Variance

[KeroTani]

I have a Pirate in my game and he is all about luck and loot. Most of his skills are get more stuff after combat. I was thinking about a random number attack I want to call Gamble. This idea would be the damage would be something like <b.mhp/3> with a 100% variance. I want to know what you all think or if there is a better way to give him the effect i'm looking for. 

 

[stupid enough to like FF13]

You probably don't want to base the damage off of purely the target's max HP. With the formula you have, the attack would do between 0-66% of the target's HP, which can easily end up either outclassed by less-risky attacks or absurdly overpowered when other attacks wouldn't be able to do that much damage.

A high-variance attack skill like this should probably just use the same formula as a standard attack, or one a bit stronger/weaker at most.

 

[bgillisp]

You could make gamble based on the *user's* max hp, and do more damage the more wounded you are. Then it would be a risky skill, as in do you use it, and risk being KO'd, or do you heal? I remember Bravely default had a skill like that called Minus Strike, where the damage was (a.mhp - a.hp), or the difference in your HP.

 

[KeroTani]

You probably don't want to base the damage off of purely the target's max HP. With the formula you have, the attack would do between 0-66% of the target's HP, which can easily end up either outclassed by less-risky attacks or absurdly overpowered when other attacks wouldn't be able to do that much damage.

A high-variance attack skill like this should probably just use the same formula as a standard attack, or one a bit stronger/weaker at most.

I think you are right about the formula.

 

[ArcaneEli]

if it's gamble it should be something along the lines of luck involved.

If you are using RPG Maker MV you can use this Formula:

  Which makes you deal more damage based on how low their HP is.

y = (1 - Math.max((b.hp / b.mhp ), 0.25)) ; r = 120 + (a.luk * 0.6 ) ; r = Math.round(r * (2.67 * y + 1)) ; r

With the y as the % of target's missing health with a cap for the 75%, first part r as the minimum physical damages increased by the luck of the user and second part r as the multiplication of the target's missing health percentage.

(yes I stole this from the damage formulas thread I'm way to dumb and not willing to learn to figure out the the ffff this works.)
 

 

[jonthefox]

Not a fan, myself.  How exactly is he "gambling" to do a lot or a little damage?  It feels like forcing the theme into a gameplay sphere (combat) where it doesn't belong.  Just my personal opinion.   What WOULD be interesting and really cool, I think, is if you used this idea in non-combat ways - "Pirate's Luck" for example which would give him a chance of getting more/less gold or better/worse items from chests.  This gives the character the gambling trait but in a way that fits in with the theme of the character - part of being a pirate is sometimes you find rare awesome booty, or tonz of gold which allows you to buy awesome equipment.  Now THAT feels like a treasure hunting pirate.   

 

[KeroTani]

Not a fan, myself.  How exactly is he "gambling" to do a lot or a little damage?  It feels like forcing the theme into a gameplay sphere (combat) where it doesn't belong.  Just my personal opinion.   What WOULD be interesting and really cool, I think, is if you used this idea in non-combat ways - "Pirate's Luck" for example which would give him a chance of getting more/less gold or better/worse items from chests.  This gives the character the gambling trait but in a way that fits in with the theme of the character - part of being a pirate is sometimes you find rare awesome booty, or tonz of gold which allows you to buy awesome equipment.  Now THAT feels like a treasure hunting pirate.   

I didn't think it was out of place as I was going with a theme from each character and their class. Also he has the skill to get more gold and items from battle (Pillage)(Plunder). I have a character that makes potions, his stats suck but his skills are drinks that buff him. 

 

[Kes]

I agree whole heartedly with jonthefox. What you are proposing just does not fit the character, and so would undermine it.

 

[KeroTani]

I agree whole heartedly with jonthefox. What you are proposing just does not fit the character, and so would undermine it.

How does the character being a gambler undermine him?

 

[jonthefox]

It's not that being a gambler is out of place or undermines him, it's that you are forcing that idea into a combat ability.  There's nothing about gambling that would lead you to doing more or less damage in combat.  It reminds me of Cait Sith's roll dice or whatever limit break in FF7.  I love FF7 as a game, but I think mechanics like that are silly.  

Being a gambler / loot seeker WOULD affect your interaction with treasure chests, shop owners, NPCs, etc..

Maybe a better way to give the character a combat ability would be something like "lucky shot" which would give him a chance for bonus damage.    This way he's still gambling (you're risking MP for the chance of bonus dmg) but the skill is more plausible and less gimmicky.  You should make sure that the expected value of this skill is around the same as a regular attack, which makes it a true gamble:  your EV is the same, but sometiems you waste MP, and sometimes you "win" and do bonus dmg.    

 

[KeroTani]

It's not that being a gambler is out of place or undermines him, it's that you are forcing that idea into a combat ability.  There's nothing about gambling that would lead you to doing more or less damage in combat.  It reminds me of Cait Sith's roll dice or whatever limit break in FF7.  I love FF7 as a game, but I think mechanics like that are silly.  

Being a gambler / loot seeker WOULD affect your interaction with treasure chests, shop owners, NPCs, etc..

Maybe a better way to give the character a combat ability would be something like "lucky shot" which would give him a chance for bonus damage.    This way he's still gambling (you're risking MP for the chance of bonus dmg) but the skill is more plausible and less gimmicky.  You should make sure that the expected value of this skill is around the same as a regular attack, which makes it a true gamble:  your EV is the same, but sometiems you waste MP, and sometimes you "win" and do bonus dmg.    

They did that in final fantasy 9 and it worked there. Combat is a big part of RPGs, also it's about coming up with something different.

 

[jonthefox]

Well obviously Square thought it was a good mechanic.  Everyone's got their own opinion and you can't please everyone, so obviously trust your own instincts and your own game vision.  

 

[KeroTani]

I'm not trying to say one thing is right or wrong, but i'm all about flavor. The idea of playing a game where the skills are attack #1, attack #2 etc.

 

[Wavelength]

If you're into the "gambling" theme in combat I would recommend doing is making him hit much harder than normal when he lands a Critical Hit (e.g. 4x damage instead of 2x damage).  That way you don't increase the luck factor to silly levels, nor do you make him completely OP against bosses, but you do give him the sense of "any attack could be huge" and you do so in a way that may encourage interesting Crit-heavy equipment builds.

bgillisp's idea about doing more damage the lower the pirate is on health is a good idea too, because you are encouraging the player to take risks by not healing him frequently in order to do more damage.

One other idea would be to give him attacks that have a small chance to grant great bonus items or gold when he damages, crits, and/or kills an enemy.

 

[bgillisp]

One thing to keep in mind too is the skills do not have to be combat orientated. Sure, fights are a huge part of RPG's, but why does a character have to have many combat orientated skills? Is it just because everyone else has done it? Those are questions you might want to ask yourself. Because, sure, you want to avoid attack 1, 2, etc, but its no better if you go attack, powerful attack, more powerful attack, super powerful attack, etc either.

As for another not as OP idea...how about a skill that has a random chance to do 1 damage, and a random chance to do normal, and a random chance to do double damage? Maybe something like 20% of the time you do 1 damage, 55% of the time you do normal damage, and the rest (25%) is bonus damage. The Expected value of this is slightly over normal attack (to offset the MP cost..I feel if you spend MP the expected value should be > normal attack, else why spend MP?). Will take getting cute with the damage formula (or scripts) but it can be done.

Or, why not a skill that has reduced to hit, but a higher chance of a Critical? You could do that if you don't want to take wavelength's idea and make the critical bonus apply to the character long term.

 

[KeroTani]

I do like the fact increased crit damage but I'm unsure how to do that. Can anyone give me a hand?

 

[bgillisp]

You'll need scripts for that as far as I know. I think Dekita might have one that can let you set different critical damage values for different actors?

 

[Wavelength]

In VX Ace, at least, you can change make_damage_value to pass the user/item ("item" is the skill, etc., that was used) into the apply_critical method.  Then, in the apply_critical method, you could check the user or item, and if they are certain values, multiply the damage by a higher amount than normal.

Since these are slightly messy edits to make, if you're not comfortable with coding then it's probably best to ask for a scriptlet to do this.