We need a guide to MV's base scripts!

ロリ先輩

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No.  Colleges exist for separating people into artificial tiers using Degrees.  And for making a huge profit, of course.
I honestly disagree. Uni teaches and reinforces useful knowledge that a self taught programmer likely will not find in online tutorials, like data structures, algorithms (and algorithm design), and code/time complexity, as well as theory behind programming paradigms and programming language grammars and abstractions.


While you can likely make it through life without such knowledge, evident by the number of people who pass through bootcamps (bootcamps don't teach theory) and get web dev jobs, unless you're working on code that primarily consumes other APIs or consumes dependencies and libraries to get things done, you'll have to read up on the rest anyways; most likely learning from the same textbooks, but without the oversight or guidance of a professor or advisor.
 

Chaos17

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I think documentation isn't a bad thing because that's the reason why books exist in the first place : to share knowledge.


We're here able to read and write because the knowledge of wirtting and reading weren't lost in history, were updated and shared for all.
 

Wavelength

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I honestly disagree. Uni teaches and reinforces useful knowledge that a self taught programmer likely will not find in online tutorials, like data structures, algorithms (and algorithm design), and code/time complexity, as well as theory behind programming paradigms and programming language grammars and abstractions.


While you can likely make it through life without such knowledge, evident by the number of people who pass through bootcamps (bootcamps don't teach theory) and get web dev jobs, unless you're working on code that primarily consumes other APIs or consumes dependencies and libraries to get things done, you'll have to read up on the rest anyways; most likely learning from the same textbooks, but without the oversight or guidance of a professor or advisor.


I was being somewhat glib, Lori.


But I think to some extent you are building my point for me.  Even people who have spent years learning the theory behind programming paradigms and data structures (and especially people who don't have this background) and can program on a professional level are going to come into RPG Maker's codebase and wonder where to change everything.  All their experience might hasten their learning curve, but it still takes time.


Could this professional programmer spend another ~100 hours trying to parse through everything that's there in RPG Maker's default code to understand the entire structure and system as it relates to the RPG game that's produced from the code (not just as it relates to programming in general), and then forget parts of it and need to redo their research once they actually want to make a change?  Sure they could.  But it would be much quicker and easier for such a person if they had a handy, thorough reference to the code base.


And that reference doesn't exist yet.
 
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ロリ先輩

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If it takes 100 hours for a professional programmer to parse MV's base classes and methods, then that sounds like rather than needing a guide, it needs a rewrite.
 

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If it takes 100 hours for a professional programmer to parse MV's base classes and methods, then that sounds like rather than needing a guide, it needs a rewrite.


Serious question - how long do you think it should take an experienced programmer to fully commit the functionality of MV's code base to memory (remembering what properties and methods each class has, what they do in the sense of the game itself, and how they connect to each other)?  Not just to understand it, but to know things on-demand the same way you could have them in front of you on-demand with a guide?  I felt the 100 hours was a conservative estimate to get to that point, since MV's code base is large and very product-specific.
 

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Serious question - how long do you think it should take an experienced programmer to fully commit the functionality of MV's code base to memory (remembering what properties and methods each class has, what they do in the sense of the game itself, and how they connect to each other)?  Not just to understand it, but to know things on-demand the same way you could have them in front of you on-demand with a guide?  I felt the 100 hours was a conservative estimate to get to that point, since MV's code base is large and very product-specific.


I've been working on MV for 6 months now and I remember maybe 20% of the codebase at best. Couldn't give you a list of properties or methods beyond some intuitive ones like actors can change equips, actions can evaluate damage, etc.


Though I do know which scene is what, which window shows what information, and which classes map to what concepts in-game. Maybe. Not sure if I'd be able to recite all of them, but there's only maybe 15 significant classes, which is basically what you see in the database and the map editor.


Of course, this 20% understanding means that a lot of test cases slip out of my mind, or I'm completely unaware of.


I don't think a general reference would help me with those edge cases though, unless you're REALLY going in-depth with each and every method and how it may affect any other object.


But coding gotchas are always nice to have as a reference.
 
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Kaliya

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Serious question - how long do you think it should take an experienced programmer to fully commit the functionality of MV's code base to memory (remembering what properties and methods each class has, what they do in the sense of the game itself, and how they connect to each other)?  Not just to understand it, but to know things on-demand the same way you could have them in front of you on-demand with a guide?  I felt the 100 hours was a conservative estimate to get to that point, since MV's code base is large and very product-specific.
I personally know a good chunk, maybe 75%? Give or take. But I also work on MV itself as an engine on a day to day basis and actually modify code in functions that the average scripter even don't need to touch unless they plan on changing the engine as a whole. I'm also really good at remembering this sorta thing though.
 

ロリ先輩

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Serious question - how long do you think it should take an experienced programmer to fully commit the functionality of MV's code base to memory (remembering what properties and methods each class has, what they do in the sense of the game itself, and how they connect to each other)?  Not just to understand it, but to know things on-demand the same way you could have them in front of you on-demand with a guide?  I felt the 100 hours was a conservative estimate to get to that point, since MV's code base is large and very product-specific.
Honestly, I think the code is well written enough that it shouldn't take more than a few hours to scan through and see what classes and methods do what. The code is reasonably readable and member names aren't esoteric or obscure, assuming you're familiar with JS. Unless you plan to modify, override, or reimplement parts of RM on a frequent basis, there's a lot of code that you won't be concerned about. Admittedly, we could possibly escape the need for any reading of method contents by adding JSDoc. When you're consuming an API/Library, you really what to know what to out in a function and what will come out of it. A good chunk of the codebase builds upon itself with inheritance, so there's less to remember.


MV is very domain specific, but it's written in a way that there's a lot of code you don't have to be familiar with unless you're directly modifying it. A good portion of the code that makes use of Pixi, for example, would require you to know Pixi in addition. For most people making addons for RM games, that's going to be knowledge they may never need. Previous versions of RM made it less intimidating by hiding classes, especially the ones with native bindings. For the most part, it worked- you didn't have to really touch those.


Add in that there are pretty decent example scripts provided, there's even less of a need to get started with a general guide that an intro level coder would need.
 

astracat111

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Where I think the ABOSLUTE BEST place to start is by running a game, creating a map, placing your start position, playtesting, hitting F8, then in the console when it comes up simpley type a single dollar sign: 


$


You can then get a list of all of the global variables that make up rpg maker mv's engine.


Type something with a dot at the end and you can go even further:


$dataMap.


And there are all of the values that you need edit.


As a former beginner starting out on my own, I believe I can be of much help:


In programming, at least in game programming, one of the first concepts to learn is the main game loop concept, or like in html scripting the head then body concept. When first learning to program, I saw it like this:
 

Code:
Start - Code that will be executed once
Main Game Loop - Code that will be executed every single frame of your game


In html you have something similar but nothing loops

Code:
Header - Code that will be executed at the beginning, immediately upon execution of the webpage
Body - Code that will be executed secondly, when the body is loaded.
So with that in mind, AS A BEGINNER starting up working with RPG Maker MV, I would immediately just create a game, get netbeans to recognize the directory of your project so you can code and execute your game from netbeans, then create a new javascript file, name it your script name, put the necessary stuff at the top of it, and then work with the following:


var Test_Global_Value_Goes_Here; //You can then access this value in eventing from within rpg maker mv

//MAP START
var alias_prototype_startmapscene = Scene_Map.prototype.start;
Scene_Map.prototype.start = function() {
alias_prototype_startmapscene.call(this);

//Define Values Here
this.exampleValueOne = 0;
this.exampleValueTwo = 1;
this.exampleValueThree = 2;
};

//MAP LOOP
var alias_prototype_updatemapscene = Scene_Map.prototype.update;
Scene_Map.prototype.update = function() {
alias_prototype_updatemapscene.call(this); // call original metod

//Edit Values Here (this is every single frame of the scene. RPG Maker runs at 60fps, so it's 1/60th of a second per frame)
this.exampleValueOne += this.exampleValueTwo + this.exampleValueThree;
};


The code above will run on all maps of your game.


And then you can start messing with some variables right away. You can type in Netbeans "$gamePlayer." (with the dot) then wait for a list of values to mess around with to pop up. You can alternatively just playtest your game, hit F8 to bring up the console, and then in the console do the same thing, typing "$gamePlayer.", and this will bring up a whole bunch of values you can change. If that's not enough, you can in the console type out "$gamePlayer" and hit enter, then in the console when it displays the object click on the arrow to expand what the $gamePlayer object consists of. Study this. 


Then, you can type $dataMap in the console and repeat to see what that consists of. Some important values that I've found invaluable to my own work: 


$gamePlayer.property_goes_here


$gamePlayer._x - Tileset location X


$gamePlayer._y - Tileset location Y


$gamePlayer.screenX() - Actual X location of player object in pixels on the screen.


$gamePlayer.screenY() - Actual Y location of player object in pixels on the screen.


$gameVariables._data[x] - replace "x" with number of game variable to grab variable values from rpg maker editor. Remember that you can hit F9 in game.


$dataMap.events[x].property_goes_here - Replace x with event id and you can do all sorts of things to events by editing their properties.


Some other random things: You can check if an event has a note and act accordingly within the map loop like this:


if (String($dataMap.events[1].note) == 'cheeseburger') {

}


This would make it so that when an event with the id of 1 on your map says 'cheeseburger' in it's note section, you can run some kind of code. 


If you'd like to create sprites, you just make sure an image named something like "Pineapple.png" is in the img/pictures folder, then do the following code: 


//Put this code wihtin map.prototype.start function:
this.Pineapple = new Sprite();
this.Pineapple.bitmap = ImageManager.loadPicture('Pineapple');
this.Pineapple.visible = true;
this.Pineapple.x = 400;
this.Pineapple.y = 300;
this.addChild(this.Pineapple);


The above will display your Pineapple.png picture that you put in your pictures folder on screen somewhere towards the center or so.


And then you can manipulate your picture from your Map Loop like this: 


//Put this code in your map.prototype.update function:
this.Pineapple.x += 1;


And this will move your Pineapple off of the screen from left to right.


The next tip I would give people is to create timers. You can do this with the following logic: 


//Put this in the above space to define a global variable:
var GameTimer;

//Put in Map Start:
GameTimer = 300;

//Put this in Map Update:
GameTimer -= 1;

//And then in Map Update you can create conditionals:
if (GameTimer == 0) { //Do something when timer runs out }

//You can even go into the rpg maker editor then, create an event, create an event command "Conditional Branch", then under the 4th tab of the window that //pops up click the "Script:" bubble and type in:
GameTimer == 0

//And then you can have whatever you'd like easily happen from RPG Maker MV with event commands.




Using every tip that I've given here you'll be well on your way to understanding how rpg maker mv works. It's not really a traditional study, but it'll get you manipulating your game from your console on the first day so you'll keep at it because it's all downhill. Enterbrain has been extremely lenient with rpg maker mv, even giving us access to it's core code for only something like $70, which is insanely generous if you ask me. 


Rpg maker mv is like a perfect blending of javascript with traditional click and point rpg maker creation of games. I've been creating a mini-game driven game, and creating the mini-games almost all with just eventing, but I will use javascript for some global variables like "MouseX" and "MouseY" so I can have the user use a mouse cursor to shoot and stuff like that. 


It really is the best rpg maker so far, it can just be buggy to a degree.


Most importantly: 


MAKE SURE TO LEARN ALIASING. Do NOT edit the original code of the rpg maker mv .js files EVER. If you are making a bigger game in particular you will shoot yourself in the foot by doing this.


Also then, you can use this handy dandy guide to have more variables to mess around with and manipulate graphics and game mechanics on screen with:


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Oa0cRGpjC8L5JO8vdMwOaYMKO75dtfKDOetnvh7OHs/edit#gid=0


And then what I would do is just watch some learning javascript rpg maker mv tutorials on youtube for a week or so on 2x speed, and slow it down when something interesting pops up. You'll learn in no time.


Some other concepts to be aware of:


Classes have hierarchies, and do not all run at the same time but one at a time like so:


Scene_Boot > Scene_Base > Scene_Map


To get my cursor to work, I had to create it in Scene_Map instead of Scene_Base. When I was creating it and putting my HUD in Scene_Map, my cursor graphic actually hid BEHIND the HUD. D:


Game objects also have their own hierarchy. 


Character_Character becomes > Game_Player OR Game_Event Game_Vehicle or whatever.



You don't need a guide to learn in that sense, just combine it with what I've posted and youtube tutorials and you'll be fine as long as you are into scripting.
 
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ロリ先輩

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@astracat111 I think you may have glossed over the point. The whole thread so far isn't on the basis of "Hey, MV is hard to learn", but rather, "MV is hard to navigate and extract information from." It's one thing to be manipulating visible console data or visible map data, it's another to extend or reimplement the code. My understanding is that, the problem that @Wavelength is finding is a lack of a guide to the API (although, admittedly, we don't have particularly comprehensive API documentation either). To clarify, when I'm referring to API docs, I'm talking something like this (lodash).Less of "this is how you script in RM", but more of "This is what the existing code in RM does". Not a guide on how to script in RM, but a guide to what exactly RM classes do.

Edit: Manually tinkering with moving parts isn't what I'd recommend. Sure, you'll learn something, but it's a lot slower than JSDoc/API docs.
Edit 2: From the gist of the replies, some level of programming ability/competence is assumed.
 
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astracat111

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@astracat111 I think you may have glossed over the point. The whole thread so far isn't on the basis of "Hey, MV is hard to learn", but rather, "MV is hard to navigate and extract information from." It's one thing to be manipulating visible console data or visible map data, it's another to extend or reimplement the code. My understanding is that, the problem that @Wavelength is finding is a lack of a guide to the API (although, admittedly, we don't have particularly comprehensive API documentation either). To clarify, when I'm referring to API docs, I'm talking something like this (lodash).Less of "this is how you script in RM", but more of "This is what the existing code in RM does". Not a guide on how to script in RM, but a guide to what exactly RM classes do.

Edit: Manually tinkering with moving parts isn't what I'd recommend. Sure, you'll learn something, but it's a lot slower than JSDoc/API docs.
Edit 2: From the gist of the replies, some level of programming ability/competence is assumed.


Hmmm...Well I think you could have like a mix of learning both ways...I'm an amateur coder myself so I by no means don't have trouble with completely understanding it, but I'm starting to, and I'm having a lot of fun with it figuring that javascript is just so much more versatile a platform than ruby which felt much more restricted.


There are more tutorials and guides on youtube explaining how the classes and everything work for rpg maker vx ace though I think, and it's a good place to start because it's generally the same engine written for javascript with mv with most of the same or similar class names.


I would have to respectfully disagree with you on one point, though. For a beginner I think delving right in and tinkering with the moving parts is the thing to do, although I also realize that the basics are extremely important and are required for intermediate-advanced coding. I really haven't myself, though, had to really go and create complex scripts for rpg maker mv in javascript...I feel like I would just move on to unity or game maker if I wanted to get more advanced, so there hasn't really been a point. Also, there are tons of scripts that cover almost everything one could think of at the moment.


Maybe with what you're suggesting it would just be better to take some online javascript tutorials/guides/courses, that would really supercharge one for working with mv. From an experienced coders perspective, rpg maker mv isn't all that complex to need api documentation. I know of a coder from Italy I had been speaking to over skype for a while and commissioned to work on the c++ launcher we created for rpg maker vx ace. Looking over the code he figured it out pretty instantly, but then again the guy was a crazy hacker and was experienced in cracking games open and advanced modding and everything.
 
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ロリ先輩

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@astracat111 If we're going with the topic of the thread, it's safe to make an assumption that the individuals using the guide would have a grasp of JavaScript, and OOP, and probably web development, but not necessarily theoretical design knowledge, like complexity (i.e. Big O) or data structures, so dropping down to the console to play with game variables isn't necessarily productive or in the scope of a topic on class guide/API doc, that's why most of the previous points don't bring in a console based method of learning- also, because it's time consuming. @Wavelength defines the scope of the post very well in the OP:

In my opinion one of the hardest parts of scripting for RPG Maker isn't the syntax or the logic behind it, but rather understanding what RPG Maker's base scripts are doing and what methods it uses to produce certain behavior.  While MV's code seems fairly well-written and searchable, the sheer quantity of different methods that it bounces between, and the sparse commenting, make understanding the game's behavior a painful guess-and-check process and until we've spent hundreds of hours working around the different parts of the code base, it can be difficult to make changes that are really simple from a pure JavaScript standpoint, largely like trying to edit someone else's plugin.


As well as in replies:

Sure, anyone with programming knowledge can search for a keyword, find an appropriate method, look through the code, search out the entire chain of methods, read each one to understand what it's doing, and do trial-and-error Find Alls to look for the class variables that were set somewhere else by a mostly-unrelated method - and it will be a good learning experience.  That's mostly how I've done it, to this point.  But this can require hours, even to make a small change, and tends to lead to fragmented (if deep) knowledge of the system.

So discussing beginners, or necessarily, someone with little experience in either JS or OOP, is outside of the scope of the topic. 

More over, I do agree that we don't really need a guide, however JSDoc (think of something similar to JavaDoc, DoxyGen) would certainly be appreciated (especially since Visual Studio Code and other editors can pick up on it). The MV executable itself isn't too hard to think about- it's just a modified variant of nw.js, compared to a custom/proprietary executable/engine in previous RPG Makers. On top of that, most of the base code is built on top of open source dependencies, like pixi, fpsmeter and lz-string- hardly something that requires hacking knowledge.

Basic documentation, using JSDoc, is useful- it tells you what's being done by a particular method or class, but not how it's being done. Unless you're reimplementing or extending a method or class, what is more important than how. Even then, knowing what comes into a black box, what leaves, and what's supposed to be done, is more that enough to recreate the black box in the case of methods (a little harder for classes, as we know from RGSS hidden classes/native bindings). That's generally the same with most libraries and dependencies, though. You don't need to know how methods in jQuery, Zepto, or lodash work- you need to know what they do. The RPG Maker MV API is fairly complex- however, it's sane. The class names and member names are well chosen and make sense, which greatly increases readability- the only major detractor is if someone lacks an understanding of JavaScript (JavaScript does a few things very different from other OOP languages, in part to lacking a comprehensive standard library and having first class functions). I work very frequently with just JavaScript and Ruby, and if you're coming from the latter, I can see why MV might get you lost, with Ruby being significantly more readable, and JavaScript taking more cues from Java and C.
 

astracat111

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So are you saying that there doesn't really have to be a guide in that case? From what I'm reading of what you're saying, and from what I understand myself, I would say that there really doesn't have to be more than there already is. I really think that if one doesn't know classes than it's better to go on youtube and just follow a series of javascript tutorials and w3schools guides or something and learn. The point I'm always generally trying to make, is that rpg maker mv is the most exciting one to date, as we have access to the core engine, and with html5 it's deployable on so many platforms.


If one can't find a good guide on how rpg maker mv is put together, there are tons of rpg maker vx ace ones about it's classes and how they're laid out. They really couldn't have written it any more organized and simply than it already is.


Sorry, don't have time for a longer reply at the moment...
 
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Helladen

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Seems like MV just needs a proper debugger that displays everything rather than a console. Writing that would probably be easier than learning everything from scratch. Most modern IDEs have more than a basic console, you have an attached process that interprets what's going on and it allows you to actually watch lines of code - see how the code moves. Having a guide will not solve this, it is a problem with the engine lacking features.


Javascript is not great for making big games with, I don't know how forum software companies can really manage all these javascript files. It has got to be hell like no other. Having to debug everything in a browser, that's gotta suck.
 
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Kaliya

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Seems like MV just needs a proper debugger that displays everything rather than a console. Writing that would probably be easier than learning everything from scratch. Most modern IDEs have more than a basic console, you have an attached process that interprets what's going on and it allows you to actually watch lines of code - see how the code moves. Having a guide will not solve this, it is a problem with the engine lacking features.


Javascript is not great for making big games with, I don't know how forum software companies can really manage all these javascript files. It has got to be hell like no other. Having to debug everything in a browser, that's gotta suck.
There is no way in hell we'd ever consider doing this since: https://developer.chrome.com/devtools/docs/javascript-debugging


Just saying.
 
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Helladen

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There is no way in hell we'd ever consider doing this since: https://developer.chrome.com/devtools/docs/javascript-debugging


Just saying.


Not saying to replace the JS debugger, I was saying to implement code in the base scripts which make use of the debugger - or write a plugin which enables this. I am spoiled with Visual Studio and fancy IDE features, I wasn't saying it was worth replacing entirely, I am just going a little off-topic on the matter showing the weakness of JS.
 
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I don't quite understand what you are asking, or saying even. Javascript isn't compiled, it is interpreted line by line when that script is called, or a section of the script is called. Unlike languages that Visual Studio is used for (C#,VB,etc) which are compiled. This isn't a weakness of JS but a strength in some sense since you, the developer do not need to sit there and wait for JS to be compiled whenever you make a change, and you are able to make changes in real time. What kind of "features" are you even talking about that the Chromium JS Debugger can not already do that MV would need to implement?
 
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Helladen

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What kind of "features" are you even talking about that the Chromium JS Debugger can not already do that MV would need to implement?


A visual display of game objects in use, for example console.log is used to write out code you want to debug. Maybe add lines like this in the base script for certain important parts and have an option to turn a debug mode on to enable/disable these. Basically, the JS code just needs a proper debugger display. If you look at Invision Power Board, it has a debug mode despite being in JS too. It has a lot of information for developers to make use of it in this, I have developed plugins for it.
 
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A visual display of game objects in use, for example console.log is used to write out code you want to debug. Maybe add lines like this in the base script for certain important parts and have an option to turn a debug mode on to enable/disable these. Basically, the JS code just needs a proper debugger display. If you look at Invision Power Board, it has a debug mode despite being in JS too. It has a lot of information for developers to make use of it in this, I have developed plugins for it.
That's not a fair comparison. It makes sense for IPB to have debugging, since only a portion of its code is in JS- the rest lives on the server as PHP/SQL. We don't have that kind of polyglot problem in RM.

The debugging capability you're interested in isn't something we should necessarily add to RM. It's pretty useful, but there's a reason why we don't have JavaScript tools that already include such functionality. Even JetBrains, which probably has some of the best debugging tools in term of Java/Ruby/C++...etc, only has a debugger/developer console in WebStorm pretty much functionally similar to the Chromium DevTools. The tools are there in ECMAScript- reflection is supported. 

As @Liquidize already pointed out, JS isn't a compiled language. We can try things out, check them in runtime, and make changes and do it again. Unless you're transpiling code, making changes is trivial and quick, like C++ and Java (hence debugging being very important there).
 

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The debugging capability you're interested in isn't something we should necessarily add to RM. It's pretty useful, but there's a reason why we don't have JavaScript tools that already include such functionality. Even JetBrains, which probably has some of the best debugging tools in term of Java/Ruby/C++...etc, only has a debugger/developer console in WebStorm pretty much functionally similar to the Chromium DevTools. The tools are there in ECMAScript- reflection is supported. 


The debugger in Invision Power Board is not useful for SQL at all. SQL is handled via PHPMyAdmin and other SQL tools. It is useful because they have a SDK and way about coding. When you create a game engine with a base script, you got to have a SDK or something to give developers information or else you got no standards. Basically, means that I might as well code my own Javascript engine. ;)
 
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Just beat the last of us 2 last night and starting jedi: fallen order right now, both use unreal engine & when I say i knew 80% of jedi's buttons right away because they were the same buttons as TLOU2 its ridiculous, even the same narrow hallway crawl and barely-made-it jump they do. Unreal Engine is just big budget RPG Maker the way they make games nearly identical at its core lol.
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