Unlocking Levels

[Wavelength]

I hate the idea of progress-based level caps (and even level caps in general) in a single-player RPG. If a player enjoys leveling, allow them to level. Why? Because they enjoy it.

There are valid concerns to be had with, for example, getting lost in a dungeon and unintentionally making the next segment of the game too easy (because you unwisely forced the player into random encounters while they were lost - a bad design decision in itself). This can be corrected by using relatively steep graduations in both the amount of EXP required for each level, and the amount of EXP you get from monsters in different areas (as a super-extreme example, if I'm getting 100 EXP from each monster in the current dungeon, and 2500 EXP from each monster in the next dungeon, then even a lot of encounters will only raise my level slightly above where it's supposed to be, and therefore you'd be able to easily control my level as a designer).

@Basileus beautifully explained a lot of the faults with level caps, and the reasons that they don't add anything to your game anyhow. Rather than parrot most of those same concerns, I just want to recommend reading that long-but-worthwhile post above.

Note that in a massively multiplayer RPG, level caps (or at least severely diminishing returns from levels) can be necessary to ensure game balance and therefore a satisfying experience for everyone where every player can feel like they can pursue goals that are meaningful to them - without that effort eternally being made inconsequential by another player who has put in ten-thousand hours to their one-thousand.

 

[bhindi1224]

I've always wondered why not base level on something other than experience points? So that you don't need to beat x number of pigs for Cartman to raise his level. Completing quests, defeating key enemies, treasure finding (heart containers), etc. seem like good ways to keep the player's level in a manageable range. You could always allow for being a bit over-leveled if you want, but keeping the maximum attainable power within the creator's hands is important. I didn't experience negative feelings from grinding heart containers in Zelda in the same way that killing mobs over and over to gain xp does.

 

[Basileus]

@SOC

I dislike game-breakers too, but it's important to remember that your idea of "overleveled" is subjective. Unless the developers list their recommended level in-game, then your impression of how difficult a fight should be "as it was designed" may actually be very different from the developer's true intent. Even if a fight feels too easy for you it doesn't mean you overleveled - it could just be an easy boss. Or maybe the devs encouraged you to wander and gain levels by deliberately designing the map to make you want to venture off the main road and explore. I haven't played Suikoden but I have played the other 3 series and I'm not convinced that you can overlevel yourself purely by accident.

Final Fantasy is the game I think most people will feel overleveled in. The thing is...Final Fantasy games are very easy to begin with. There's a very good reason the games throw high-powered healing items in your face constantly and have convenient save points everywhere that you can also use to fully restore HP and MP. After around FFIV the games care more about the story than the arcade difficulty and do what they can to help the player not have to stop playing. This means that it's pretty hard to ever be underleveled, but the EXP curve still generally keeps players in line unless they really want to grind out a few levels before moving on. If a boss is too easy, then it is almost certainly the boss being easy and not you being too strong.

Dragon Quest on the other hand almost requires a certain amount of grinding. The key to the DQ system is resource management and the only way to get more resources (i.e. HP and MP) is to level up. Most bosses deal tons of damage and many players may feel tempted to grind until they can win - however, this is a bad habit I think many players pick up from Final Fantasy. In FF utility skills have little value so fights consist mostly of dealing lots of damage and then maybe healing for a round. In DQ the utility skills actually matter and most bosses can be defeated through the use of buffs, debuffs, and even status effects like poison/sleep/etc. so you don't actually require raw stats from levels to win most of the time. This is good because the sharp EXP curve means that grinding levels is tough. You might get 2-3 levels higher than intended by wandering around but this will hardly make a difference. To become overleveled enough that the minor stat gains allow you to casually defeat a boss would require hours of intentional grinding, possibly going out of your way to hunt Metal Slimes.

The Tales Series is similar in that levels only have a minor impact by themselves. Even the stat gains from 5-6 accidental levels won't make a boss easy. You might learn a new Arte that makes the boss fight easier, but if the boss was weak to it then you were likely supposed to have said Arte for that fight to begin with. Stats and levels actually don't mean nearly as much in a Tales game as a typical JRPG because of the Action Combat System making positioning and timing much more important than raw attack power. You beat a boss by staying out of the AoE of their spells and comboing your attacks to try and keep them staggered. The tiny amount of Defense you get from levels will never protect you from a boss and a little extra Attack won't suddenly make you deal tons of damage.

Dragon Quest is an excellent example of a high EXP curve requiring the player to move on to the next region to level efficiently, while Tales is definitely the kind of game that gives minor rewards from levels and gives much more impact to gear.

 

[LightDiviner]

@SOC

I dislike game-breakers too, but it's important to remember that your idea of "overleveled" is subjective. Unless the developers list their recommended level in-game, then your impression of how difficult a fight should be "as it was designed" may actually be very different from the developer's true intent. Even if a fight feels too easy for you it doesn't mean you overleveled - it could just be an easy boss. Or maybe the devs encouraged you to wander and gain levels by deliberately designing the map to make you want to venture off the main road and explore. I haven't played Suikoden but I have played the other 3 series and I'm not convinced that you can overlevel yourself purely by accident.

Final Fantasy is the game I think most people will feel overleveled in. The thing is...Final Fantasy games are very easy to begin with. There's a very good reason the games throw high-powered healing items in your face constantly and have convenient save points everywhere that you can also use to fully restore HP and MP. After around FFIV the games care more about the story than the arcade difficulty and do what they can to help the player not have to stop playing. This means that it's pretty hard to ever be underleveled, but the EXP curve still generally keeps players in line unless they really want to grind out a few levels before moving on. If a boss is too easy, then it is almost certainly the boss being easy and not you being too strong.

Dragon Quest on the other hand almost requires a certain amount of grinding. The key to the DQ system is resource management and the only way to get more resources (i.e. HP and MP) is to level up. Most bosses deal tons of damage and many players may feel tempted to grind until they can win - however, this is a bad habit I think many players pick up from Final Fantasy. In FF utility skills have little value so fights consist mostly of dealing lots of damage and then maybe healing for a round. In DQ the utility skills actually matter and most bosses can be defeated through the use of buffs, debuffs, and even status effects like poison/sleep/etc. so you don't actually require raw stats from levels to win most of the time. This is good because the sharp EXP curve means that grinding levels is tough. You might get 2-3 levels higher than intended by wandering around but this will hardly make a difference. To become overleveled enough that the minor stat gains allow you to casually defeat a boss would require hours of intentional grinding, possibly going out of your way to hunt Metal Slimes.

The Tales Series is similar in that levels only have a minor impact by themselves. Even the stat gains from 5-6 accidental levels won't make a boss easy. You might learn a new Arte that makes the boss fight easier, but if the boss was weak to it then you were likely supposed to have said Arte for that fight to begin with. Stats and levels actually don't mean nearly as much in a Tales game as a typical JRPG because of the Action Combat System making positioning and timing much more important than raw attack power. You beat a boss by staying out of the AoE of their spells and comboing your attacks to try and keep them staggered. The tiny amount of Defense you get from levels will never protect you from a boss and a little extra Attack won't suddenly make you deal tons of damage.

Dragon Quest is an excellent example of a high EXP curve requiring the player to move on to the next region to level efficiently, while Tales is definitely the kind of game that gives minor rewards from levels and gives much more impact to gear.

Story telling is my main point of interest. I've always enjoyed making up stories and telling them to people, and this is meant to be a way to do so. Heck, I have plans to just make 'games' that are a series of cutscenes. Basically a small skit. The majority is gonna be gameplay, but still. Storytelling is what I do best.

 

[Wavelength]

Story telling is my main point of interest. I've always enjoyed making up stories and telling them to people, and this is meant to be a way to do so. Heck, I have plans to just make 'games' that are a series of cutscenes. Basically a small skit. The majority is gonna be gameplay, but still. Storytelling is what I do best.

I'm about to verge off-topic, but indulge me because I think I have some useful advice for you. If your main passion and your biggest strength is storytelling, then design all of your gameplay in service to the story and the player's ability to fully experience the power of it. Use it to evoke the same emotions in the player that your characters are feeling. Use it to draw them into the world.

This may be a very different gameplay experience than the type of RPG gameplay you might have in mind right now. A combat-heavy RPG might live and die by its balance; your game will not. Don't try to design things like Level Cap systems that are not only going to waste your time as a designer but also could get in the way of the player's ability to fully experience your narrative (e.g. when they're bad at combat and now they can't even power-level to beat the combat and move on to see what happens next).

 

[LightDiviner]

I'm about to verge off-topic, but indulge me because I think I have some useful advice for you. If your main passion and your biggest strength is storytelling, then design all of your gameplay in service to the story and the player's ability to fully experience the power of it. Use it to evoke the same emotions in the player that your characters are feeling. Use it to draw them into the world.

This may be a very different gameplay experience than the type of RPG gameplay you might have in mind right now. A combat-heavy RPG might live and die by its balance; your game will not. Don't try to design things like Level Cap systems that are not only going to waste your time as a designer but also could get in the way of the player's ability to fully experience your narrative (e.g. when they're bad at combat and now they can't even power-level to beat the combat and move on to see what happens next).

OK. I'm mainly just trying to throw out ideas anyway.

 

[Wavelength]

I've always wondered why not base level on something other than experience points? So that you don't need to beat x number of pigs for Cartman to raise his level. Completing quests, defeating key enemies, treasure finding (heart containers), etc. seem like good ways to keep the player's level in a manageable range. You could always allow for being a bit over-leveled if you want, but keeping the maximum attainable power within the creator's hands is important. I didn't experience negative feelings from grinding heart containers in Zelda in the same way that killing mobs over and over to gain xp does.

I think the idea behind giving EXP for killing random monsters is that it makes the act of killing those random monsters more satisfying because there's a clear reward for doing so, besides the abstract chance of loot which might be junk anyhow. This doesn't necessarily mean that the game is forcing the player to "grind" these monsters - most well-designed games will ensure that the player has to do some fighting to get from Point A to Point B anyhow.

But I feel that having a "points" reward makes it feel more like time well spent, and less like a needless obstacle in the way. It doesn't have to be Experience Points - it could be something like Job Points, for example - but EXP is usually a good one because it's something that most players will always want. Who would say no to being a little stronger?

A lot of games, especially in the last decade, also give EXP (sometimes massive amounts, in games like World of Warcraft and Guild Wars 2) for completing quests, exploring new places, and/or finding treasure. This is great. There's almost no downside to doing this! But note that very few of these games remove the EXP gains from random mobs/encounters entirely. I think this is an intentional design choice on their part. I have actually played a few indie RPGs that award no EXP for random encounters, and the result, for me, is always a slightly empty feel to the combat experience.

 

[LightDiviner]

I think the idea behind giving EXP for killing random monsters is that it makes the act of killing those random monsters more satisfying because there's a clear reward for doing so, besides the abstract chance of loot which might be junk anyhow. This doesn't necessarily mean that the game is forcing the player to "grind" these monsters - most well-designed games will ensure that the player has to do some fighting to get from Point A to Point B anyhow.

But I feel that having a "points" reward makes it feel more like time well spent, and less like a needless obstacle in the way. It doesn't have to be Experience Points - it could be something like Job Points, for example - but EXP is usually a good one because it's something that most players will always want. Who would say no to being a little stronger?

A lot of games, especially in the last decade, also give EXP (sometimes massive amounts, in games like World of Warcraft and Guild Wars 2) for completing quests, exploring new places, and/or finding treasure. This is great. There's almost no downside to doing this! But note that very few of these games remove the EXP gains from random mobs/encounters entirely. I think this is an intentional design choice on their part. I have actually played a few indie RPGs that award no EXP for random encounters, and the result, for me, is always a slightly empty feel to the combat experience.

There's also the symbollic reason of defeating monsters, exploring, etc, is meant to physically make them stronger from all their time spent doing it.

 

[Tai_MT]

One thing about RPG's that I find interesting, the level up system. Getting stronger by doing battles. But, if you do too much, like grinding, or just getting unlucky with random encounters, your level can sometimes become too why, and parts of the game may become too easy. Which is where my idea comes in, unlocking new level caps. Here is an example.

At the start of a game, your level cap is 10. Pretty decent level for early game. After you defeat a certain boss, you get a message basically saying, "Level Cap Increased!" With it, you can level up to say, 20, giving you better stats, as well as new abilities you can get. That way, your never too powerful for what's ahead, making it so you can't just grind to win. You'll still have to think about how to win battles. If I had to compare it to anything, I'd say the Crystarium system from Final Fantasy XIII, just without branching paths and stuff.

I'm sorry if someone already covered what I'm about to say. I just saw your topic today and on my lunch hour, I didn't want to read through everyone's posts. If what I'm typing has already been covered a hundred times, just ignore me.

I am glad you brought up the Crystarium. Want to know what that system did to me, as a player? It told me that I should be grinding. To the maximum power level I was able to attain, in order to be as strong as possible for whatever challenges I was meant to have. I'd do the same in any game that limited what level I was meant to be at like that, and then "unlocked more" as I went along. I was also stockpiling the XP the game was rewarding me so that the next time I beat a boss... I could immediately gain 10+ levels again, to cut down on the later grind.

Essentially, the game wasn't telling me to "stop grinding" it was telling me, "Grind constantly! It's the only way you'll be good in combat!" Basically, it's enforcing grind on me, as a player, just by having the system exist as it is.

See, here's how any standard player, plays an RPG. If they feel the urge to gain more levels than the game would otherwise give them... They'll just do it. Why? Because they want to be able to get through the next several story instances without an issue... Or they want to feel powerful and don't want combat to be as much of a challenge (or any challenge at all). Most players, without prompting, will gain an extra 3-10 levels, just to make your combat easier, so they can enjoy the rest of your game. Or, to minimize frustration in combat. I, often, grind out levels on my own just to be able to play "easy mode" for a long swath of time before having to engage in it again. I'm not extreme in it, but 5 or 7 levels above basic enemies is about where I like to be. Having that edge in combat means less turns I have to spend in combat with your basic and boring enemies and your bosses who only have a single gimmick. However, even players who don't set out to grind are going to end up a few levels above or below what you're expecting depending on the content they found or decided to run. It's difficult to manage levels of players and "stat balance" because of it.

My advice on combat and levels and such has always just kind of been to "balance it for about a 5 level range of players... and if it's too high, don't worry about it... if it's too low, you need to do something as a dev to get players to at least train themselves up to par in order to beat current monsters or a boss". As such, I also advise devs not create a battle system that runs entirely on stats. A combat system relies heavily on the stats I've got when I encounter it is going to be a boring combat system. If you limit levels, this turns into a freakin' slog for the player. If you don't, it turns into "grind for higher levels to make content easier to bypass".

My suggestion is just to make combat interesting. Make it less about having high stats and good equipment and instead make it about making the right decisions on each turn. If you do that, then level of the player shouldn't matter all too much, because you'd be able to beat anything at any level with the right decisions being made during combat.

Hope that helps.

 

[LightDiviner]

I'm sorry if someone already covered what I'm about to say. I just saw your topic today and on my lunch hour, I didn't want to read through everyone's posts. If what I'm typing has already been covered a hundred times, just ignore me.

I am glad you brought up the Crystarium. Want to know what that system did to me, as a player? It told me that I should be grinding. To the maximum power level I was able to attain, in order to be as strong as possible for whatever challenges I was meant to have. I'd do the same in any game that limited what level I was meant to be at like that, and then "unlocked more" as I went along. I was also stockpiling the XP the game was rewarding me so that the next time I beat a boss... I could immediately gain 10+ levels again, to cut down on the later grind.

Essentially, the game wasn't telling me to "stop grinding" it was telling me, "Grind constantly! It's the only way you'll be good in combat!" Basically, it's enforcing grind on me, as a player, just by having the system exist as it is.

See, here's how any standard player, plays an RPG. If they feel the urge to gain more levels than the game would otherwise give them... They'll just do it. Why? Because they want to be able to get through the next several story instances without an issue... Or they want to feel powerful and don't want combat to be as much of a challenge (or any challenge at all). Most players, without prompting, will gain an extra 3-10 levels, just to make your combat easier, so they can enjoy the rest of your game. Or, to minimize frustration in combat. I, often, grind out levels on my own just to be able to play "easy mode" for a long swath of time before having to engage in it again. I'm not extreme in it, but 5 or 7 levels above basic enemies is about where I like to be. Having that edge in combat means less turns I have to spend in combat with your basic and boring enemies and your bosses who only have a single gimmick. However, even players who don't set out to grind are going to end up a few levels above or below what you're expecting depending on the content they found or decided to run. It's difficult to manage levels of players and "stat balance" because of it.

My advice on combat and levels and such has always just kind of been to "balance it for about a 5 level range of players... and if it's too high, don't worry about it... if it's too low, you need to do something as a dev to get players to at least train themselves up to par in order to beat current monsters or a boss". As such, I also advise devs not create a battle system that runs entirely on stats. A combat system relies heavily on the stats I've got when I encounter it is going to be a boring combat system. If you limit levels, this turns into a freakin' slog for the player. If you don't, it turns into "grind for higher levels to make content easier to bypass".

My suggestion is just to make combat interesting. Make it less about having high stats and good equipment and instead make it about making the right decisions on each turn. If you do that, then level of the player shouldn't matter all too much, because you'd be able to beat anything at any level with the right decisions being made during combat.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the advice.
I honestly felt 13 and 13-2 also relied more on using the right actions at the right time, switching up your role to make combat easier. Late game stuff, yeah, you had to have the right stats, but that's late game. Almost every RPG requires grinding in late to end game.

 

[sciencewarrior]

This here is gold:

If your main passion and your biggest strength is storytelling, then design all of your gameplay in service to the story and the player's ability to fully experience the power of it.

Choose what your game is about, build everything around it, including the mechanical rewards. Don't be afraid of giving your players lots of EXP for advancing the main plot or pursuing story-rich sidequests, if that's what you want them to focus on. There are times for subtlety, but this isn't one of them. Players will adjust their behavior to account for both rewards and punishment in pretty much the same way, but they will feel much better about your game if they feel they are being rewarded.