar Flare. Plenty of fire to dish out with cool thematics.


Sagittarius...again, a sun-powered flame archer could be boss. Zeus brings the lightning bolts whether he's with Sagittarius or Leo.


Earth Trigon:


Taurus (Warrior?) / Virgo (Priest? Mage?) / Capricorn (Mage?)


Taurus...to avoid overlap, would it be possible to switch him to Gaia? She fits in perfectly as mother of Kronos - and you already have his father Uranus. And as the literal embodiment of the Earth itself the skills and spells write themselves. Earthquake is a must.


Virgo...According to a quick search, Virgo seems to be aligned with both Mercury (Hermes) and Ceres, a dwarf planet named after the Roman Goddess Ceres, analogous to the Greek Goddess Demeter whose domain is grain and fertility. So it might be better to switch Virgo to Demeter. This could be represented with spells that grow plants super fast and possibly some healing spells.


Capricorn should be relatively straight-forward. Time-based support spells with a few offensive attack spells. An excellent choice for some out-of-combat puzzle support and possibly secondary healing.


Wind Trigon:


Gemini (Magic Knight) / Libra (Rogue?) / Aquarius (Warrior?)


Gemini strikes me as a hero balanced between physical attacks with his weapon and some simple magic. Hermes is a much better fit in this trigon since he's well-known for his speed and flying sandals. Also medicine, so consider a healing spell even if he isn't the main healer.


Libra might be a rogue, using projectile weapons like thrown knives and using unfair attacks like seduction which might immobilize or stuns enemies. Or possibly a heavily armored knight good at getting the enemy to focus him. Whichever you want to go with, but the rogue fits with the light-and-nimble impression of wind.


Aquarius...yeah, could be pretty much anything. At this point you could use him to fill whatever gaps the other two leave in the party formation. If they're both lightly-armored consider making him a tank of sorts. Uranus is the embodiment of the skies/heavens so perhaps some support type spells or you can take a more mystical approach and make  him a master Magus with complete dominion of powerful wind attack spells. If Gemini only gets weaker spells, then Aquarius could be the heavy-magic specialist.


Water Trigon:


Cancer (Mage?) / Scorpio (Rogue) / Pisces (Magic Knight)


Artemis should probably use a bow, both as a Goddess of the Hunt and as the sister of Apollo. You can do a lot with their Sun / Moon dynamic too. Since the moon controls the tides, maybe give her some water spells like a Tidal Wave?


Scorpio seems to fit the Rogue, fighting with poisons and whittling foes down before going in for the kill. Poison and debuffs and he should be fine.


Pisces seems pretty solid too as a lance/spear-wielding Knight with magic. Maybe give him a jumping-plunging attack like the Final Fantasy dragoons if you want.


Overall, I can see your parties being relatively balanced. You need to keep a close eye on the actual in-combat roles they all serve though. And if you bring them all together later in the story, having some unique abilities will prevent overlap and make sure all of them have their place in a final party. The spells can be as whimsical and awe-striking as you want...seriously, go nuts here. If you control the actual damage-typing for gameplay balance purposes, then you can just go full ham on the thematic aspect of invoking the powers of each of the Gods and Goddesses.

 

[Michael Caiola]

I really, really, really like this. You've taken the ideas I have floating around in my head and extrapolated them beautifully. I will definitely be using a lot of this. Thank you.


I don't know how I missed Ceres in my research, but you are spot on with her being perfect for Virgo. That fills a hole I've been stressing about since day one.


I reused Hermes and Aphrodite because Mercury and Venus are each sign rules for two Zodiacs. Now that I've got Ceres, I don't have to reuse Hermes. AND I completely forgot about Hermes's speed and sandals. You just gave me two new ways to identify my characters with their respective gods. Thank you.


As for Leo and Sagittarius, again those are the sign rulers. I know Apollo is an archer and would fit perfectly with Sagittarius, but I want to stick to theme and not break my own rules. That said, Sagittarius will have some fire power. All three fire signs get a fire uprade to their weapons and (for Aries) armor. Which will be a nice bonus for Aries since he doesn't use magic.


I came to the same conflict with Cancer. I didn't draw anything from Artemis because she didn't fit the theme I was going for. Cancer's sign ruler is the moon, and I can't remember why I chose Artemis over the other gods related to the moon. Probably because she's Apollo's twin. I did plan to have them interact during party team ups later on and have special team abilities. On that note, is it possible to do team attacks?


Right now Cancer is just straight up dark mage with no weapons, but giving her a bow might help. She could use spells to give her arrows different abilites. And it does fit the Artemis/archer theme.


I also just realized... why can't I have two archers in the fire trigon? Sometimes when I try to think outside the box I end up putting myself into another box. What do you think of two archers? Leo will still be mostly fire magic.


You pretty much nailed where I was going with Pisces and Scorpio. Speaking of debuffs, how exactly do those work? In the database, I see debuff options but I can't set a percentage or anything, and you have to choose how many turns. I'm not sure how to use them. Or buffs for that matter.


For Taurus, the sign rulers is the planet Venus, which translates to the goddess Venus or Aphrodite. Same with Libra, which is why she uses lust skills. But Taurus is an Earth sign, so I chose to align him to with the planet's attributes, that is constant volcanic activity. So he's a minotaur made of obsidian whose God Mode has his body cracking and showing magma underneath. I'm content with it and I don't think reusing Venus/Aphrodite will be an issue since the two characters are well developed.

 

[Feliaria]

I came to the same conflict with Cancer. I didn't draw anything from Artemis because she didn't fit the theme I was going for. Cancer's sign ruler is the moon, and I can't remember why I chose Artemis over the other gods related to the moon. Probably because she's Apollo's twin. I did plan to have them interact during party team ups later on and have special team abilities. On that note, is it possible to do team attacks?

I know there's one of these somewhere, but now I cannot for the life of me find it. :/


I'll let you know when I find it, I'll keep looking for it.

 

[YoraeRasante]

Well, if it helps the moon goddesses are Artemis, Selene and Hecate. Selene is the only one I think is linked only to the moon.

 

[Kes]

Given how she is viewed, I would have thought that Hecate would be your best bet for the moon as she brings a range of (imo) very appropriate attributes.

 

[Michael Caiola]

Well, if it helps the moon goddesses are Artemis, Selene and Hecate. Selene is the only one I think is linked only to the moon.

Given how she is viewed, I would have thought that Hecate would be your best bet for the moon as she brings a range of (imo) very appropriate attributes.

I'm pretty sure I went with Artemis because she's Apollo's twin.

 

[YoraeRasante]

I'd like to point out that sun was originally domain of Helios, who is the brother of Selene, and Apollo was the god of Light.