Unbeatable battles, yay or nay?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Canini, Aug 19, 2016.

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What is your opinion of unbeatable battles?

  1. I think they are exciting

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  2. I do not like them

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  1. Ronove

    Ronove ♫꒰・‿・๑꒱ Veteran

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    If it's unbeatable, have it end soon after it starts. If people don't know better they will waste their items trying to win and that's the cheap part I don't like about unbeatable battles (though I mean I think it was FFV? One of the battles was unbeatable and I knew it but I decided anyway to put up a fight because the game let me but that doesn't work all the time). I had one in one of my games and first thing he does is wipe you out but that was the point. Since you were supposed to be made to believe hey this is my first boss in an otherwise generic rpg outing! Awesome! And then bam dead player and then the story shifts.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2016
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  2. Valryia

    Valryia Veteran Veteran

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    Tropes are tools. It depends on how you use them. There are two things very important to use this particular tool well: Minimum gain and absolute defeat.


    As i minimum gain example, let's take Beatrix in FFIX. Why? Because you were able to steal something (good) from her, making the battle not an "time waste" for an practical player.


    And for absolute defeat, we take Llyod from Legend of Dragoon: It is made absolutely clear that you can't win the fight. He has a special dodge animation and after a few turns he oneshots you. This is important so players don't waste resources like healing potions.
     
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  3. sb~

    sb~ Villager Member

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    Sure, as others said a clearly unbeatable nemesis can spice things up a bit and add drama. As long as you don't overdo it and add a few unbeatables with no clear indication that they're unbeatables.
     
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  4. TheZage

    TheZage Villager Member

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     It definitely is an overused trope. But who says all villains are the same, is there a reason to keep them alive? Maybe there is an underlying motivation that has not been revealed yet? In my eyes, the trope is a perfectly viable storytelling tool, as long as it is done naturally and doesn't seem like a cheap plot point (which it often is).
     
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  5. Canini

    Canini Veteran Veteran

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    Beatrix is a good example since she actually still has her kill-all attack when you momentarily play as her later. It costs all her MP (presumably why she only uses it as a last resort when you fight her) but is unfortunately glitched and do nothing.


    And eurgh, I hate wasting elixirs and other items on battles it weren´t clear that you couldn´t win.  D:<
     
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  6. Leon Kennedy

    Leon Kennedy Restaff Novice Restaff

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    Suppose it could be called cliche, but at this point there really isn't many things that haven't been done 25x over in games. I like it, it's a bit different though done many times before.
     
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  7. RHachicho

    RHachicho Veteran Veteran

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    As long as it isn't overused it's ok. I remember the first time I met this was Balio and Sunder in Breath of Fire 3. And oh god I wasted ALL of my healing items trying to beat them. It was a frustrating experience .. but you know what it REALLY made me hate those guys. When I got to take em out later .. It was really satisfying. I know people are like resent wasting consumables and effort and time. But sometimes I feel like this very frustration can be played to the story and enhance it.


    But like everyone else says. Don't drag it out. Don't give the boss normal attacks and 50 billion squillion hps's. Make em mess up the party .. fast.


    I also like putting in an instant kill attack after a certain amount of time .. for all the cheaters. I got no beef if people wanna cheat they cheat. Sometimes u just don't like the combat system and want to play thru the story. But these battles can turn into unbelievable grinds in that case. So give the enemy a kill all after x turns thing.
     
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2016
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  8. TheGamedawg

    TheGamedawg Veteran Veteran

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    I don't mind unwinnable battles.  I think it's a good way to emphasize sheer power in the face of something much more dangerous than you.  I feel this kind of trope only works though if it comes full circle and you're able to beat that threat later in the game.
     
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  9. Plueschkatze

    Plueschkatze Veteran Veteran

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    I remember many unwinnable battles from more classic titles, and I didn't mind as long as you at some point released pretty clearly that it's unwinnable.


    I like this "the hero still needs to grow"-type of battles, where you're losing to an antagonist or even an mentor or something early on in the story.


    But I disliked that the "final battle" of Final Fantasy Crisis Core just felt like I could win if it weren't ment to be lost. Like... I still had many many potions and did win permanently until they set a cut and played the cutscene with Zack dying.
     
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