Using the 'Immortal' State.

Discussion in 'Game Mechanics Design' started by Diretooth, Aug 14, 2019 at 5:53 PM.

  1. Diretooth

    Diretooth Lv. 23 Werewolf Veteran

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    In RPG Maker MV (And perhaps earlier engines, I don't really know), a common premade state that you can come across is 'Immortal', which offers complete nullification of the 'Knockout' state (I.E. Death.)
    I am not a particularly creative person, so normally I never use it, and have only ever used it once, only to be confused when a character that had it didn't die. This pre-made state, like most skills, animations, etc. provided in the engine(s) is a tool much like anything else, so I have to ask, have you ever used it, and what did you use it for?
     
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  2. caethyril

    caethyril ^_^ Veteran

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    Generally for bosses etc, when they should say/do something at 0 HP. Can be handy for other stuff, too, e.g. a slime that splits in two when reaching 0 HP, an enemy that cannot die unless targetted by a particular item, an enemy that immediately revives if certain conditions are met, etc.

    Also, by default battle ends the moment all enemies are defeated, which means any troop events based on "Enemy HP <= 0%" will not get a chance to run if that was the last enemy to fall. The immortal state solves that problem, and you can remove it at the end of the event as needed. :)
     
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  3. Wavelength

    Wavelength Pre-Merge Boot Moderator

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    The most common use seems to be as a technical tool - being able to have things happen when an enemy reaches 0 HP before its death/collapse is processed (which is particularly important if this is the last enemy left in the troop - we don't want the battle to end quite yet) - such as spouting dialogue, giving a bonus to the party for the kill, or conditionally reviving the enemy.

    The only place I use an Immortal state in timeblazer is a single actor-learnable skill called Warrior's Heart, which makes the user unable to be KO'ed for 4 turns. At the end of the 4 turns, the user heals for 20% of their missing HP. This skill is once-per-battle to prevent abuse, and I've found it to be a great "last chance" tactic to pull out the really close fights.

    Probably the coolest use I've ever seen for an Immortal state is a troop of enemies that the player fights which have to be taken down at nearly the same time in order to kill for good. When an enemy is reduced to 0 HP, it is put in a state that makes it Immortal and also Unable to Move. After three turns, that state is removed and the enemy is revived with full HP. If all three enemies are in this state at the same time, they die and the player wins. I think the Sacred Earth series probably does this too, except for the actors instead of the enemies. Also, a boss battle in Grand Chase Mobile used this (where you have to defeat 5 automatons at nearly the same time), and as an action game where it's harder to manage who you're hitting and when, it was absolutely thrilling.
     
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  4. ShadowDragon

    ShadowDragon Veteran Veteran

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    I use a customized Immortal state than the default one, of the use of HP cores, when its hits 0, a core refreshes his HP, this also
    count a a tiny shield if you have 4 hp left and gain 30 dmg, you get only 4 hp dmg and refreshes HP, when the HP cores
    are 0 and hp, its dies :)
     
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  5. Milennin

    Milennin "With a bang and a boom!" Veteran

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    I've used it on characters with a once-per-battle passive revival skill.

    On enemies, I've used it for various on-death triggers. Like transformations, removal of adds summoned by the slain monster, skills that trigger effects when they kill an enemy, end-of-battle cutscenes before the victory screen shows up. There's a lot of good uses for the Immortal state.
     
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  6. xoferew

    xoferew Veteran Veteran

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    Certain of my monsters need to be killed with a certain type of weapon (eg. silver). So everyone helps get the HP down but it won't die until the character with the right weapon does the finishing move.

    I have never used Immortality for things I want to happen at the end of the battle because I do that after the battle (drop items etc.)
     
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  7. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    I actually deleted it... and then remade it into a little bit more practical terms. Essentially, I turned it into 6 separate states. :D

    As for its use? Simple!

    I have a character who uses "Adrenaline" type skills. They push themselves beyond normal physical limitations using TP, and these effects do not last very long. "Not dying when they should" is one of those limitations.

    I turned the state into a combat option. Need to guarantee a few turns where you absolutely cannot lose the fight? Cast the skill that grants death immunity.

    Or... :D Orrrrrrrr……….

    I have a skill that does more damage, the less HP you have. If you have 500 total HP... but have 0 current HP... the formula uses 500 as the base damage... then puts on a multiplier of 1.5 (750 damage!).

    But, the state is not without its downsides. It costs a substantial amount of TP to cast it. Not just TP, but also your HP. The baseline of the skill removes 80% of your current HP and requires a TP cost of 85 (out of 100 maximum TP). To chain this attack into the one that does a lot damage, it requires another 50 TP. So, in 3 turns, you need to accumulate 50 more TP in order to use the attack. It is possible to do so for clever players who come prepared to use this tactic, but if you just look at the two skills and nothing else, you won't find a way to get the extra TP.

    You can, eventually, if you want, turn the skill into something more "lenient" and give you 6 turns of immunity to death (at greater TP cost and greater HP cost). You can also turn the damaging skill into something vastly more powerful (for greater TP cost). But, you get 6 turns to make up the difference. There is another optional character that can transfer his TP to you for a free infusion. There are pieces of equipment that can raise TP gain, or preserve it across battle. There are consumables that restore a percentage of your TP, which are expensive, but you can use just for this purpose (however, those TP restoring items also restore HP and MP).

    I liked the idea of immunity to death, so I turned it into a tactical option. You could just use those 3 turns to revive allies or pop potions... or maybe survive an attack you normally wouldn't survive... or if you have a way, you can chain it into another skill that will do a ton of damage.

    Essentially, it opens up possibilities in combat. If you know the player has access to such a state, you can design enemies that try to exploit it. A character immune to death isn't immune to paralyzing, stunning, sleep, petrification, etcetera. You do not need to actually kill a character to take them out of the fight for a few turns. The "Death" state just ensures that once it's removed, you still have to spend time to heal that character.
     
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  8. jonthefox

    jonthefox Veteran Veteran

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    I've used it for powerful, high-cost and high-cooldown skills that are meant to prevent death. A white mage casting "divine intervention" for example. I could also see a monk using this with some kind of "transcendence" skill. And finally, of course, there's the Tryndamere Barbarian trope, "Undying Rage." In the latter case, a nice way to balance it is that it can only be used when you're below X% of HP, and it would last 2 or 3 turns. So you can still get 1-shot, but if you are able to withstand a heavy blow, you essentially buy a guaranteed free turn or two for yourself.
     
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  9. Aesica

    Aesica undefined Veteran

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    Here's some states and skills I have that make use of immortal...well, customized versions of it, not the actual Immortal state #3:
    • Zombie: Player attacks randomly and cannot be killed unless the status is removed or the battle ends, and it's tricky to remove. Their attacks have a chance to inflict the Zombie state on others. If everyone is afflicted by this state or is dead, the game is over. Obviously not a good state.
    • Last Stand: User gets 5 turns* of being unkillable and taunts all single-target attacks onto them. When the state expires, they die an unavoidable death. I haven't added this yet, but when/if I do, it's going to have a really long cooldown and possibly a warmup duration. Or maybe a limit break. (*Note that in my game, the battle system is tick-based so 5 "turns" can easily mean less than 5 actions)
    As for the Immortal state specifically provided by the engine as a default, pretty much what others have already said: I apply it to enemies that are supposed to do something on death, such as give a plot speech, split, transform, unleash a final screw-you counter attack, etc. Player reduces them to 0 hp, they do their thing, the state gets removed afterward, and they die as intended.
     
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  10. ave36

    ave36 Veteran Veteran

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    The intended use of the Immortal state is for making your own recurring minibosses similar to the Turks in FFVII. For those who never played FFVII, the Turks are a sort of MiB agents/ spies / secret policemen who work for the enemy megacorp. You encounter them as minibosses several times in the game, and when you defeat them, they escape while saying various dialogue instead of collapsing. The Immortal state allows you to make enemies with similar behaviour. An event checks if the enemy health is zero, and if it is zero, you see dialogue and the enemy escapes via force action.

    Of course, you can do other things with the Immortal state, but this is the intended use. This is exactly what I use it for. I have my own Turk-like enemies: a duo of recurring bumbling rogues that the party encounters in unexpected places. When defeated, they spout funny curses and run for the hills.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019 at 9:30 PM
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  11. Black Pagan

    Black Pagan Veteran Veteran

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    Haven't really used it for any of my Characters but i could imagine one could make a Passive Skill out of it. A Passive that would give you an x% Chance to not Die, While Reduced to Low Health perhaps.

    Many games do this so the Player feels rewarded and Lucky. Honestly, Its a double edged sword, Depends on how you implement it i guess. My personal experience seeing it being used on regular enemies, Its quite annoying.. I would avoid it, Even for Bosses.
     
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