Using RTP maps legitimately

[Manofdusk]

A conversation about game difficulty and legitimate horror rpgs (instead of horror visual novels) got me really thinking about a few things.

I once had a theory that anything could be made into horror... and so I thought I'd test that theory (my current game has evolved in a different direction than that so this'll be something I'll work on when I don't feel like making assets or working on my current game).

To test this theory, I was planning on doing everything in my power to make the world itself as simple and familiar as possible so that when the Surreal starts... when things are just off... the player can pick up on it intuitively. Also, since the primary demographic that'll be playing this game will be people who have RPG Maker, I had a thought.

Why not use the RTP assets? People are already familiar with them. People have seen the maps and so are familiar with their layouts. Since horror is meant to play on people's preconceptions and expectations, there is tremendous potential here since you can already predict what the player will be thinking.

The main problem is that, so many people have used them, their use is indicative of lazy game design. So the question becomes: How can you use RTP characters and maps in such a way that the player will play along long enough to hook them with the story and won't immediately put the game down?

My first instinct is to say "Self Aware". Have the rtp characters be aware that they are characters and that the rtp maps are indeed assets. This gets around the need to "sell" the world as its own place.

However, in an instance where the characters are self aware... it opens up to the problem that the player may not be able to "buy into" the world and could be distanced from the horror. In any case, I'm interested in hearing thoughts related to how RTP assets could be used legitimately to enhance the story specifically because they ARE RTP.

 

[Shaz]

the primary demographic that'll be playing this game will be people who have Game Maker

Do you mean RPG Maker? You can't use the RM RTP in Game Maker.

 

[Manofdusk]

Yes, RPG Maker. I don't know why I typed in Game Maker. I must've been distracted or something I fixed it.

 

[Wavelength]

In any case, I'm interested in hearing thoughts related to how RTP assets could be used legitimately to enhance the story specifically because they ARE RTP.

I'm inclined to say "they can't", but your own idea of 'the loss of the familiar' could be a good way to add an air of creepiness to a game. What I'd do is start off with straight RTP maps at the beginning of the game, start changing them around in small ways in the early/mid game, then start adding major corruptions even later where things clearly aren't how they're supposed to be (e.g. tiles from other sets extending onto the map, occasional dark symbology), and finally, very late in the game, completely corrupt and transform the RTP maps so that it looks like the RTP map was ravaged by an unholy force (but with the same layout and some of the same themes).

 

[Lithalean]

Not Possible. Any game using RTP is not legitimate or even respectable for anything outside of a "learning project".
Unfortunately, Steam Greenlight has become a cesspool filled with such atrocities!

 

[KyleRiley]

Not Possible. Any game using RTP is not legitimate or even respectable for anything outside of a "learning project".
Unfortunately, Steam Greenlight has become a cesspool filled with such atrocities!

That seems a bit narrow minded, and somewhat snooty.

There are many different reasons someone might want to use the RTP, and to always label them as lazy for it is rather ridiculous.

 

[Gonor]

Not Possible. Any game using RTP is not legitimate or even respectable for anything outside of a "learning project".
Unfortunately, Steam Greenlight has become a cesspool filled with such atrocities!

It's true that there's a lot of RTP games out there with "questionable" quality and I agree that you shouln't release a commercial game made entirely with the RTP. But I think using parts of the RTP is not a problem at all if it is not too much.
Although, again, you can discuss about what "too much" actually means.

 

[bgillisp]

All that is required is to use it well. Example (the shadows are not yet final, so don't focus on that):

Spoiler

All RTP but the player character, the snake, and the skeleton. But there's still a huge difference between that and say a bad RTP map of a 90 x 90 house.

Interesting statistic too: Usually those who say don't use the RTP in a commercial project don't have a finished project of their own, so they fail to understand why someone might want to use it. So may wish to take the whole "Don't use the RTP" advice with a grain of salt, unless you want to spend 10+ years making each game.

 

[Lithalean]

@KyleRiley
I'm not denying it, I'm 100% "snooty", but I don't think that makes me wrong, nor do I think my view point is narrow minded. In fact, I think the excessive sugar coating of this community is one of its biggest flaws. Again, I'm talking about strictly commercial games here. Learning projects should use RTP, and enjoy the learning experience. Although, on commercial games, using RTP is lazy and should be looked at with extreme disdain.
@Gonor
In commercial games "too much" is 1 asset, regardless if it's audio or graphics. Commercial games should have ZERO RTP! I'm not saying you have to personally make the Non-RTP assets, but RTP has no place in a commercial game.
This community is filled with talented artist, many of whom release custom assets for free.
@bgillisp
Sorry, but in my opinion, the character, the snake, and the skeleton are the only things it that picture that would warrant commercial production. It's obvious that everything else is made with RTP, and if I saw it on an app store I wouldn't give it the time of day.
As for your statistic... thats very fair and accurate for me as well.
Although, I have no issues spending 2-5 years on a game.Quality over Quantity. I'll use "The Amber Throne" as an example of project done right. (and one with a lengthy production time)

My Game

Spoiler

So, what I'm working on now won't even be a publicly released game. The reason is, I'm making a short (10ish Maps) Zelda Game, that I'm strictly testing game mechanics on, and showing that a high level 2D Zelda can be made with RPG Maker. A proof of concept that will incorporate as many Breath of Wild mechanics as possible. Those mechanics I will then use on my own commercial game that will have a minimum of 2 year production time.
My target platform is iOS, and my targeted device is the iPhone 8.
Currently, my Zelda games resolution is 1334x750. If rumors are true, I'll be changing that to 2436x1125. I'm just waiting on the official word from Apple.
Screenshots of Map Creation

Screenshots of Game Analytics

 

[bgillisp]

@Lithalean : We may wish to talk more when your product is done. As it is, I've been here 3 years and every single person who has brought up that argument has deserted their project. Hence why I say what I do about that.

And did you know the Amber Throne only sold 1097 copies, even with custom graphics? I only know that as the author posted their sales figures on here a few months after it released (now, maybe it increased, but still...). So if we can only expect 1097 sales at $14.99 each, and custom tiles cost $18000+...no one is going to do custom tiles, as that is an invite to bankruptcy (as I doubt we could charge $39.99 per game to recoup the cost of the tiles...even $39.99 AAA games don't sell well many times).

Edit: With that said, back to the OP's question. I think the important thing is to know your audience here. There are three main camps I've found...the group that likes to play RPGMaker games if they are good and don't care about the graphics, the group that won't touch RPGMaker games at all, and the group that avoids the RTP like the plague. Figure which one you wish to cater too, and market your game to them, as there is no good way to appease all three groups well.

 

[Manofdusk]

I'm inclined to say "they can't", but your own idea of 'the loss of the familiar' could be a good way to add an air of creepiness to a game. What I'd do is start off with straight RTP maps at the beginning of the game, start changing them around in small ways in the early/mid game, then start adding major corruptions even later where things clearly aren't how they're supposed to be (e.g. tiles from other sets extending onto the map, occasional dark symbology), and finally, very late in the game, completely corrupt and transform the RTP maps so that it looks like the RTP map was ravaged by an unholy force (but with the same layout and some of the same themes).

I like this idea.... though how precisely to keep a player engaged at the beginning remains. As I mentioned, having the character be aware of his video game state is one way to do it..... BUT that can really detract from the personal aspect of horror.

UNLESS perhaps you play on that... and give the player the feeling that they're watching a horror show (for example, have the character's be aware of it when they're killed and address the player regarding how much it hurt). One Shot did a pretty good job of involving the player in the story as an active participant.

 

[Wavelength]

I like this idea.... though how precisely to keep a player engaged at the beginning remains. As I mentioned, having the character be aware of his video game state is one way to do it..... BUT that can really detract from the personal aspect of horror.

Yeah, I think that's a very reasonable thought. If the game manages to really nail the second half, the word of mouth of "just wait until things start going haywire" (considering that this word of mouth is probably what will lead to most people playing the game in the first place) should be enough to keep most players hanging around until things get good. Of course, there should still be good storytelling, eventing, and gameplay in every part of the game, so that should be able to engage the player for the duration where the maps can't.

I don't personally like the idea of frequently breaking the fourth wall, except for games that are supposed to be extremely lighthearted. Yeah, Undertale did it really well, but for every success story of a game that manages a mostly dramatic tone while pulling this off, I feel like there are twenty failures.

Not Possible. Any game using RTP is not legitimate or even respectable for anything outside of a "learning project".
Unfortunately, Steam Greenlight has become a cesspool filled with such atrocities!

It's generally considered lazy to use RTP fully-made Maps (although this discussion is about how they can be used intentionally as good design) or RTP playable Character Sprites, as well as the default database's full Characters, Classes, Equipment, Items, and/or Skills (these latter things aren't technically RTP, but I guess that's a pedantic distinction). RTP Battle Sprites, Map Sprites (for NPCs), Portraits, and Music are not that bad but a commercial game should use them sparingly. Asking indie game designers not to use any RTP Map Tiles, Sound Effects, or Map Sprites (for objects) is a ridiculous ask and it shows that you have very little experience using middleware to actually create (complete) games.

Even with the average graphics you're making (I don't mean this as an insult - you seem like a talented artist - it's merely in recognition that a lot of the art you're showing, such as the water and the background, looks worse than the RTP), if you try to create all of your resources from scratch and create something of the same scope of Breath of the Wild, a 2-year development timeframe is very unrealistic. 5-10 years would be accurate if (and only if) you're working on it full-time. A smaller-scope game could be done in two years, sure, but is it really worth everything you'll have to cut out in order to ensure that you didn't use anything from the game's RTP? In my opinion, no.