[Usability/UI design bug/oversight] "Game End" should be in Window_PartyCommand

Should the battle scene's "Fight"/"Escape" menu list "Game End" for aborting fights to title?

  • Yes, "Game End" is needed for accidentally entering wrong fights that have "Escape" disabled

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • No, I don't think this should be added / I prefer working around this with plugins only

    Votes: 9 90.0%
  • I don't understand what this is about

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    10

rpg_el

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
83
Reaction score
35
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
(IF YOU VOTE NO: could you please elaborate below?)

I have occasionally forgotten to e.g. equip something or otherwise ran into what I realized was the wrong fight in testing my own game, and therefore wanted to quit out of the battle. I think this is going to be a somewhat common occurrence for more advanced gamers in lengthier games pushing the envelope of what battles they try on, etc, while they wise up to realizing which battles are inherently unwinnable / the wrong choice before even doing much of fighting. Sure, "Escape" exists, but often either isn't an option in the tougher fights, or not what the player wants since it may fail/waste resources/... and they might have just saved, making backing out to title the preferred option.

I also realized that for this scenario when in a fullscreen game, the only way to back out is either ALT+F4 (which is horribly user hostile in that it risks just making the player quit for the day entirely) or F5 (which many players won't know about, and many game creators also disable in final releases due to it having no warning prompt at all and being prone to lead to surprise progress loss).

This feels wrong, it seems like Window_PartyCommand (the initial window that choice "Fight" and "Escape") should also list "Game End" like the ingame menu does, so that it is possible to back out to the title screen in an obvious way. That the menu doesn't have "Game End" right now honestly just feels like an oversight, so hopefully this can be addressed in a corescript patch since I don't think this is likely to cause compatibility issues.

This would be my suggested solution in a mockup:

buttonsuggestion.png

If you're an RPG Maker game creator, don't forget to vote on the poll if you agree or not to give the devs an idea of the overall opinion. Also, consider responding in this thread with your reasoning.

And here is the code to fix it, which anyone including Gotcha Gotcha Games/Kadokawa etc are free to take and to incorporate into games or upcoming fixes:

Code:
// THIS IS PUBLIC DOMAIN, AS FAR AS IT ISN'T COPIED FROM THE CORESCRIPT
// ANYWAY (WHICH BELONGS TO RPG MAKER/GOTCHA GOTCHA GAMES). FEEL FREE
// TO USE IN ANY WAY, AND HOPEFULLY THIS WILL BE FIXED IN THE CORE SOON.
(function() {
    const _orig_Window_PartyCommand_makeCommandList = (
        Window_PartyCommand.prototype.makeCommandList
    );
    Window_PartyCommand.prototype.makeCommandList = function() {
        let result = _orig_Window_PartyCommand_makeCommandList.apply(
            this, arguments
        );
        this.addCommand(TextManager.gameEnd, "gameEnd");
        return result;
    };

    Scene_Battle.prototype.closeGameEnd = function() {
        this._gameEndWindow.deselect();
        this._gameEndWindow.close();
        this._windowLayer.removeChild(this._gameEndWindow);
        this._gameEndWindow = undefined;
        this._partyCommandWindow.activate();
    };

    Scene_Battle.prototype.showGameEnd = function() {
        const rect = Scene_GameEnd.prototype.commandWindowRect.apply(
            this, []
        );
        this._gameEndWindow = new Window_GameEnd(rect);
        this._gameEndWindow.setHandler("toTitle", this.commandToTitle.bind(this));
        this._gameEndWindow.setHandler("cancel", this.closeGameEnd.bind(this));
        this._partyCommandWindow.deselect();
        this._gameEndWindow.activate();
        this.addWindow(this._gameEndWindow);
    };

    Scene_Battle.prototype.commandToTitle = function() {
        if (this._gameEndWindow !== undefined)
            this._gameEndWindow.close();
        this.fadeOutAll();
        SceneManager.goto(Scene_Title);
        Window_TitleCommand.initCommandPosition();
    };

    const _orig_Scene_Battle_createPartyCommandWindow = (
        Scene_Battle.prototype.createPartyCommandWindow
    );
    Scene_Battle.prototype.createPartyCommandWindow = function() {
        let result = _orig_Scene_Battle_createPartyCommandWindow.apply(
            this, arguments
        );
        let self = this;
        this._partyCommandWindow.setHandler(
            "gameEnd", this.showGameEnd.bind(this)
        );
        return result;
    };

})();
(Please also post here if there is any issue with the above code, so I can fix it)
 
Last edited:

rpg_el

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
83
Reaction score
35
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
Could those voting "No" explain more in-depth why they voted like that? Is it just that you find it too unimportant to be worked on, even with the code pretty much done already by me (which could be basically pasted into the corescript permanently with 15 minutes of work), or do you actually prefer that the player is trapped in the game if they find a battle unwinnable? I'm not sure why that would ever be preferable, which is why that vote makes me so curious.

Anyone elaborating on their "No" vote would really be very interesting to me.
 

Beregon

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Aug 25, 2020
Messages
64
Reaction score
34
First Language
Czech
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
Game End is too little, it should allow you to access Options too, so you can turn down the volume if you need it.
 

rpg_el

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
83
Reaction score
35
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
Edit: sorry, I misread.

For what it's worth, it is not really possible to access any full different scene due to the way the scene manager works, because the battle scene always resets/starts over when left. So unlike what I am proposing, actually switching to more complex scenes like the options screen isn't a trivial change. Not that I am opposed, but I would assume that'd be less likely to be worth the effort vs usefulness ratio to the devs.

The thing is also, this could still be expanded upon later once it is in. But if the main conclusion is just a "No", I assume it'll just stay how it is and players will just stay trapped in battles and it'll never be improved...
 
Last edited:

Beregon

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Aug 25, 2020
Messages
64
Reaction score
34
First Language
Czech
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
I haven't voted either way, but by default, you can just click the X at the corner of the game window.

I'm not opposed to it tbh.
 

rpg_el

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
83
Reaction score
35
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
That doesn't get you back to title, that quits the game. Therefore that is the recipe for a rage quit rather than having the player retry, so that's a really bad alternative. Also, in fullscreen it just doesn't work (as I elaborated in the initial post). Maybe showing the loading screen would be even better, but that runs into the complicated scene switch problem since backing out of that would reset the battle, so I'm not sure how doable that is...

Anyway, it is a little frustrating that apparently nobody who voted "No" spoke up about it, yet it seems to be pretty much everyone who jumped into this thread.

I wonder if people just don't realize "Game End" is the name of the menu in RPG Maker that goes back to the title, not just an additional way to instant quit...? I was never proposing to have just another way to rage quit out of it.
 
Last edited:

Riazey

Master of None
Veteran
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
137
Reaction score
155
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
I voted no just because I 10/10 would accidentally quit the game while grinding.
 

Beregon

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Aug 25, 2020
Messages
64
Reaction score
34
First Language
Czech
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
I voted no just because I 10/10 would accidentally quit the game while grinding.
I don't think that would be a problem so long as it's not the very first option.
 

rpg_el

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
83
Reaction score
35
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
@Riazey ah, thanks for explaining! Not sure that will change your mind, but keep in mind it shows the literal "Game End" menu, which means it has a confirm/cancel entry. (The same menu that shows when you click "Game End" in the escape ingame menu with the actors portraits.) Also, it only shows at the battle start (unless you intentionally back out to the "Fight"/"Escape" again later), and as Beregon said it won't be the focused entry.
 

Riazey

Master of None
Veteran
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
137
Reaction score
155
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
I had considered there would be a confirm/deny but trust me if we can close the game by accident from the regular menu we can do it from battle xD Plus people tend to go super braindead when they are grinding or lategame, ie. pressing the buttons without much thinking especially in the majority of rpg maker games.

Imagine being 20 minutes into grinding and accidentally hitting exit game mid mashing of keys/gamepad buttons, then realize you haven't saved in a while. That'd be deal-breaking for some people ahaha, plus the number of times one would actually want to exit (as a player and not as a game-dev) mid-fight are very few and far between, not enough to warrant the button being there I would assume!
 

rpg_el

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
83
Reaction score
35
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
@Riazey MZ auto-saves at either the start or the end (like, one of these two but I forgot which) of each battle, and each map change (you can stick with your vote of course, I'm just pointing it out)
 
Last edited:

Riazey

Master of None
Veteran
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
137
Reaction score
155
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
Yeah I just think for the amount of use it would get it's a bit redundant/cluttered, it would be useful if say you have to for some reason exit to the title several times every few hours of play, but I think by that point there might be a game design flaw there. :kaoswt:

Edit: Another option (if it's a fight you might need to immediately yeet yourself out of because it's so hard you need to be that prepared) would be to ask the player if they are sure they are ready to proceed to the boss fight, because if they say yes then and went in unprepared it's their own fault haha~
 

rpg_el

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
83
Reaction score
35
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
@Riazey but that would be useless since you can't quit half way then. (Which is possible with what I proposed, since you can back out again of all of the menus to the outer Fight/Escape/Game End one.) Also, why is realizing a battle is unwinnable a flaw? :kaoeh:I would actually consider your grind description way worse gameplay than actually having few but challenging fights that require me to think and occasionally realize I went in with the wrong preparation, but I was quiet about it since I don't want to judge. Nevertheless, please realize this really depends on how the game is designed. And with the autosave, an extra confirm, and having it be a menu entry that has no focus, I'm a bit surprised you'd consider it such a risky additional entry. But alas, just my thought on it of course.

Edit: just to give an example, in Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 it is from my own experience somewhat common to realize a few seconds into any battle - not just bosses - that it is either unwinnable, or not winnable with a reasonably limited amount of resource use, given the current gear and party. (And escaping may not always be very feasible either, depends on the map and other factors, and may just not be worth the time to try.) Same with Gothic 1 & 2, although there escaping is usually are more feasible option (or you end up instant dead anyway). And these are mostly considered some of the most groundbreaking western RPGs ever made, so I'm not sure why this would be so weird.
 
Last edited:

Riazey

Master of None
Veteran
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
137
Reaction score
155
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
I think if someone makes a game with so many boss fights that hard that often where the player may need to escape that fight, and there ARE games like that, but they should just not turn off the escape option then though and if they leave the fight without defeating the boss game over/take them straight to the load screen~

Correct me if I am wrong too since I'm not sure- I think it's harder to remove that option if the dev doesn't want it vs adding it in in? And I think the number of game devs making a game hard enough to warrant/want it would be significantly smaller than those who don't? So it would probably be a lot more people looking to remove it than add it in.

I think the majority of players don't appreciate/would use it as much as harder core players do too, the number of casual players is usually way higher (unless it's marketed as a hardcore game which would be in the small % of games that would make great use of this). :kaoluv:

Just food for thought <3

---------------------

Edit: Oh yeah and haha I don't mean that realizing a battle is unwinnable because you didn't prep enough is the flaw, more like if you have your player going back to the title screen several times every few hours- it just doesn't seem like good game flow?
 

rpg_el

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
83
Reaction score
35
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
it just doesn't seem like good game flow?
Well, Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 & most infinity engine games from Bioware would like to have a word with you. There is no challenge without having the occasional failure. And again, this is useless for boss fights only since that isn't the only type of battle where this can happen, if your game isn't 90% filler. I think if your game doesn't benefit from this option at all, I'd consider it more of a bad sign than when it does, honestly. Stop stuffing your game with braindead fights, IMHO (but that's just my opinion, of course.)

but they should just not turn off the escape option
Escape can fail, so not really a suitable replacement. It's better than nothing of course, but it wastes the player's time when they already set their mind to just reload a save.

I think it's harder to remove that option if the dev doesn't want it vs adding it in in?
No, it is almost trivially easy to hide menu entries with plugins.

So it would probably be a lot more people looking to remove it
I really don't understand the conclusion. Why would most want to remove it? Sure, you gave a reason, but that despite the autosave and all the other things like confirm button making it extremely unlikely you'd ever lose progress even if you're extremely clumsy, and even if your game is very grindy and doesn't usually need this option to be used. (And why would you want to be your game that grindy that you get so inattentive in menus anyway?)

It is also generally considered bad UI design to have gameplay sections where you can't quit out the game and reload. During dialogs and cutscenes it is somewhat historically accepted, but other than that it's just considered bad if you're stuck in a game almost everywhere outside of the RPG Maker world. So why is it suddenly any good here? I really don't get it, but maybe I just play more non-RPG Maker games than others here.

(Small additional note: RPG Maker default UI is also hated a lot by reviewers outside of the community, if you ever noticed. This got better with MZ though, where the mouse navigation in the menus is thankfully no longer hilariously confusing and bad, but I'm sometimes frustrated there isn't happening more which is why I'm making these threads. But sometimes it feels like talking to a wall. Like, this change may seem minor, but there are a couple of minor things like this one that really make the UI needlessly player hostile. It adds up...)

Anyway, this is why I'm really quite baffled by all the "No" votes...
 
Last edited:

Riazey

Master of None
Veteran
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
137
Reaction score
155
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
Haha the people have spoken.

Lmao now I'm just thinking about the 99.9% of people who save-scum Baldurs gate.
 

rpg_el

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
83
Reaction score
35
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
Obviously. But I'm still wondering if most just didn't read the thread, and got it wrong. (By assuming "Game End" is literal instant game quit, not the to title menu choice - not my fault it's named like that by default) Hence I'm a bit frustrated almost nobody is explaining it in-depth. I appreciate that you did, at least.
 

Ahuramazda

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
251
Reaction score
116
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
Voted no because f5 already allows you to simply go back to title instantly, and if you're using a gamepad you can set it up so you need to press like "start+select" at the same time so it cant be accidently triggered.

I personally see no reason to add it to the party command window and obviously never have the RPG Maker Devs. They design the engine in the way they want it to be, but allow it to be customized enough a player can add in things like this if so desired quite easily.

If a fight is going to be a loss in the end anyways either f5 and restart manually or do whatever to get killed faster. Or you know, try to adapt and see if you can somehow overcome the battle despite feeling like you cant. Rage quitting/resetting is just another method of giving up and shouldn't feel good to do it in my opinion.

Edit: And just because you want a feature for your projects doesn't mean the majority of the RPG maker base would want/use it. Same for me and auto-saving, as soon as I saw that as an option: instant disabled as it doesn't fit my games design.

If they were to add it in, it would need to be yet another toggle option in the editor for them to add in when its already getting pretty crammed enough.
 

rpg_el

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
83
Reaction score
35
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
Interesting!
For what it's worth, F5 is yet another anachronism I will never understand, sure it makes sense to seasoned RPG Maker players, but almost nobody outside of this will ever have heard of it for a desktop game. Like, people probably know it for web pages, but in many programs or games it either does nothing, or something entirely different. And I'm not saying it should be removed (I personally always do from my games but that's another story), just that it's an obscure enough choice - and remember, on mobile it's not even available(!) - that I don't get how this is a suitably obvious way to go about this for new players.

The game pad one I didn't even know was possible. Fascinating. It's cool that exists of course, but how many new players will actually know about this? I just don't find striving for game UI where you need to read the manual to just navigate the menus and reload a save in a battle all too useful, personally. Nothing wrong with expert user shortcuts, but I just don't see why that needs to imply normal players get stuck in battle :kaoback:

Rage quitting/resetting is just another method of giving up and shouldn't feel good to do it in my opinion.
Actually, the most successful difficult games appear to be those who make it easy to reload and retry. (Think of Super Meat Boy, or again, BG 1 & 2). So I don't want to say you're wrong, and it's ok to have an opinion, just that maybe it might be worth reconsidering that stance. And the problem for me is, when ALT+F4 is the only obvious option people might actually rage quit entirely when there's no easy obvious alternative way to retry quickly. So that is why this menu design really irks me.
 

Ahuramazda

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
251
Reaction score
116
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
There are better programs when it comes to making mobile games, so I never consider RPG Maker for being a true mobile-maker, as for players never finding out about these nifty shortcuts: this is why I have tutorials early on to explain to them they have the options :D (I even have a library in the starting town that has every tutorial for the game, even stuff unlocked late in the progress that only becomes able to read once that feature is unlocked... that way they always know where they can go to see all systems/shortcuts/tips)

If you don't inform a player of all the options in your game, then they will never know. Like on ff7 my wife never knew that she could press select in battle to pull up a constant tooltip message that told enemy stats when targeting them, and she played it for nearly 20 years without ever knowing. She only found out when she saw me playing it once and I had the tooltip box turned on and her reaction was HOOOOW?!

As for changing my stance on the idea of giving up, that wont happen XD I prefer to keep trying new ideas when I hit a brick wall to make sure I wasn't missing something, so that is my games general design philosophy... every boss has a "best way" to beat them, but there are several other methods that require some thought/luck/skill to setup that will beat them, sometimes even faster than the "best" way to kill
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Latest Threads

Latest Posts

Latest Profile Posts

Those kittens I met the other day all found loving homes. I might miss playing with them, but I'm glad they found owners to care for them. In the meantime, my Orlando trip is likely to happen on the 29th. While I wait for that, I'll be working on Angel of Justice...
I really need to work on my time management skills... I have one plot-based roleplay here, another plot-based roleplay there, I have the fangame to work on, I'm trying to get into Runescape again....

Forum statistics

Threads
104,231
Messages
1,004,873
Members
135,753
Latest member
thedan95
Top