Using music from other well-known games.

[Fernyfer775]

Hello there! So, I was just curious to know what the community thought about people using music from games such as Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Breath of Fire, (insert other well-known RPG names here), etc. in their games.

I've seen some pretty mixed feelings on this as I've read some of the reviews that people do on this site for other forum members and their games. 

I've seen some people completely bash a game for using, for example, the Final Fantasy prelude, but I've seen others give praise for the feeling of nostalgia. 

What are your feelings or thoughts on this?

Personally, I like hearing familiar music that takes me back, and that music sure as hell beats some of the ear bleed inducing "music" that some people add to their games. Then again, I've heard some music that people have created themselves and was completely pulled in by the sheer beauty of it. 

 

[MektiKwiiger]

Ripped resources are bad, and should really not be used in stuff you actually publish worldwide.

 

[Fernyfer775]

I guess I should add, for non-commercial games (If that changes anything).

 

[MektiKwiiger]

That is slightly less bad, but still not really OK.

 

[Kes]

If you are putting it up on a site for others to download, even if it's free, that still means worldwide availability.  But even if the game is free the question still remains, should we be using ripped resources?  My answer is no, we shouldn't.  Basic principles of honesty and of justice to the original creators.

 

[RadiantCadenza]

Putting everything else aside, It's a bad idea just because if you get caught by the wrong person, you could land in serious trouble. 

That said, there are a lot of companies that don't really seem to care as long as it's a small, non-commercial project. You certainly shouldn't, but there are fan projects like Megaman VS Streetfighter that used ripped game assets and wound up getting officially endorsed by Capcom. Of course, for every project like that, there are 20 others that get shut down for infringement. 

And there are also a lot of video game cover bands that make music from classic games, and some of them are even officially allowed to do so.

If you want to use something familiar or nostalgic, I'd recommend using a cover from one of these bands (with their permission, of course) Which is much safer than using rips of the original soundtrack. 

FYI, everything on http://ocremix.org/ can be used in non-comercial projetcts with credits. 

 

[Sharm]

I've always wondered about the legality of OCR.  Covers aren't always allowed by the owner of the copyright, I'm fairly certain that Final Fantasy covers, for instance, aren't allowed.  Being a content creator who makes a living off of making that content I will always be on the side of following the creator's wishes, even if they're being a jerk about it.

If you completely toss the question of morality out the window I think reusing famous game music should really only be for fan games.  Frog's Theme makes me think of Frog from Chrono Trigger, if it's being used by something else I'd be fighting with the music to stay interested in the game instead of having the music aid in my immersion.

 

[RadiantCadenza]

I've always wondered about the legality of OCR.  Covers aren't always allowed by the owner of the copyright, I'm fairly certain that Final Fantasy covers, for instance, aren't allowed. 

Disclaimer: This is written from the perspective of American Copyright law. Your local laws may vary:

OCR is in the same legal grey area as fanart.  It's a civil issue rather than a criminal one. If the legal copyright holder asks you to take it down, then if you fail to comply they are able to sue you. (And you will lose. Badly.)

Most companies 'allow' it because it's basically free press and shutting down things fans enjoy can lead to a massive loss of goodwill. If you start making money of of their IP they tend to stomp down pretty hard though. And even then, they'll often turn a blind eye to certain situations and small projects, I.E. selling fanart prints at conventions. 

Also, there's actually two copyrights at play, the Intellectual property, being the character depicted or musical score, and the copyright on the actual work being the picture or the musical recording. (So if you flip it around the other way, if you draw a fanart, the company that owns the character doesn't magically own your drawing. It's still your drawing so if they took your fanart and sold it, you could legally sue THEM even though it's still their character. Though they could display it on their twitter or something like that) 

If you use fanart or a cover, (with permission) then you're only breaking the initial IP copyright as opposed to breaking the IP copyright AND the art copyright. 

So you're still breaking copyright... just 'less' of it. 

Fair use laws will typically give you more favor if you make something original or transformative like a a new song arrangement or a fanart in your own style, so long as you do not make a profit. A lot of the OCR remix people DO make some money of thier stuff, but most of the companies choose to give them a free pass. For what it's worth, some of the people running OCR are actually professional composers who do a lot of 'legit' work for the industry. 

So... in practicality, under fair use laws, using fanrart or covers is essentially legal unless the original copyright owner asks you to stop or take it down, so long as there is no money involved. 

Using ripped original assets is strait-up art theft and is much more likely to get you in serious trouble. 

2nd disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on TV! (I majored in Media and Communications, so I learned the basics of IP and copyright law as deep as a producer needs to know it, but not the full extent of the legal intricacies a copyright lawyer would need to know) 

 

[Simon D. Aelsi]

I've nothing against usng songs from other games, even covers!

BUT.... you can't sell it AT ALL because it contains copyrighted materials... yes, even covers.  Bit of a double edged though, hm?

But think of the nostalgia trip THAT would be, ESPECIALLY if your target audience actually played the games your music comes from...

 

[Mouser]

Fair use doesn't cover 'ripped' assets at all. Especially if they're used in their entirety (ie: the whole 'loop' or song). In fact, if the 'ripping' involves bypassing any sort of copyright protection, the act itself is illegal. I'm not sure if that part is criminal or civil - it's what we held Dmitri Skylarov in prison for when he visited the US [he lived in Russia and what he did was legal in Russia], for those of you who remember that wonderful event. DoJ kept pressing forward even when Adobe asked them to drop the matter, so I'm guessing criminal.

Cover bands get a pass on a lot of stuff from a provision in the Mickey Mouse Preservation Act (Sonny Bono Copyright Extension) that basically 'shields' small clubs and such from lawsuits, so long as they have the proper 'insurance'. A few canny legislators from states with lots of small pubs and such threatened to derail the whole bill if that didn't go in.

Copyright (in the US) doesn't care whether or not you're using anything commercially or not (the judge may take it into consideration when deciding how heavily to fine you). Fortunately, the DMCA provides for takedown notices first (one of the few good things in that law). Get a takedown notice, take down your stuff (get three on youtube, legit or not, and they close your account).

As for OCR: David lives in Virginia, his phone number area code matches that, and there is a physical address where he could be served; but you can never be sure where the physical servers are hosted. I used to 'own' a /22 group of IP addresses I could've taken anywhere in the world with me. Fortunately I don't have to deal with those headaches any more, though it did have its good sides.

 

[amerk]

Do we really need to see a topic about this once every two months? All legalities aside, there are thousands of free to use material all over the internet, many of which are provided right here in the community. There is no excuse to use video game unless you're too lazy to look or making a fan game.

 

[ThatMaestroGuy]

Lots of interesting takes on this subject.

Personally, I feel that if one is just testing the waters of the software and NOT going commercial with it, using music from old games is just fine. There's nothing wrong with wanting to use a battle theme from another game because one didn't like the included RTP music for such a purpose. And sure there are composers all over the net (I'm one of them), offering their music to be used in others' projects...but I think it mainly comes down to whether or not such tracks would sound GOOD in such a project (again, a first or second--or beyond--"game," testing out what one can do with the program). Everything comes down to preference. If one knows what one wants, why not use it? There's no money to be made on it...so long as credit is being given where credit is due, all is well (and yes, if someone used my music in a noncommercial game and gave me credit, I'd be okay with it. Heck...I'd like to play the game to see what they've done.).

 

[Sharm]

From the content creators perspective it's not about the money at all. It's about control and respect. When I find my artwork used in a way I didn't give permission for I am always extremely upset and it takes a lot of motivation away from making more art. Sure, it means the person likes my stuff, but it also means that they don't actually care at all about me, my time or effort or anything. It's highly insulting. It also puts me in a difficult position legally because I could be seen as supporting whatever that art is being used for. It also limits my abilities to do what I want with my own art. For example if my tiles were ripped and redistributed and used in games then it makes it incredibly hard to sell those tiles later, especially if I wanted to sell them to someone who wanted exclusive rights. People might be tired of them already, or see poorly made edits and think that anything associated with that style is also poorly done (this particular thing has happened to me already). You may think that putting ripped stuff in your game is harmless, but everything you do has an effect on other people, especially if you do that thing publicly.

 

[Simon D. Aelsi]

From the content creators perspective it's not about the money at all. It's about control and respect. When I find my artwork used in a way I didn't give permission for I am always extremely upset and it takes a lot of motivation away from making more art. Sure, it means the person likes my stuff, but it also means that they don't actually care at all about me, my time or effort or anything. It's highly insulting. It also puts me in a difficult position legally because I could be seen as supporting whatever that art is being used for. It also limits my abilities to do what I want with my own art. For example if my tiles were ripped and redistributed and used in games then it makes it incredibly hard to sell those tiles later, especially if I wanted to sell them to someone who wanted exclusive rights. People might be tired of them already, or see poorly made edits and think that anything associated with that style is also poorly done (this particular thing has happened to me already). You may think that putting ripped stuff in your game is harmless, but everything you do has an effect on other people, especially if you do that thing publicly.

This!

 

[Titanhex]

Sharm is right, especially from a indie developers stand point.

Well-established works already have their stuff engrained in the minds of many. And some of their stuff has long since been seen as past work, no longer usable or marketable in their field. If someone was to use that in their game, it will mostly be ignored unless the work poses a viable threat to the IP and Copyright protection afforded to the work.

Ethics and morality are another subject. Generally, if I find a game with well known and highly established music, it's hard to shake the association. There have been a few games where I recognized the work, but it was so profoundly well used that I didn't associate it with the original music while playing, so immersion wasn't broken. I felt Crestallen's "The Way" using FFVII's Nibelheim theme accomplished this. Few games do though, and it's generally not worth the risk.

 

[riarawinter]

From the content creators perspective it's not about the money at all. It's about control and respect. When I find my artwork used in a way I didn't give permission for I am always extremely upset and it takes a lot of motivation away from making more art. Sure, it means the person likes my stuff, but it also means that they don't actually care at all about me, my time or effort or anything. It's highly insulting. It also puts me in a difficult position legally because I could be seen as supporting whatever that art is being used for. It also limits my abilities to do what I want with my own art. For example if my tiles were ripped and redistributed and used in games then it makes it incredibly hard to sell those tiles later, especially if I wanted to sell them to someone who wanted exclusive rights. People might be tired of them already, or see poorly made edits and think that anything associated with that style is also poorly done (this particular thing has happened to me already). You may think that putting ripped stuff in your game is harmless, but everything you do has an effect on other people, especially if you do that thing publicly.

This is spot on.

I could never use things from other games in my projects. I struggle with the idea of fanfiction for the same reasons. I associate music from the video games I've played with those specific video games: those characters, that scene, that boss, some defining moment of the story or other, blah blah blah. That doesn't apply to whatever I'm doing, because what I'm doing is different. I'm using my own characters and my own story. To link that to something else just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[SergeX]

I dont agree with most of the things were said here. Please dont mind my english. 

First: I really really don't like this idea that art is of a property of a certain individual. No. This kinda of idea does have nothing of art itself and a lot in commom with capitalism or industry in the most rough sense. But never art. The myth of the "author" is already gone long ago. Stealing someones idea is VERY different from incorporate a song of another game into yours. So because Pasolini in his films uses music from Bach he's stealing? NO!! The creators of Evangelion didn't composed the 9th Symphony, and we somehow know Beethoven compositions from another experiences. Even so Evangelion "uses" and manages to give a whole new sense to the song. Like when *SPOILERS* Shinji kills Kaworu or Asuka is brain attacked by the angel.

For me, of course, I'm talking of non-comercial projects. I don't have any interest on commercial rpg maker. Of course, if we're talking of paid resources (like the ones of Lunarea), I'll pay to use them. But I don't want make money. Of course, all respect for who try to make money with this, its just that I'm looking for another goals. 

Corporations got a lot of money, its not like using a track from FF OST will bring any harm to Nobuo or whatever. And for laws... Well, I'm not trying to make money with my games, so why would be that bad? I really dont see why. Corporations exists because of us who pay. If I'm putting a song from Chrono Cross, it's because that song had a particular and STRONG meaning to me, and expresses a feeling or something that I want the players to feel when they are playing my game and hear the track. Its not steal or rippin of. 

Art isn't something you see behind the glass or a object of cult. Its something you touch, that concern your feelings, that you deal with, you talk to. So, if I'm putting Requiem from FFTatics its because this song has a lot of meaning for me and for the particular cutscene it plays. I'm interacting with the song somehow in my creative process.

Of course, I think that you can't just copy and past a soundtrack in your game. Before import any song, you have to think well why you're putting the song into your game. This decision is hard, because you have to give also a new meaning to the song so the player don't just remember of the original game which the song came from. You have to somehow recreate the song with your characters, dialogue, map, story. I think this is the challenge for who chooses this route. Evangelion did give a new "meaning" for the Symphony by Beethoven. Also, I like the nostalgia factor, but I wont say much about this topic.

And the obvious: we are human beings. We can't do everything: we run out of time and we are limited beings. So why dont borrow from more skilled ones? I really would like to have the time to learn to compose music. But I lack this time, I'm not rich. I have ton of other things to do, and my time to finish my game is already very short. What matters is how your game is effective in the terms of your vision. How it can express all the things you want. Thats why using music from previous games isn't easy or should be taken in a silly way, neither is the worst thing like is being said here.

 

[Sharm]

Bach is dead, his works are in the public domain, it's a poor comparison. What we're talking about is using resources made by still living people who do this as a job. Your attitude is exactly why it's so hard for creative types to get living wages by doing their art. Because of this it's harder for them to find the time to be creative, they have to work a normal job first and try to fit in the job that they really want to do in their free time and then despair because so many people steal their work instead of commissioning them for something new or paying royalties and so on. It's not borrowing talent from gifted people, it's stealing hard work from people who are usually quite poor. It's a jerk move and I will never have anything but contempt for the people who think it's somehow okay.


You may think that because it's owned by a corporation instead of a person that things are different but it's not. Corporations are made up of people, they pay for those people to do that job and for things to be iconic to their product. If the business does well then they're likely to pay for that same person to do it again. There's obviously a lot of stuff you don't know about running a business, letting someone else use your paid for resources freely can absolutely ruin a business, even a well established one.


Stealing creative things may give you a nice little boost but it makes the whole artistic community poorer. It means that there is less awesome creative stuff made, not more.

 

[Cronus]

About the ethical question...
To use copyrighted music from video games (even graphic material as well) is a common practice among RPG Maker users since its beginnings, a custom from more than a decade ago. RPG Maker games with original assets including music were really rare and you could count them on the fingers of one hand. In this case, consider that the Indie Game development wasn't so popular and serious as it is today, and those games were limited to niches and relatively small groups of people. People didn't aimed for money or for global recognition, and (at least in my opinion) this didn't cause any damage for the traditional gaming industry. How many of you have used a custom midi files of famous games from VGMusic on your projects? Well, I've used A LOT and I have no reason to hide or regret about it. Be it midis, MP3, sprites ripped out from Spriters Resource and so on. I also discovered a lot of new games and companies not only on the searching process, but that also were presented to me on the rm games made by other people. "Wow, that tileset is beautiful! Rudora no Hihou? Never heard about, I'm going to check it! (on my pirate emulator of course)". It's also important to consider that it wasn't easy to find free licensed material of good quality as it is today, and few people had the skills to do it by themselves (for what I can tell, majority of users always were kids and teenagers, both inexperienced with game development).

But today there's some big things that change this scenario. First one is that RPG Maker is officially supported on the west, discouraging piracy and encouraging the usage of licensed assets. Second and maybe most important is that this is the Golden Era of Indie Game Development, so I'd say the overall "innocence" of making little games is not really the same anymore. Intellectual property is highly valued (what isn't wrong by any means), and to make games using anything unlicensed is seen as anti-ethical or even offensive by some people. Today there's much more alternatives though. A lot of royalty free material is available if you look well enough and there's even communities dedicated to provide assets, like opengameart.org that contains even public domain material. Actually, there's a lot of Japanese blogs dedicated to produce RPG Maker material and they aren't really new but well... not everyone who have the skills to find them. So, if using ripped material is not ok by the majority today, at least there's options for people who cannot afford or produce your own (even if your library of options is much more limited).

I think this is a topic that should be seen by the two sides of the coin. For one side, kids and teenagers can be making games without big pretensions just for fun, looking for what is accessible and making homages for what they like, and I really doubt that using music from a Final Fantasy game can bring any bad for the industry, principally if everybody knows from where it is and if no one beyond a small community is playing it. On the other side, using copyrighted or unlicensed material in inadequate manners (like omitting where you get something from, committing plagiarism or trying to get commercial benefits) can't be seen as an ethical and tolerable attitude, principally in a era where there's a lot of independent artists fighting every day to produce their own material and have their own merits for bringing something original in fair manners.

I understand and I don't blame people that want to use a famous cool music from a big game on their small game if they are giving proper credits and if they aren't being pretentious. But I can't agree with the idea of "all art should be free even if you don't want yours to be, IP is BS", neither. Art and artists should be respected and original content should be valued, principally the small ones. In the end is a matter of having a good sense in your choices and analyzing what can be ok and what can be detrimental.
 

 

[riarawinter]

1) I really really don't like this idea that art is of a property of a certain individual.

2) Corporations got a lot of money, its not like using a track from FF OST will bring any harm to Nobuo or whatever.

3) Corporations exists because of us who pay. If I'm putting a song from Chrono Cross, it's because that song had a particular and STRONG meaning to me, and expresses a feeling or something that I want the players to feel when they are playing my game and hear the track. Its not steal or rippin of.

1) I wonder if that would change if you became an artist, and still had to do things like eat and pay bills.

2) That does not make it right, and it greys the area. You think it's okay to take from someone who is famous already? Is it then okay to take something from someone who isn't? Do you have a line here anywhere, or...? Also, an artist isn't a corporation. Corporations employ people too, y'know, they aren't robots.

3) You pay for the product you got. You don't own anything in it by doing that. Liking something does not mean you own it, and it's entirely possible to appreciate someone's work without stealing it and reusing it without their permission. That shows a huge lack of respect for the creator. That song had a particular and strong meaning to you... in that game. Someone else's game. Someone else's story. Why does that mean it belongs in yours? Because you don't know how to create that feeling for yourself, in your own way? That's just lazy.

Bach is dead, his works are in the public domain, it's a poor comparison. What we're talking about is using resources made by still living people who do this as a job. Your attitude is exactly why it's so hard for creative types to get living wages by doing their art. Because of this it's harder for them to find the time to be creative, they have to work a normal job first and try to fit in the job that they really want to do in their free time and then despair because so many people steal their work instead of commissioning them for something new or paying royalties and so on. It's not borrowing talent from gifted people, it's stealing hard work from people who are usually quite poor. It's a jerk move and I will never have anything but contempt for the people who think it's somehow okay.

You may think that because it's owned by a corporation instead of a person that things are different but it's not. Corporations are made up of people, they pay for those people to do that job and for things to be iconic to their product. If the business does well then they're likely to pay for that same person to do it again. There's obviously a lot of stuff you don't know about running a business, letting someone else use your paid for resources freely can absolutely ruin a business, even a well established one.

Stealing creative things may give you a nice little boost but it makes the whole artistic community poorer. It means that there is less awesome creative stuff made, not more.

This. Exactly this.