Truly limited mana

[Wavelength]

Since I can't link...

Go to YouTube.  Look up "Ross's Game Dungeon Revenant".

That is my answer about limited mana.   I think it's an answer you can agree with.

EDIT:  Or, if you're too lazy to look it up and wait for the answer...

Limited Mana basically leads players to never using your magic even more than they already do without the limit.  Players already ignore magic use except in boss fights when they need to nuke to win fast.  Limit mana, and they'll only use it on truly difficult bosses...  Or just ditch mages entirely.

I'd personally ignore anything magic related with such a limit.

Think of limited magic in this way.  What if you could only swing your sword X amount of times before you had to wait for a checkpoint or you used a potion?  Imagine limiting the "Attack" command to as limited as you want your magic system.  That's what you're getting.

What you're saying makes some sense within a very classic JRPG setup, but there are a lot of different complementary mechanics that would make such a system immune to these flaws.  A dungeon crawler setup with relatively short dungeons and relatively difficult encounters would make mages more important even with extremely limited mana.  A combat system where mages have a few "free" spells (akin to attacks), or a fairly useful Attack command, and warriors need to use MP for their skills, would avert this problem because each character would be equally relevant.

I do think this design is harder to get right than the standard modern JRPG setup with cheap restoration and "filler" battles because if you mess up in your mechanics design or balance you don't turn your game into a mediocre one - you turn it into an aggravating and unplayable one.  And like I mentioned before, I do have concerns about mages' irrelevance as well as heal spells crowding out everything else in such a system.  But for sure it can be done and it can be done well.

Actually, in one of my games (How Badly), MP is extremely limited and hard to refill (you only restore it at the end of an in-game day, or by using expensive food items in a game where you succeed or fail based on money), but Adrenaline Points/AP (which resets after each battle and recharges quickly during a battle) can also be used to cast the same spells that MP can.  The point of having this additional, limited pool of MP is as a "trump card" for when you need to cast several spells in a row without waiting against a very hard enemy, or for certain skills that have a greater effect based on your current AP (after paying the spell cost).  And the point of AP being that the player can enjoy themselves and frequently make strategic decisions about which spells to use without worrying about conserving long-term resources.

 

[Milennin]

So, basically you'd save all your MP for the big boss fight if you can't be bothered continuously walking back to restore points. That sounds like fun.

 

[Wavelength]

So, basically you'd save all your MP for the big boss fight if you can't be bothered continuously walking back to restore points. That sounds like fun.

Again only true in a classic JRPG setup, I think.  Maybe there is no "big boss fight" or maybe the standard enemies present a real enough challenge that you need to use MP.  Not that AC has clarified, but I'd tend to think this is how it is based on the use of a Limited MP system.

 

[Tai_MT]

@Milennin

That's pretty much what I'd be doing.  What good would having 200 MP be if I run out of it before I ever reach the boss and then my mage is worthless for that encounter?  I'd be constantly power-leveling to raise the MP cap to avoid the problem of "not enough MP" as well as constantly running back to checkpoints.  It's not something I envision players being fond of doing.  I know it's something I'd be more than a little annoyed with.  In fact, in some of the older Final Fantasy games that worked that way (Final Fantasy 1, for the best example), it led me to simply mashing attack with Mages, ignoring the paltry amount of damage they did, rendering half my team worthless in battle, just so I could save the important and limited spells for the boss fights at the end of the lengthy dungeons.  It really wasn't an experience I enjoyed.

@Wavelength

My own system uses a somewhat similar premise.  Limited mana that can only be restored via item or via staying at the town's Inn.  The thing is, I've mitigated the problem by providing abilities that are cast "for free" if you run out of mana.  I want players to use their mana, as well, so I've made spells fairly cheap despite small gains in overall mana capacity.  You may only have 25 mana to start with, but your basic spells would only cost 2 mana to cast.  This results in 12 spell casts to start with, with options to increase maximum casts as you progress through the game and pick up more mana reserves.  I also wanted players to spend the money they obtained, so I made most mana restorative items fairly cheap to pick up and keep on hand.  Initial fights in the game could buy a healing potion after 1 fight... or 5 fights, depending on how they used the loot they obtained from the fight.  A mana potion could be picked up after 2 fights... or 10 fights.  Again, depending on how you used the loot.  Likewise, if you ever ran into a really rough spot where your mana reserves completely went dry, I equipped you with a magic spell that requires 0 mana to cast and uses a simplified formula for damage (Magic Attack - Magic Defense = Damage).  It does nothing special except damage when you're out of casts.  Having the spell around also means you don't need to cast the 2 MP spells every time on every enemy.  Sometimes a quick cast of the 0 cost spell is all you need.  This keeps your mage from being worthless in any battle.

But, just outright limiting how much mana you ever obtain and only restoring it at checkpoints or with super expensive items...  Well, that's kind of a recipe for disaster and makes me, as a player, not want to cast magic.  And, if I've got mages that I don't want to cast magic with, I'm not going to want them in my party because of how useless I'd perceive them to be.

 

[AwesomeCool]

Again only true in a classic JRPG setup, I think.  Maybe there is no "big boss fight" or maybe the standard enemies present a real enough challenge that you need to use MP.  Not that AC has clarified, but I'd tend to think this is how it is based on the use of a Limited MP system.

I was hoping to make enemies real threats instead of just road blocks (to make people spend mana of course)

@Milennin

That's pretty much what I'd be doing.  What good would having 200 MP be if I run out of it before I ever reach the boss and then my mage is worthless for that encounter?  I'd be constantly power-leveling to raise the MP cap to avoid the problem of "not enough MP" as well as constantly running back to checkpoints.  It's not something I envision players being fond of doing.  I know it's something I'd be more than a little annoyed with.  In fact, in some of the older Final Fantasy games that worked that way (Final Fantasy 1, for the best example), it led me to simply mashing attack with Mages, ignoring the paltry amount of damage they did, rendering half my team worthless in battle, just so I could save the important and limited spells for the boss fights at the end of the lengthy dungeons.  It really wasn't an experience I enjoyed.

@Wavelength

My own system uses a somewhat similar premise.  Limited mana that can only be restored via item or via staying at the town's Inn.  The thing is, I've mitigated the problem by providing abilities that are cast "for free" if you run out of mana.  I want players to use their mana, as well, so I've made spells fairly cheap despite small gains in overall mana capacity.  You may only have 25 mana to start with, but your basic spells would only cost 2 mana to cast.  This results in 12 spell casts to start with, with options to increase maximum casts as you progress through the game and pick up more mana reserves.  I also wanted players to spend the money they obtained, so I made most mana restorative items fairly cheap to pick up and keep on hand.  Initial fights in the game could buy a healing potion after 1 fight... or 5 fights, depending on how they used the loot they obtained from the fight.  A mana potion could be picked up after 2 fights... or 10 fights.  Again, depending on how you used the loot.  Likewise, if you ever ran into a really rough spot where your mana reserves completely went dry, I equipped you with a magic spell that requires 0 mana to cast and uses a simplified formula for damage (Magic Attack - Magic Defense = Damage).  It does nothing special except damage when you're out of casts.  Having the spell around also means you don't need to cast the 2 MP spells every time on every enemy.  Sometimes a quick cast of the 0 cost spell is all you need.  This keeps your mage from being worthless in any battle.

But, just outright limiting how much mana you ever obtain and only restoring it at checkpoints or with super expensive items...  Well, that's kind of a recipe for disaster and makes me, as a player, not want to cast magic.  And, if I've got mages that I don't want to cast magic with, I'm not going to want them in my party because of how useless I'd perceive them to be.

You system is very similar to mine, except mana potions are non-existent/very limited.

 

[Milennin]

I was hoping to make enemies real threats instead of just road blocks (to make people spend mana of course)

So, your game is about running back and forth to restore points. Thanks for letting me know, so I know to avoid playing it.

 

[AwesomeCool]

So, your game is about running back and forth to restore points. Thanks for letting me know, so I know to avoid playing it.

Way to generalize and be insulting at the same time.  If you don't agree with the idea or want to play the game I am making, that's ok.  But please keep it to yourself (unless you have something constructive to say). 

Please and Thank You.

 

[bgillisp]

And *that* is why I said earlier, no matter what system you come up with, someone will not like it.

 

[Andar]

Milennin, AwesomeCool, both of you please tone down.


That comment about running back and forth could have been phrased better, but in its own way it is a form of constructive criticism: The game developer also has to know or get feedback about how players will use game mechanisms differently from their intended use and how some player will interpret those mechanisms.


If the enemies are difficult, then some players will react to that by saving after every one - even if that means doing a lot of walking.


And if the developer hadn't thought about that, then it is important feedback to allow him or her to decide how to react to that player tactic.


But as said, it could have been told in a nicer way.

 

[Tai_MT]

@AwesomeCool

Yeah, not to be a jerk or anything, but I think I'd avoid your game as well.  Or at least, any of the classes that used magic exclusively as their means to attack.  I'd find them fairly worthless in pretty much every combat situation save boss fights due to the limited amount of mana and practically zero restore points.  With limited Mana Potions to restore Mana (and from what I gather, no way to replenish them except if the player finds more somehow in a chest or something), I'd be wary about using them as well.  If I don't know where the next potion is going to come, I'm less willing to spend the ones I have, in case there's an emergency.  This is the same problem items like "Elixir" have in games like Final Fantasy 6.  They're such a rare and powerful item in the context of the game, that nobody ever ends up using them.  There is never a combat situation so hopeless that the only way it can be one is by use of one of these items...  So they simply take up space in the inventory.  Likewise, if we can only restore mana at certain checkpoints or at towns (I assume the distance between these points is far enough to make a difference... because if they're not, then there's no reason for the limited mana to begin with as restore points being too close together essentially turns your mechanic of limited mana into nearly unlimited mana), then we'd have the problem of people who already limit mana usage (from years of training via every other RPG in the world and how magic works in them) simply limiting their usage of it even more.

I'd prolly just grab the three hardest hitters in your game, grab a White Mage/Healer if you got one as backup healing (or entire party healing, depending on how you've designed the game) and ignore mages altogether.  I just can't see enjoying a portion of a game that seems like it's a "hardmode mod" instead of a feature.  Not that hard games are bad...  It just seems like unnecessary handicapping with no real plan in mind for why you're limiting mana and what you actually hope to accomplish by doing so.

 

[bgillisp]

I think maybe it would help if we knew what kind of game it is. A game like the old Wizardry's would have failed if MP was plentiful, as it would have destroyed the challenge. Same with the old D and D Gold Box games, as most of the challenge was centered around conserving your resources. Realms of Arkania 1 - 3 (Blade of Destiny, Star Trail, Shadows over Riva) also needed the rare MP to keep up the challenge, and I don't recall *any* MP restoring potions in those games (though its been 15 years since I last played them, so maybe one does exist).

However, all those games handled this by giving you a rest option. If rest works, you restore your mana. However, when resting you might be attacked, so it was a trade off. Developers made some zones very unsafe to rest in (middle of the hallway for example), and some rooms safe (forgotten storage room), so it was up to the player to find those, or retreat if none could be found.

I think limited MP like Awesomecool suggests can work, if it has at least one of these two options implemented with it:

1) An option to retreat from the dungeon without redoing all the battles while retreating (they can respawn if you come back. Persona 3 and 4 respawned the enemies on you). Maybe give the mages one skill that lets them teleport the party out of the dungeon, or back to the last save point? You can make it still cost MP, so the player needs to know to hold that much MP to cast teleport if needed, but they then will feel they can use the rest of the MP up to the cost of the spell freely, as they will know that if they are down to the last little but of MP, maybe it is time to retreat and do it again? 

Edit: You could also do option 1 with an item, like Persona Q does (and other dungeon crawlers). Low on MP, toss one of the items and get out,

2)  An option to rest, but with the risk of detection/another fight. That would require a script to implement well I'm sure, but it can be done.

 

[Andar]

Here is another alternative that might be workable:

Make Mana Potions into menu only items. That way there can be a lot, but the player cannot spam them during battle (simply say that they, as most medizines, need a few minutes until they have effect). Mana items usable during battles would still be rare, making battles easier to balance.

 

[AwesomeCool]

And *that* is why I said earlier, no matter what system you come up with, someone will not like it.

True dat.

Milennin, AwesomeCool, both of you please tone down.

That comment about running back and forth could have been phrased better, but in its own way it is a form of constructive criticism: The game developer also has to know or get feedback about how players will use game mechanisms differently from their intended use and how some player will interpret those mechanisms.

If the enemies are difficult, then some players will react to that by saving after every one - even if that means doing a lot of walking.

And if the developer hadn't thought about that, then it is important feedback to allow him or her to decide how to react to that player tactic.

But as said, it could have been told in a nicer way.

The problem I have is that the point was brought up earlier and i already addressed how I was handling it.  He basically ignored earlier posts I made or didn't read them all the way (about how every character has other skills that don't use mana and I am trying to figure out how to deal with running back to check points), then started making generalizations and hate filled posts ( a sarcastic "Sounds Like fun." or a sarcastic is not constructive at all).

(I am done talking about this though, as I should cool down first)

@AwesomeCool

Yeah, not to be a jerk or anything, but I think I'd avoid your game as well.  Or at least, any of the classes that used magic exclusively as their means to attack.  I'd find them fairly worthless in pretty much every combat situation save boss fights due to the limited amount of mana and practically zero restore points.  With limited Mana Potions to restore Mana (and from what I gather, no way to replenish them except if the player finds more somehow in a chest or something), I'd be wary about using them as well.  If I don't know where the next potion is going to come, I'm less willing to spend the ones I have, in case there's an emergency.  This is the same problem items like "Elixir" have in games like Final Fantasy 6.  They're such a rare and powerful item in the context of the game, that nobody ever ends up using them.  There is never a combat situation so hopeless that the only way it can be one is by use of one of these items...  So they simply take up space in the inventory.  Likewise, if we can only restore mana at certain checkpoints or at towns (I assume the distance between these points is far enough to make a difference... because if they're not, then there's no reason for the limited mana to begin with as restore points being too close together essentially turns your mechanic of limited mana into nearly unlimited mana), then we'd have the problem of people who already limit mana usage (from years of training via every other RPG in the world and how magic works in them) simply limiting their usage of it even more.

I'd prolly just grab the three hardest hitters in your game, grab a White Mage/Healer if you got one as backup healing (or entire party healing, depending on how you've designed the game) and ignore mages altogether.  I just can't see enjoying a portion of a game that seems like it's a "hardmode mod" instead of a feature.  Not that hard games are bad...  It just seems like unnecessary handicapping with no real plan in mind for why you're limiting mana and what you actually hope to accomplish by doing so.

Checkpoints could be before all bosses, would that help the situation in your opinion?  (along with everyone having tp skills too)

I was planning on doing this for story reasons and hoping to make resource management an actual thing to think about (instead of just using a mana pot when low being the only thought required).

I think maybe it would help if we knew what kind of game it is. A game like the old Wizardry's would have failed if MP was plentiful, as it would have destroyed the challenge. Same with the old D and D Gold Box games, as most of the challenge was centered around conserving your resources. Realms of Arkania 1 - 3 (Blade of Destiny, Star Trail, Shadows over Riva) also needed the rare MP to keep up the challenge, and I don't recall *any* MP restoring potions in those games (though its been 15 years since I last played them, so maybe one does exist).

However, all those games handled this by giving you a rest option. If rest works, you restore your mana. However, when resting you might be attacked, so it was a trade off. Developers made some zones very unsafe to rest in (middle of the hallway for example), and some rooms safe (forgotten storage room), so it was up to the player to find those, or retreat if none could be found.

I think limited MP like Awesomecool suggests can work, if it has at least one of these two options implemented with it:

1) An option to retreat from the dungeon without redoing all the battles while retreating (they can respawn if you come back. Persona 3 and 4 respawned the enemies on you). Maybe give the mages one skill that lets them teleport the party out of the dungeon, or back to the last save point? You can make it still cost MP, so the player needs to know to hold that much MP to cast teleport if needed, but they then will feel they can use the rest of the MP up to the cost of the spell freely, as they will know that if they are down to the last little but of MP, maybe it is time to retreat and do it again? 

Edit: You could also do option 1 with an item, like Persona Q does (and other dungeon crawlers). Low on MP, toss one of the items and get out,

2)  An option to rest, but with the risk of detection/another fight. That would require a script to implement well I'm sure, but it can be done.

I love these two ideas

Will see if I can make these two ideas work.

 

[Kes]

On idea one (which I use, and I call the skill Egress - nothing original there, then!) there is one piece of advice I'd give about how it might work.  This may be 100% obvious to you, but just in case it's not, here goes.

I never egress the party completely outside the dungeon; I always egress them to one tile before the entrance/exit.  That is so that they still use the transfer event which will be setting the egress variable back to zero, maybe tinting the screen, changing the battle theme, maybe respawning the enemies, all those things which you would want to be re-set for when/if they return, and which you don't want to be carried over to outside the dungeon.  If you egress them to a point outside, you will have to remember to include all those things and it is horribly easy to forget something..

 

[Tai_MT]

@AwesomeCool

Having your checkpoints before bosses would largely depend on how large dungeons are or how many encounters players run into before getting there.  You still have the issue of players just ignoring magic entirely because they don't know where the next checkpoint is.  They don't know when it's coming up.  The problem you're really running into on this has to do with player uncertainty.  Players do a lot of unanticipated things when they're uncertain about something.  If they're uncertain how your crafting works they might ignore it altogether.  If they're not sure how often they'll win your luck based minigame, they may ignore it entirely.  If they're not certain when they'd get their next Mana Refuel, they might not use any of it until they hit the checkpoint location and then farm XP and levels at the refill spot while ignoring every battle up to that point (which could be a waste of time or resources... and players always have the option to Escape battles unless you disable it...  Never forget that!  Especially in a game you are trying to make about "resource management!").

Honestly, from what I've read about your "no mana" system, the best solution is likely to just be giving characters a few "zero mana cost" skills they can use if they run out, or as a means to somewhat replenish their supplies of mana.  Otherwise, I think a lot of players will end up ignoring your magic entirely except for boss fights...  Which, in reality, kind of negates the entire point of making mana a "resource to manage" since it's a no brainer to any player how to manage it...  That is, never use it because you don't need to, except at a boss.  And maybe, not even then.

 

[Lowell]

I think maybe it would help if we knew what kind of game it is. A game like the old Wizardry's would have failed if MP was plentiful, as it would have destroyed the challenge. Same with the old D and D Gold Box games, as most of the challenge was centered around conserving your resources. Realms of Arkania 1 - 3 (Blade of Destiny, Star Trail, Shadows over Riva) also needed the rare MP to keep up the challenge, and I don't recall *any* MP restoring potions in those games (though its been 15 years since I last played them, so maybe one does exist).

What made the WIzardy type titles work was that mages could still perform with it's design. In Generation XTH: Code Hazard (and probably the remake Tokyo Abyss on Vita) primarily had mages in the back row using ranged weapons, which could be modified to do extra damage to certain types of enemies, and weren't reliant on a particular stat for damage. Demon Gaze, another Wizardy Clone as well as Generation XTH had a single no MP skill that damaged all enemies but was fairly weak and both had MP Regen passives that were acquired later on when they reached a certain level. Etrian Odyssey started off as one as well, but like I said before later games gave classes MP recovery options as passives which were tailored to take advantage of each classes abilities.

 

[trouble time]

What made the WIzardy type titles work was that mages could still perform with it's design. In Generation XTH: Code Hazard (and probably the remake Tokyo Abyss on Vita) primarily had mages in the back row using ranged weapons, which could be modified to do extra damage to certain types of enemies, and weren't reliant on a particular stat for damage. Demon Gaze, another Wizardy Clone as well as Generation XTH had a single no MP skill that damaged all enemies but was fairly weak and both had MP Regen passives that were acquired later on when they reached a certain level. Etrian Odyssey started off as one as well, but like I said before later games gave classes MP recovery options as passives which were tailored to take advantage of each classes abilities.

I've played Demon Gaze a lot and a few misconceptions 1. Wizard bolt, the no MP skill, scales with level, the higher your own level the more targets and damage, late in the game, it does fairly okay damage, but so far, with my Wizard it doesn't hit all enemies, only two rows. 2. Only healers gain an MP regen passive, but you can switch mana with allies, also the way the regen passive works is that it scales based on your Mysticism stat and not in the way you might think, it just works more frequently based on how high your mysticism is, and you get two of them, one only works outside battle and you get it early. The other works in battle but I think it's the last skill Healer gets, I don't know my brother has my Vita at the moment

The last thing to consider about Demon Gaze is that physical attackers are much stronger, even the wizard is best as a support class with their buffs and nerfs while healer is obvious as a support class. You're physical attackers outdamage mages by a gigantic amount to the point it's almost pointless to use your magic until you've buffed your party enough and then you're just back up damage. In regular battles Mages tend to just use wizard bolt or quick casting quad bolt when I want to get a big enemy down quick...but they have semi-permanent (as in they last until you return to the Inn) buffs which makes them a huge asset to the party even if they do nothing at all. They can also dispell enemy buffs, so...

Well suggesting that you might wanna think about giving the mages some form of semi permanent support ability since even if you're not using MP there's a good reason to have a magic user in the party. I mean in Demon Gaze I rarely use magic outside of boss fights even with the MP recovery ability of my healer, because I'd much rather not wait for the Healer to regen (it only regens when you move) since my Wizard is alredy pulling her weight just by making the party a little tougher and a little more damamging (and If I recall correctly, making it so the enemy can't dispell MY buffs).

 

[Lowell]

When I said both, I was referring to both games, sorry to not clarify, and you're right about the skills in Demon Gaze, the support skills are pretty much required near end game. Getting your Mys higher for MP Regen nearly every turn is the recommended focus since you can't really go wrong with any build (stats cap at 20 + base)

On a side note, all non magic skills had no MP cost, but rather required a state to be cast (mainly the melee classes). I found my wizard burning out of MP fairly quickly and having my Healer swap MP with her due to some enemies having resistances that crazy.

As far as Generation XTH's variant, I believe it was a Class skill that regenerated one (of 9) mp per level for lower ranked skills up to around 8? I have to replay the game to find out.

You'll definitely want to have some kind of recovery passive for Mages, even if it's only one or 2 MP per turn, or +1 MP per physical attack.

 

[trouble time]

When I said both, I was referring to both games, sorry to not clarify, and you're right about the skills in Demon Gaze, the support skills are pretty much required near end game. Getting your Mys higher for MP Regen nearly every turn is the recommended focus since you can't really go wrong with any build (stats cap at 20 + base)

On a side note, all non magic skills had no MP cost, but rather required a state to be cast (mainly the melee classes). I found my wizard burning out of MP fairly quickly and having my Healer swap MP with her due to some enemies having resistances that crazy.

As far as Generation XTH's variant, I believe it was a Class skill that regenerated one (of 9) mp per level for lower ranked skills up to around 8? I have to replay the game to find out.

You'll definitely want to have some kind of recovery passive for Mages, even if it's only one or 2 MP per turn, or +1 MP per physical attack.

The concentration EX artifact is great for your gazer and get enough so they'd stay in the concentration state all game, and also for regular battles, you can't go wrong with slash(no state required hits a whole line of enemies and has 3 versions going up to 3 lines of enemies, meaning you can have 3 meele classes with slash)....and I'm derailing...sorry I really liked Demon Gaze myself.

Though back on topic, I think a recovery passive of sorts would be a good idea, maybe it could happen slowly outside of battle, the exact rate would be hard to find. It'd be best making it just enough that you still feel like you have to manage your mana, but that it also let you feel free enough to use skills sometimes but not all the time.

 

[bgillisp]

Though back on topic, I think a recovery passive of sorts would be a good idea, maybe it could happen slowly outside of battle, the exact rate would be hard to find. It'd be best making it just enough that you still feel like you have to manage your mana, but that it also let you feel free enough to use skills sometimes but not all the time.

I should mention...in my game I set it up so that everyone (player and enemy alike) regenerate 1 MP per round of combat. If you did something like that it would give you a way to still (very slowly) regain mana if you run out and not make you feel like you can't cast. In fact, I'm noticing I cast more in my game just so that 1 MP regeneration doesn't get wasted on someone with full MP already!

Edit: I should clarify, I had to use a script to pull that off. But, all it does take is a quick edit to the regen command at the end of each combat round to do this.