Not enough for them to care enough, apparently. On their own forums it was like six clients in a single thread? Out of thousands of clients. If there was a real demand for BBCode source editing, it'd be done. It doesn't matter if we have 50 people on our site that want it, or 80,000. We're one forum and one client of theirs that only pays them a couple hundreds dollars (or so) over the course of the year. If it's not something the masses are asking for, well... There's no incentive for them to sway away from how their trying to re-envision their software.
I think the biggest thing is that we're a really niche community that could really benefit from BBcode source editing. We're not "just" a discussion forum. So we're one client of how many that might have a legit reason to keep bbcode source editing? How many other communities have even noticed or cared it's gone?
There's also the fact that most people don't like change and will kick up a storm about every little thing and cry "change it back!"
I'm not trying to justify them trying to kill it. I would like it back so that at the very least, people stop complaining about it here...
Plus I want you all to be happy while using the site. I'm just relaying information/responses I've seen from them in the past about the subject and trying to see it from their perspective.
I found one single thread about the issue while doing a quick search, and it was only a few community owners requesting it back and being met with essentially a "no".
Maybe you should start a tread on what we get as advantages in V4 compared to V3 vs What we lost in V4 compared to V3.
Or even a poll on who's happy and not on the V3 to V4 conversion (and ask for a reason why).
I am sure even with the beginner votes, you will find most users find V3 being more superior over V4. So instead of upgrading, this looks more like a downgrade. Especially the unwillingness to fix minor bugs is a big downfall. That's no way to do a business. And you can already imagine what sort of support you will be getting in long term. So no, i am not going support doing business with them so i am going to say NO to this new V4 just because of that.
As far as i can tell, V4 is hard to use and a lot of those quick shortcuts used to be there in V3 are bugged in V4 (still here, but bugged or require extra few steps to use). eg, highlight text and hit the code button in V3 turn it into a code mode directly. In V4 it tries to open up that window, auto paste the code you highlighted in it, and ask you to hit the insert button. 3 steps against 1. Remember, this is a site for game developers, and most are used to UI designing. If something that can be done in 1 step needs 3-4 steps to complete, it's not a "user friendly" design. So it's weird for a game developer not complaining about it.
wysiwyg is great for beginners. which apparently is 95%+ of any communities out there. But they are also those that didn't post much, so not much of a chance of them running into any bugs or problem. But the rest of those small % are forum veterans that post a lot, and this isn't the only forum they are using. BB Source code has always been there and share most of the same traits in other forums, it's something a veteran get used to. So reposting a post from another site is as easy as copy paste. wysiwyg don't share that concept. While "press a button on the top of the editor" might seems fast for some, the veterans with their own post format will prefer a quick "ctrl + v" to do the trick.
I don't mind wysiwyg editor as long as it reads and converts the bb source code as well like most other sites do. But this one here ignores the typed in codes.
If it can do smileys it can do bb codes too, your devs from where you bought this software are just lazy to include that option.
I'm assuming you mean make a thread on the Invision forums, right? Otherwise, I don't see a point for a thread here, it would just turn into yet another thread for people to complain even more about changes. It's not like I could really do anything about everyone's little gripes with the upgrade other than offer to change to a completely different software and then things would really be different and certain things would be lost (more on that below). Which would lead to more complaining. It also wasn't efficient to continue to use software that is losing it's support soon, where the development cycle has literally ended except for critical security issues.
I am sure even with the beginner votes, you will find most users find V3 being more superior over V4. So instead of upgrading, this looks more like a downgrade. Especially the unwillingness to fix minor bugs is a big downfall. That's no way to do a business. And you can already imagine what sort of support you will be getting in long term. So no, i am not going support doing business with them so i am going to say NO to this new V4 just because of that.
I respectfully disagree. I think people are used to V3, but I think V4, backend and front end is vastly superior. V3 was clunky as heck. If there wasn't the bugs (which have always been fixed when I report them) and there was the option to have BBCode source editing, I'd find it perfect.
I'm not sure where you're getting the "unwillingness to fix minor bugs". When have I said they were unwilling to fix minor bugs? Add the source button for BBCode back isn't a "minor fix" due to the way they wrote the software, apparently. And it's not a minor bug either. IPS support has always been fantastic for us. Last year Ryan Ashbrook was up in the late hours of the night helping me fix something specific to our forum. So I'm not worried about support. This whole bit of your post is rather confusing.
As far as i can tell, V4 is hard to use and a lot of those quick shortcuts used to be there in V3 are bugged in V4 (still here, but bugged or require extra few steps to use).
Bugged shortcuts such as? What things require a few extra steps that aren't BBcode related?
wysiwyg is great for beginners. which apparently is 95%+ of any communities out there. But they are also those that didn't post much, so not much of a chance of them running into any bugs or problem. But the rest of those small % are forum veterans that post a lot, and this isn't the only forum they are using. BB Source code has always been there and share most of the same traits in other forums, it's something a veteran get used to. So reposting a post from another site is as easy as copy paste. wysiwyg don't share that concept. While "press a button on the top of the editor" might seems fast for some, the veterans with their own post format will prefer a quick "ctrl + v" to do the trick.
I've got nothing to disagree with this. For the record, I think it's insane for them to get rid of the BBcode source button. I'm on your side with this and I think it was a poor move. I'm just relaying the information I found/have been told. Don't shoot the messenger eh?
I don't mind wysiwyg editor as long as it reads and converts the bb source code as well like most other sites do. But this one here ignores the typed in codes.
If it can do smileys it can do bb codes too, your devs from where you bought this software are just lazy to include that option.
Ignores the typed in codes? How? BBcode still works here, it just doesn't show up live in the editor (which is unforuntate).
Here's a manually typed code block:
Code:
the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog
A manually typed spoiler:
Spoiler
James killed Mary.
There's no "going back" to V3. It was reaching end of support and was no longer getting upgrades.
The other option was Xenforo, which is an amazing forum package. Several forums I've visited over the past decade have migrated from vBulletin and Invision to Xenforo and for good reason. Initially, I wanted to use it for this community in the first place, but we opted for Invison Power Board because of it's usage on other RPG Maker forums at the time. With that though, we would lose features a lot of people like such as status updates (pretty sure they don't exist, but I asked them anyway), etc... But things would be a lot faster and more stable, would be more modern, still have BBcode source editing, etc... Basically, get rid of the more gimmicky features (as far as I know) like Status Updates (which honestly always felt out of place for a forum software, honestly) and focus on a really tight, fast, and stable forum package. If it were up to me, we wouldn't even be using this software in the first place
I say again, if you are unhappy about the BBcode, take it to Invision. I don't say that to write off your complaints. They're valid complaints. I'm just not the one that can address them directly, they are. If enough people cause up a fuss about it, maybe they'll take it seriously and re-integrate it. Complaining to me only makes it so I can tell them "we've had 150 members complain about the lack of functionality" and they don't actually see the complaints first hand. I'm just one guy supposedly relaying complaints. If you go to THEM though... Then they have to see it. Get what I'm saying?
I think the software's good. I think there's a lot of upgrades over it. I think that there's issues that need to be fixed, and I think BBcode source editing should come back. Do I think V4 is a downgrade? No. That would be insane to say, as it isn't at least on the tech side of things and security-wise. Downgrade in terms of the editor? Sure. But take it to them, seriously. They're the ones that can do anything about it.
The only other thing I can really think of is to completely change the software to Xenforo. Then things will be lost/change completely, although it's a better forum suite in my opinion. It's faster, has BBcode editing... I just really enjoy it. But it's a different beast and I could see a LOT of people being upset things work differently and status updates are gone etc.... Xenforo is more for... well, forums. IPS is more for communities. Bleh.
I would be ecstatic to change to Xenforo, even if I had to personally write my own status update plugin for it. But it might not be in the communities favor, because well... it's different.
It was time to upgrade either way on our end, and rather than change to a completely different software and lose certain things people have gotten used to, I figured I would just upgrade the suite and stick with the same software just go the next version up. There isn't an easy solution that makes everyone happy.
So with that said, migrating to Xenforo is not out of the question (in my book) if this is something the community would be interested in. If, Xenforo doesn't have Status Updates, I ask this...
Would you be willing to trade off Status Updates in exchange for BBcode source editing and a faster forum?
Update: Looks like Xenforo does have Status Updates. So there wouldn't really be anything "missing" core functionaltiy wise that we're used to. Might not be as elaborate as IPS 4's status updates though. That's not really a bad thing either though... since already some people are breaking the rules and treating the more extensive updates as a replacement for forum posts... Hmm.
@Nathanial : We should make a poll for the status updates. Are they really mandatory ? Personally, I would largely prefer a good BBCode Editor rather than status updates.
Well, like I said, status updates are in Xenforo. They're 140 characters or less though. I want to talk to the other staff first before making a poll about it. I also want to give it at least a couple of months before doing any drastic changes again.
Hm well may we have to start a topic there OR you go back from them (to another "Better"-Forums-Software). I mean they lose customers if they give a <3 on them.
There are many good Systems on the Web, the most of them have BB-Code (atm I only know IPS without) and Developers, that hear on their customers/cummunity.
There are many good paid Systems and some free Systems that are wonderfull. So why not change?
Yes I know its complicated to change a system =/ Especially if you have a such big forum like this. But we all can benefit from it =)
First I think we have to create a Topic on their Forums (but I don't think that they bring BB-Code back, they are to lazy and crazy on that web 2.1 <3)
Hm well may we have to start a topic there OR you go back from them (to another "Better"-Forums-Software). I mean they lose customers if they give a <3 on them.
There are many good Systems on the Web, the most of them have BB-Code (atm I only know IPS without) and Developers, that hear on their customers/cummunity.
There are many good paid Systems and some free Systems that are wonderfull. So why not change?
Yes I know its complicated to change a system =/ Especially if you have a such big forum like this. But we all can benefit from it =)
First I think we have to create a Topic on their Forums (but I don't think that they bring BB-Code back, they are to lazy and crazy on that web 2.1 <3)
I'm on the fence about personally shelling out the $140 for Xenforo to do a test migration and see how it goes... Then skin it and then get user feedback. Touchfuzzy and I talked and we don't want to force another migration really soon after we just upgraded. We don't want it to be two huge changes back-to-back. Unless IPS v4 is so universally despised and everyone wants to move on.
If I decide to buy a license out of pocket, I'll link the test board and let you give feedback...
They support converting from IPS 4. That's why I would do test migrations etc. I know it's a whole new system, and I know a lot can go wrong. Or go fine. The only way to know is to personally shell out the bucks and try it. Unless someone here has a Xenforo license they're willing to lend me for a few hours (or sell me, I guess).
The promised few days have passed but the bugs are still there.
Really, a half-baked new software vs stable old software, i'll choose the stable old version until the new version is actually usable.
As you can see from your bug tracker, some repeated reports are starting to show up as more and more users run into those problems. Which is a good sign, since old similar issue reports are idle and no new updates on them.
Isn't there a way to revert to the stable V3 until these major issues in V4 are fixed? Have it separated as a beta version for whoever that has the time to test it?
Since this is a third-party software and you guys need to wait for their replies to be able to fix stuffs, a direct implementation without beta testing is never a wise act.
Messed up posts + unable to edit is not a "minor bug" but something considered "major".
Would really like to know the updates and a real date-line of the patch for these bugs.
I will answer to a Topic there, may you can help. The more you complain the more they know, that this is a mess but you can't complain here on rpgmakerweb, because ITS 3rd party Software...
Here are some topics that may interesst you (About BB-Code)
Not enough for them to care enough, apparently. On their own forums it was like six clients in a single thread? Out of thousands of clients. If there was a real demand for BBCode source editing, it'd be done. It doesn't matter if we have 50 people on our site that want it, or 80,000. We're one forum and one client of theirs that only pays them a couple hundreds dollars (or so) over the course of the year. If it's not something the masses are asking for, well... There's no incentive for them to sway away from how their trying to re-envision their software.
I think the biggest thing is that we're a really niche community that could really benefit from BBcode source editing. We're not "just" a discussion forum. So we're one client of how many that might have a legit reason to keep bbcode source editing? How many other communities have even noticed or cared it's gone?
There's also the fact that most people don't like change and will kick up a storm about every little thing and cry "change it back!"
I'm not trying to justify them trying to kill it. I would like it back so that at the very least, people stop complaining about it here...
Plus I want you all to be happy while using the site. I'm just relaying information/responses I've seen from them in the past about the subject and trying to see it from their perspective.
I found one single thread about the issue while doing a quick search, and it was only a few community owners requesting it back and being met with essentially a "no".
Thanks, but I already dropped the money to buy a license and have been working on a test import to Xenforo. Working on a theme right now, then I'll show it to staff to look at further and probably bring in some members to test privately and get their feedback.
I'm listening to complaints, and I'm trying to find a solution, even if it means moving away from IPS. Even if it means I pay out of pocket for the license to do tests with. I'm trying my best here. I wish people would stop acting like they know more than they do, actually understand solutions are being worked on (I'm sorry that editing your signature isn't a priority issue, that other internal things are), and understand the situation I'm in, and the months of time I had already spent with the software. You can't expect a database as big as ours to migrate 100% successfully without some problems. And most of them are problems I would never know about unless I was logging into your account and trying to edit your signature or your posts. Hmmmm.
Regardless, what's important is that those problems are addressed, and they will be.
Thanks, I am trying not to touch my signature until I am sure not to break anything anymore! XD
And yeah I still have pages of notifications to realize if they are read or not (I am still lost but I do remember I started lost in V3, and when I started to be adapted well V4 stroke, so no real news for me). So no worries.
I have tested using a youtube link, and I think for it to work, you have to use the original youtube link for it to work (youtube.com/watch...). It seems the other options (youtu.be, youtube embed) doesn't work.
so hopefully tomorrow i get to go home from the hospital i've been here for 5 days already and it's driving me mad. I miss my family like crazy but at least I get to use my own toiletries and my own clothes. My mom is coming to visit soon i can't wait to see her cause i miss her the most.
Cartoonier cloud cover that better fits the art style, as well as (slightly) improved blending/fading... fading clouds when there are larger patterns is still somewhat abrupt for some reason.
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