Too many elements? Too many heroes?

TheTsunaru

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I can KIND of understand your friend thinking 15 was too many (especially since a couple of them seem like almost identicals), but your list of 9 is by no means too much. I only checked FF4 through FF9, but each one of those games had 8 or 9 elements (+1 if you count physical, +1 more if you count unaspected magic like Comet), so I'm not sure where their argument of Final Fantasy games not having that many comes from. And poison is its own element in half of those games as well, though it is a rarer element in other franchises.


Ultimately, the only thing that really matters with elements is proper balancing. So long as you can have proper balancing with elements weaknesses and resistances, even 15 should be fine (although it might be weird with an odd number of characters, unless one of them was made an unaspected type with no weakness or resistance).
 

M.I.A.

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Balance is important. 


Just an FYI insight, I just added a new Element to my database: "Salt". 


It wont be listed as an Element next to Fire, Ice, Bolt, etc., because it's very uncommon and only useful to occasional foes.


The only way the Player will know how and when to use it, is in the Skill Description. The skill is listed as an Earth element, but will contain a line in the description with details such as:


Purifying Salt: Causes Ghost targets to remain unable to act.


-and-


Corrosive Salt: Will damage Metalic or Ice based targets. Will remove "Frozen State" from target.


Hope you find this helpful!! :)


-Mia
 

AiryCarTyre

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I don't want to get too realistic here, but Obsidian is really fragile. Unless it's some kind of magical Obsidian thing, then I dunno
 

Michael Caiola

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If it's your first project, I would strongly advice you to try to keep things a bit simpler and keep your idea of zodiac heroes etc for a later project.
For a first project, you'll want to keep it straight to the point and simple , which doesn't mean making a sub-par game.


That doesn't work for me. I have an idea and I want to make it a reality. I don't mind learning along the way.

I'll chime in on this one too.


I don't think it's necessarily how many is too many as it is how are they all implemented.


For the majority of my projects, I use small algorithms and formulae to make damage output reliable and predictable. In most of these projects, I will include roughly 6 "Elements" (Fire, Light, Ice, Earth, Darkness, & Poison). These are pretty typical to presume what and how they function. Fire Element Vs. Ice-Based monsters.. Light Vs. Undead, Poison Vs. Human/Beast foes.


These may be the only "elements" I disclose openly to the player. I will also have, however, upwards of 20 other "Elements" that I use during development.. or that are so rare in use that I don't feel they really even warrant informing the Player of in a formal setting. I will typically inform the Player in an informal setting. A couple examples of these types of "elements" are as follows:


-Vs. Aquatic (or Vs. Flying, or Vs. Rodent, etc.). Anything specializing in taking down a specific type of enemy may only be referenced in the Skill or Weapon description such as [Vorpal Blade: A wicked knife that deals 2x Damage to Rabbits] or [Atmos Gust: A celestial torrent from up-high that damages only Flying foes]


-Silver/Wooden (or any other specific material). These are more like attributes to me than they are Elements, but I handle them in the database the same as Elements.


[Silver Sword: Forged of pure Silver to take down the howlers of the night!] or [Wooden Staff/Wooden Knife: Vampires beware, this weapon was made to cause you pain].


-Earth-Ground.. this is an Earth Element extension that I add to "Quake" or "Quicksand" type skills. I label it as "Earth" in the skill descriptions, but any foe that is flying or in water is otherwise immune.. while some other Earth Element skills (such as Stone Throw, Geode, or Salt Bath) will still hit those same foes.


Hell, I even have one Element I use for Debug purposes only: "Psycho-Killer". All foes cannot resist this Element. It's applied only to , for my debug mode only. :)


 


In summary, I will typically have around 20-25 Elements, but only 6 or 7 will be readily presented to the Player as part of the standard knowledge for battle purposes. :)


 


Hope you find this helpful.


-Mia


I like that setup. I might even do something similar myself.

Fire vs Ice


Water vs Lightning


Earth vs Wind


Light vs Dark


Those are typically the 8 Elements. Physical I wouldn't classify as an Element, because I've always just seen it as a way of breaking up a Physical and a Magical attack. If they're Physical, they get Physical. If they're Magical, they get an Element. If they're a Hybrid, they get mixed.


In my current game though, the only Elements available to the player is Fire, Lightning, Ice and Light. The other Elements are known, and seen, but aren't used. Dark is especially used by enemies, but is hard to control. The way I've always looked at it, when you design and get your elements, make sure they counter each other, cause Elements require balance and that they make sense. Lust for example, seems weird as an Element cause it's an Emotion. Time I COULD see as an Element if it was limited, so time travel and all that would be like... forgotten, but you could briefly speed up or slow time like Haste and Slow, and for the attacking versions of it you could summon small meteors and stuff. When I imagine Time as an Element, I think Time AND Space, but it's an old element, and most of its forgotten, like Time Travel.


I broke Physical down into the standard blunt, cut, pierce as damage types, but not thematic elements. I replaced Light vs Dark with Energy vs Time which is going to have a really fun mechanic. I have life and death damage types, and I'm going to combine them with Energy to make Light and Dark type effects. Energy + Life = Light. Energy + Death = Dark. It won't be explicit, but it'll be easy to figure out based on who is using the skills and how they are used.


Time is definitely limited. I'm not effing around with time travel. Time based characters will have the ability to manipulate local time. Any time skills that do damage will only have Time as an element. Unless the target has Energy or Time traits, the damage done will basically be typeless.

I can KIND of understand your friend thinking 15 was too many (especially since a couple of them seem like almost identicals), but your list of 9 is by no means too much. I only checked FF4 through FF9, but each one of those games had 8 or 9 elements (+1 if you count physical, +1 more if you count unaspected magic like Comet), so I'm not sure where their argument of Final Fantasy games not having that many comes from. And poison is its own element in half of those games as well, though it is a rarer element in other franchises.


Ultimately, the only thing that really matters with elements is proper balancing. So long as you can have proper balancing with elements weaknesses and resistances, even 15 should be fine (although it might be weird with an odd number of characters, unless one of them was made an unaspected type with no weakness or resistance).


I don't know where exactly he was getting it from. But since I've scaled it back I think I can make it work.

i always thought oblivion had wayyy to many classes, 21 premade classes. so knock yourself out. I would like 100 elements so as long as i can beat the game with  FUN/interesting combinations of elements.


That is... a lot. Lol.

Balance is important. 


Just an FYI insight, I just added a new Element to my database: "Salt". 


It wont be listed as an Element next to Fire, Ice, Bolt, etc., because it's very uncommon and only useful to occasional foes.


The only way the Player will know how and when to use it, is in the Skill Description. The skill is listed as an Earth element, but will contain a line in the description with details such as:


Purifying Salt: Causes Ghost targets to remain unable to act.


-and-


Corrosive Salt: Will damage Metalic or Ice based targets. Will remove "Frozen State" from target.


Hope you find this helpful!! :)


-Mia


That's really clever.

I don't want to get too realistic here, but Obsidian is really fragile. Unless it's some kind of magical Obsidian thing, then I dunno


Ssssshhhhh!!! Don't tell my Taurus hero that!
 

M.I.A.

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I'm glad you find it helpful @Michael Caiola


My mission when I work on projects is to make the databasing and other "behind the curtains" work as simple and efficient for me, while still accomplishing all the features I am trying to create in the game.. all while making it as easy for the Player to understand what to expect going into battles.


:)


It's a tricky balance. 


Not as though my way is the only way or the best way, but after I release this project, my aim is to release the database and Dev notes after a while has passed as well. So others may see how to accomplish similar features that i had included. :)


-Mia
 
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Michael Caiola

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That's pretty awesome of you.


And if I haven't told you already, your avatar is amazing. It's my childhood personified.
 

M.I.A.

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@Michael Caiola,


off topic: Have younplayed Chroma Squad? Available on Steam for a couple bucks. It's Power Rangers meets pop references, meets Final Fantasy Tactics. Lol. It's a hilarious good time.


on topic: In my current project, I now have 42 "Elements". Again, only 8 of which are ready available for the player to see. 


Lightning gained a new "sub-element"; Magnetism. It's a lightning skill, but does special damage to robotic foes.
 

Kes

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Lightning gained a new "sub-element"; Magnetism. It's a lightning skill, but does special damage to robotic foes.
Just reading this (it may be different in game) this seems to be an illustration of a problem with high numbers of elements.  i.e. a change that makes no difference.


How does having a sub-element which does special damage to X differ from inflicting something in particular on certain types of foes through ordinary use of the damage formula box?  For example:


enemy weak to fire - fire skill also inflicts a DEF debuff else normal damage.


So to take your robot example, using the damage formula I could, say, use a lightning skill which also sealed the skills of robots only, leaving them with just default attack (equals knocks out their circuitry in the skill description for the benefit of the player).  The benefit of that for the player is that they don't have to remember endless elements, they just need to know that skill X will fry the circuits of any mechanical enemy.  The benefit for the developer is that you don't have to come up with those endless elements.
 

richter_h

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Skimming through the thread, and yes, I would argue that the elements you proposed to your system are a bit too many.


Taking a glance to these listed elements, and based in fact that you're drawing into Pokemon and its plethora of element interactions also with some feedback from fellas around here...

Physical, Fire, Light, Thunder


Earth, Stone, Poison, Time


Air, Lust, Flying


Water, Ice, Dark, Energy


First of all, @Michael Caiola, I have to say that I don't fancy any other elements than the fundamentals (fire, water, earth, air) and three unrelated yet exist elements (dark, light, neutral), but I'll try to cope with secondary or ternary elements although I prefer them to be called "Property" instead of "Element".


To keep in mind: there must be reasons why such element exists, and if there's redundancy with other existing elements, you have to judge which element should be there and which one should be assimilated into other said elements. Element like Ice, as example, is still having its domain property (which is water, strong against fire but weak against earth) but having property akin to Earth or even Stone (which is solid, strong against wind).


AFAIK elements exist in RPGs for balancing purposes besides of its role in particular stuff (character or monster's affinity, insignia, or gimmick in general), so it would be good idea if you can connect all of the existing elements proposed to your system while keeping them make sense either story-wise and system-wise. Would be better if there's damage readjustment when one element reacts with another, like Fire will deal only 50% damage to Water, 25% to Ice, 150% to Wind, 75% to Earth and Stone.


About "Properties", you can trait them as secondary elements which interacts in the same way as Elements do, like how usually happened in Pokemon games. No problem.


Well, it's your game, your proposed system, and I find this one is relatively the same as how game rules work. And yes, like I've mentioned above in emboldened sentence, you have to ask yourself why such element should exists before you implement it into your system. 


Also remember, just because you can, it doesn't always mean you should.


Cheers~

P.S.: I've meddled with about 40 characters + 20 type of monsters that unique each other, yet still playing with only 7 elements (but over 120 states), and the result was a seemingly never ending balancing works. Not a very good thing when it comes to maintaining game system lol
 
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Silenity

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Personally, I'd get rid of stone as it's very similar to earth. Poison as I've never viewed it as its own element except for Pokemon. Flying as it's very similar to air. Lust because it just seems strange for someone to be weak to lust except for like 1 or 2 pervy dudes. Time seems out of place as an element type.
 
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M.I.A.

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Just reading this (it may be different in game) this seems to be an illustration of a problem with high numbers of elements.  i.e. a change that makes no difference.


How does having a sub-element which does special damage to X differ from inflicting something in particular on certain types of foes through ordinary use of the damage formula box?  For example:


enemy weak to fire - fire skill also inflicts a DEF debuff else normal damage.


So to take your robot example, using the damage formula I could, say, use a lightning skill which also sealed the skills of robots only, leaving them with just default attack (equals knocks out their circuitry in the skill description for the benefit of the player).  The benefit of that for the player is that they don't have to remember endless elements, they just need to know that skill X will fry the circuits of any mechanical enemy.  The benefit for the developer is that you don't have to come up with those endless elements.


It is very different in game. There is nothing the player has to memorize. It's stated right there in the flavor text that it's a lightning spell that's super effect against robot types, etc. blah, blah.


it would have the same effect as regular lightning would to any other foes, it's just an especially effective spell vs. robots. It's handled the same as any other elemental weaknesses or resistances. 


Any effects (such as inflicting status, de/buffs, etc.) would be handled just the same as a Flash/Dark skill that may also inflicts blindness.


For this particular project, I use very small and predictable formulae when dealing damage or inflicting statuses. 


And yes, there is much more to the skill than I mentioned previously, the purpose of those posts are to show how it's not so much how many or how few elements you include in your database, but how it is implemented into the game and whether you give enough information to the player so they have a basic understanding of their effects, and when a skill element deviates from those basic effects, then how readily understood that new effect will operate.


I'd disagree that a such a change (lightning +Magnet), makes no difference.. when in my project, Robotic foes are healed by Lightning.. so in having a lightning+magnet (or Vs. Robot) element in game is handy. Telling the player that this skill deviates from the usual "lightning heals robots" would make a difference in a skill choice based game. 


TL:DR-


Imagine Spear weapon..


Imagine a spear weapon, Trident, that does double damage to aquatic foes.


Imagine a "Coral Sword" that deals double damage and causes confuse to aquatic foes.


For Trident and Coral Sword, you simply create an Element (Vs Aquatic, or whatever) that you would assign only to Aquatic foes. All other foes would take damage as normal otherwise.


its not worth it to explain to the player: There are 79 Elements in this World. Earth, Fire, blah blah blah, Vs Aquatic, Vs Undead, etc.. wherein you could explain that there are 8 Elements of magic, and anything that deviates from that can be told in flavor Text of that skill, item, weapon, or whatever. 


&n
 
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Kes

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@Miacuro Please do not quote whole posts to indicate who you are replying to. This makes loading the page slow to load and slow to scroll down especially for those who are accessing this on their phones. If you want to make it clear who you are answering use the @username  convension as I have done with this post.


Thanks 
 

M.I.A.

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@ksjp17 Yup! I wasn't trying to quote the whole thing. Just the first sentiment and the first part of the third sentiment. But using these forums on the cellular is iffy at times. ?


-Mia
 

ashikai

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I actually think you have a far more fundamental issue with the way you are constructing both your lore and your game: you lack limitations.


Let's talk Pokémon since that's your main point of reference here. Pokémon has some odd 16 elements/types and over 850 Pokémon to choose from. However, you can only carry six with you at any given time, and each of those six can only use for moves for as long as they have PP/MP remaining. That's the equivalent of having a single actor with 24 equipable moves, groups of which can be disabled in groups of 1-4 (as the Pokémon is either incapacitated or runs out of PP). In addition to that, you can only swap out your movesets (Pokémon) at specific locations (PCs), and every Pokémon is restricted in exactly what moves they can learn. 


That is an example of limitations in a system where there would otherwise be, as your friend stated, to many elements or characters. 


Now let's talk SMT (persona or devil survivor because it's similar to Pokémon. Will probably reference persona more since it's simpler). 


SMT Persona handles elements very differently. There are seven elements plus one agnostic: phys, ice, fire, electric, zan/wind, light, dark, and almighty. Rather than just have enemies and characters be strong or weak, they add additional things like repels, drain or null. You might think having a character with a repel phys is awesome... Until you run into an enemy that mostly attacks phys, and then you repel that attack and they drain phys to heal up whatever damage you just dealt.


In addition to different weakness types, only the main character can swap out their equipped persona (which determines stats, elemental weaknesses AND skills) as well as weapons. The remaining seven characters have a single persona locked on them and can only use one weapon type. In addition, a single persona can only hold eight moves at any given time (Pokémon style). Add to that that your party can only be for characters at a time and you can only swap the MCs persona once per turn, and the battles become quite interesting.


Your game grossly lacks any limitations. Specifically:


-12 elements/gods/characters


-any weapon for any character


-no (known) spell pool or slot limit


-four parties


- team attacks


I understand not wanting to compromise on your vision, but it's crucial to limit both the players and the characters, in the story and the gameplay. Make your characters real people. A fantasy mom from a small village isn't likely to know how to weild a sword, spear and a crossbow. She could probably weild an axe, hammer, or frying pan though since she'd have been likely to use them in her daily life. A nine year old orphan probably knows how to run away and steal, but I doubt he could use a spell book or a great sword. A shield would probably tender him pretty useless too since he can't utilize his speed while carrying it.


To;dr limitations in the game are what make it fun, challenging and memorable. Make your characters into diverse people; build them up and have the plot kick the crap out of them. Also play/watch more RPGs and analyze them. Your frame of reference is currently too small, imo. 
 

Waterguy

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I'd like to point out the same applies to mainline Shin Megami Tensei, qith the main character, even when not being able to learn spells, having skills that depend on equipment. In 1 and 2, they got a sword for physical and a gun that can change elements. In 3, the main character changes Magatamas, which give different stats, and allows to learn the skills. In Strange Journey, same as 1 and 2, with the guns being both a "gun" element and having elemental attacks. And in 4 the main character can learn spells from their demons.
 

deilin

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@Basileus


Proper time is Omni to most other elements. It doesn't get effected by 3rd dimension elements, but does effect all 3rd dimension elements.


What is a 3rd dimension element? Pretty much any thing you consider an element and you can directly manipulate it, even without magic. It usually has some physical aspect to it.


Time can speed, or slow fire's consuming properties, and such.


Time is a 4th dimension property, meaning you have to break (or warp) it to manipulate it since we live in a 3rd dimension reality. Usually the person doesn't really understand the powers physics, but uses it anyways.


I always caution using time as an element because it is often used incorrectly, and confused with speed/gravity, or a paralysis, in other words, pretty much all RPGs and shows. If someone really had time powers, they probably die the first time they used it because they would be unprotected.


In an RPG, it really would have no projectable use in battle that would be worthy of the time unless you are adjusting regen/degen rates, or even the rec rate (how long any status effect can last).


As a general rule, time "guardian" are frowned from the following:


1) Freezing time, or a time stop. It's considered the greatest crime because you can manipulate almost anything.


2) Changing, or interacting, with the past. There is a cool theory that you can't actually change the past. If you did, something would happen that would reverse your effect.


3) Speaking of the Future. One of the version of Pandora's Box I got the most out of was that the box contained knowledge of your future, and when exposed to it, you lose hope for the future, and the vision becomes reality.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


As for the other elements, I tend to try and think like rock-paper-scissors and keep to threes (Fire > Earth > Water > Fire) with a few skills that counter that trend. As another set, I often tend to use: (Bane <> Holy <> Thunder <> Bane). Yup, all three are weak to each other, and the users tend to wield one of the other elements as well.
 
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Michael Caiola

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@Michael Caiola Have younplayed Chroma Squad? Available on Steam for a couple bucks. It's Power Rangers meets pop references, meets Final Fantasy Tactics. Lol. It's a hilarious good time.


Are you my soul mate?


@richter_h Check out these comments. I refined my elements.


http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/69376-too-many-elements-too-many-heroes/&do=findComment&comment=661380


http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/69376-too-many-elements-too-many-heroes/&do=findComment&comment=661389


@Silenity I agree about Stone. I can easily work it into Earth. I went back and forth on poison, but ultimately decided to keep it. One of my characters is basically a scorpion so poison is kind of his thing. I made it a damage type instead a traditional element. Some types of creatures can be poisoned, others can't. I think it can work. The idea with lust was to have it only work on others of the same species. The hero using it has a primarily defensive fighting style. Lust abilities would bring down enemies defenses and make them weaker in other ways, allowing her to use her weak attacks effectively. I still like as a concept, but I don't think I can make it fit in the system I already have. I'm still going to have those abilities, but they won't have any lust element of damage type.


However, Time is a perfect element for this game. There's another comment floating around here describing my Time element in more detail.

I actually think you have a far more fundamental issue with the way you are constructing both your lore and your game: you lack limitations.


I normally don't dismiss criticism outright, but you're wrong here. I do have limitations. I may not have described them in detail here, but I have them.

@Basileus Proper time is Omni to most other elements. It doesn't get effected by 3rd dimension elements, but does effect all 3rd dimension elements... Time is a 4th dimension property, meaning you have to break (or warp) it to manipulate it since we live in a 3rd dimension reality. Usually the person doesn't really understand the powers physics, but uses it anyways... In an RPG, it really would have no projectable use in battle that would be worthy of the time unless you are adjusting regen/degen rates, or even the rec rate (how long any status effect can last)... As a general rule, time "guardian" are frowned from the following: 1) Freezing time, or a time stop. It's considered the greatest crime because you can manipulate almost anything. 2) Changing, or interacting, with the past. There is a cool theory that you can't actually change the past. If you did, something would happen that would reverse your effect.


I've studied time and time travel extensively. Time isn't necessarily a literal 4th dimension like the 3 known spacial dimensions. Also, with gods an zodiac signs, it's a bit mystical and less physical. There's wiggle room when magic is involved.


My Time element refers to localized time. So a time mage can't just stop time or travel to the past or future. He can freeze an enemy in time, locally. He can rapidly age someone. He can revert someone to a previous state.


I've got it under control.
 

Tigersong

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Hi, Michael. I don't have much to say, but thank you for starting me thinking about elements. :) I did come up with one rather interesting application for fire:
Suppose an enemy inflicts a "bleeding" state on one of Our Heroes. You could have one of the fire-casters use a low-powered spell (so it does minimal damage) that "cauterizes" and removes the bleeding state. Or it could prevent the wound from becoming infected (poison state).
 

Failivrin

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Final Fantasy Tactics had a zodiac system, but I don't think the writers thought it through as carefully as you have =)
Personally I'd love to see unique elements, like Poison and Time. (Poison, Ghost and Dark are my favorite Pokemon. Represent!)
In the game I'm making, I have 12 heroes but only 3 elements. I don't think 12 elements would be too many--just too many for me. I'd like to say the only critical thing is that you make sure the player has opportunities to learn and practice the element system. I'd like to say that, but honestly it's not true. More than half the people playing Pokemon don't have the faintest idea how elements work, but it doesn't detract much from the gameplay experience. You're planning carefully and exploring ideas in detail, so I say go ahead and go big!
 

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