What are your opinions on metafiction?

[TheGamedawg]

I don't know why, but I've been really fascinated with metafiction recently. For those of you who don't know, it when a piece refers to it's own existence and becomes self-conscious of the fact that it's a work of fiction, usually as either a parody or for shock value. There's a lot more to it than that though. In fact, it's actually pretty hard to explain. Here's a Wikipedia article explaining it as well as a list of examples.


Some really popular examples would be Undertale, Animal Man, Pony Island and The Stanley Parable. It's a really interesting idea for storytelling and I was wondering what you guys think of it.  Are some of your using it in your games?

 

[Canini]

Personally I am a big fan. However, it is very easy to screw up. Undertale and Animal Man does it right by


1 having something to say


2 not taking themselves too serious

 

[Isaac The Red]

I'm ok with metafiction, Self aware characters, or player/viewer/reader referencing points, but it's got to be done right as to not seem forced or out of place. 

 

[atasuke10]

I'm ok with metafiction, Self aware characters, or player/viewer/reader referencing points, but it's got to be done right as to not seem forced or out of place. 

you're scaring me  (I want to do something like that)

I love them though, they put immersion on a whole different level if done right

 

[Isaac The Red]

you're scaring me  (I want to do something like that)

How am I scaring you? *Confuzzled*

 

[atasuke10]

How am I scaring you? *Confuzzled*

"It's got to be done right" <- *realizes has no idea how to do it right* i just went by gut feeling on how to do it so far really xd thats why

 

[Isaac The Red]

LOL, oh yea, does make it seem a little more pressured, by "done right" I'm really talking about the scope and focus of the game. Take Deadpool as an example, the comics and games, and even his presense in animations... Is never really taken too seriously. The Deadpool game itself is a fun romp, and is treated as nothing more than that, making constant self references and jabs at the player throughout. Setting up the tone right from the start so that besides the fact that it's deadpool and him being known for breaking the 4th wall,


If your story is stock serious from the get go and then sudenly for no reason something or someone breaks the 4th wall, it will feel really out of place to the player. Though even in a more serious game setting, Taking the Metal Gear franchise as an example, the world setting itself can break the fourth wall, with the world having little bits of self referencial peices, like other kojima games being present without MGS, notably policenaughts as a poster and small video clip in the scene with Otacon.


Or the presense of the PS1 or Game cube in the respective versions of the 1st MGS title. and its game cube remake. To further self referential nots such as the metal gear rex and jehuty cameos in MGS3. None of these kind of references are highlighted by the game itself, but their presence is still there and can be a fun bit of a easter egg hunt.

 

[atasuke10]

LOL, oh yea, does make it seem a little more pressured, by "done right" I'm really talking about the scope and focus of the game. Take Deadpool as an example, the comics and games, and even his presense in animations... Is never really taken too seriously. The Deadpool game itself is a fun romp, and is treated as nothing more than that, making constant self references and jabs at the player throughout. Setting up the tone right from the start so that besides the fact that it's deadpool and him being known for breaking the 4th wall,


If your story is stock serious from the get go and then sudenly for no reason something or someone breaks the 4th wall, it will feel really out of place to the player. Though even in a more serious game setting, Taking the Metal Gear franchise as an example, the world setting itself can break the fourth wall, with the world having little bits of self referencial peices, like other kojima games being present without MGS, notably policenaughts as a poster and small video clip in the scene with Otacon.


Or the presense of the PS1 or Game cube in the respective versions of the 1st MGS title. and its game cube remake. To further self referential nots such as the metal gear rex and jehuty cameos in MGS3. None of these kind of references are highlighted by the game itself, but their presence is still there and can be a fun bit of a easter egg hunt.

what about the player treated as an entity of their own? I've actually played a few serious games with that aspect. Undertale sure had the humor but (SPOILER ALERT) on genocide the player was treated as a serious psychopath . Also this game called OneShot I think, it had a pretty serious (even if it was adorable) tone to it. But i guess thats what you're saying, it has to be part of it by standard and not just in the players face all of a sudden. 

I'm thinking hard about this cuz i want to introduce the player as an entity in the current game im making that foreshadows the next game where the player does have a major role, so for players who all of a sudden get faceblasted with "Oh yeah you re part of this" i guess that might turn them off?

 

[Isaac The Red]

I've played neither of those games, and can say I don't really see the appeal of undertale, so i can't comment from that perspective, but yes, I'm essentialy coming from the point that its got to be either an established part of the fiction, or subtle enough that it doesn't detract from a more serious experience if that is what's intended. It has to feel like it belongs.


Like duke nukems jabs at the player for taking too long without doing anything, or sonic jumping off the screen if you don't do anything, both of these fit their characters, Master cheif from halo, if just out of nowhere he was just "fk it, peace im out" because the player didn't move the controller for too long it would be really jarring because we dont expect it of the character, and the series has set no precedent of self awareness before. it would be out of place.


I'm not exactly a literary master or anything, and I can't claim to be perfect at pointout what a good bit of meta is vs a bad bit of meta, so i'm really just using examples that I feel used the medium properly and felt right. ._.

 

[atasuke10]

I've played neither of those games, and can say I don't really see the appeal of undertale, so i can't comment from that perspective, but yes, I'm essentialy coming from the point that its got to be either an established part of the fiction, or subtle enough that it doesn't detract from a more serious experience if that is what's intended. It has to feel like it belongs.


Like duke nukems jabs at the player for taking too long without doing anything, or sonic jumping off the screen if you don't do anything, both of these fit their characters, Master cheif from halo, if just out of nowhere he was just "fk it, peace im out" because the player didn't move the controller for too long it would be really jarring because we dont expect it of the character, and the series has set no precedent of self awareness before. it would be out of place.


I'm not exactly a literary master or anything, and I can't claim to be perfect at pointout what a good bit of meta is vs a bad bit of meta, so i'm really just using examples that I feel used the medium properly and felt right. ._.

No its fine, in games' case, feelings are everything so based on how those were made you can get a decent idea on what "feels" right in terms of fourth wall breaking. so its still a good path to follow to rely on experiences like that imo  

 

[trouble time]

IMO, the more subtle the metafiction the better.


Here's a few things to remeber about metafiction though


1. it doesn't give your story depth


2. it doesn't make your story interesting


3. it doesn't make your story unique.


4. All of the above comes down to execution, not the presence of metafiction.

 

[Andar]

It's also called "breaking the fourth wall", and it has a lot of disadvantages to storytelling in general, where it is considered to be a bad technique.


As said above, it can only work under very special circumstances like being a parody or a number of very specific settings trying to involve the reader into the story.


And as also said it is very easy to do in a bad way...


If you aren't a very good writer and know exactly what you're doing, you shouldn't even try it.

 

[atasuke10]

It's also called "breaking the fourth wall", and it has a lot of disadvantages to storytelling in general, where it is considered to be a bad technique.


As said above, it can only work under very special circumstances like being a parody or a number of very specific settings trying to involve the reader into the story.


And as also said it is very easy to do in a bad way...


If you aren't a very good writer and know exactly what you're doing, you shouldn't even try it.

I actually see it in more and more games and more tv series as well and honestly it doesn't surprise me or alienate me even if its done bad, maybe its just me but even when its cringe i can have more fun knowing the series/game acknowledges my existence in its own way.
But I'm curious what you mean by very specific settings and what disadvantages does it bring? 

 

[trouble time]

I also want to mention that breaking the 4th wall is only one kind of metafiction, there are many other kinds of metafiction, one everyone knows for example is dramatic irony or knowing things about the story the characters don't know and how that affects the story. There is also the metafiction of playing with audience expectations, even though I don't like it much, this is what puella magi madoka magica did/ attempted to do (I don't think it succeded very well but this is mainly based on my dislike for the show, because I feel the expectations it plays on are false expectations of people not familiar with a wide variety of magical girl shows. and the first few episodes break the illusion from the first scene.) 

 

[Andar]

@atasuke10


the main disadvantage is that may break immersion if done poorly and makes the story inside that setting very often worse. Just imagine Gandalf asking the viewer in Lord of the Rings - it simply doesn't fit into such stories.


The exception is if the story itself either is a parody, or a multimedial one set in the real world (let the reader check other parts on the internet), or if it is set in a multidimensional background where the author pretends that the real world is connected to that world somehow.

 

[atasuke10]

@atasuke10


the main disadvantage is that may break immersion if done poorly and makes the story inside that setting very often worse. Just imagine Gandalf asking the viewer in Lord of the Rings - it simply doesn't fit into such stories.


The exception is if the story itself either is a parody, or a multimedial one set in the real world (let the reader check other parts on the internet), or if it is set in a multidimensional background where the author pretends that the real world is connected to that world somehow.

I'm going with the multidimensional one actually, it'd cut the endings' throat if i had to modify them that's why have to make it as good as it can be

 

[Isaac The Red]

One of my favorite bits of metafiction I would have to be from White Knight Chronicles, as you are in the game from the outset, but not a part of the story so much as a random extra dragged along for the ride. With the other characters really only subtly acknowledging your existence with little more than an occasional nod.

 

[atasuke10]

One of my favorite bits of metafiction I would have to be from White Knight Chronicles, as you are in the game from the outset, but not a part of the story so much as a random extra dragged along for the ride. With the other characters really only subtly acknowledging your existence with little more than an occasional nod.

mine is OneShot, the MC is just the most adorable thing and always talks with you

 

[Canini]

One of my favorite bits of metafiction I would have to be from White Knight Chronicles, as you are in the game from the outset, but not a part of the story so much as a random extra dragged along for the ride. With the other characters really only subtly acknowledging your existence with little more than an occasional nod.

That sounds awesome! I wish more games were brave enough to cast the main character in such a role. In my opinion, following a hero is equally interesting to being one.

 

[Isaac The Red]

@Canini That's just it, your character in WKC isn't the main character. Lol