What Are Your Thoughts ---> Christian-Based Gaming (pictures included)

[Runako]

As I'm working currently on a Christian-Based RPG for RPG maker MV,

Spoiler

I'm highly interested in
what the community thinks about Christian video games (by Christian, I mean, games geared specifically toward Christian audience, with bible verses, etc.).

Spoiler

What are your thoughts?

I get a lot of thoughts on it, but I haven't really asked the community.

** I don't want this to be about religion per se, but I basically need to understand other's thoughts on Christian-gaming in order to be a more effective designer.

*** I know that some sections of the forum disallow religious based conversation. I hope this appropriate, but if not, please gently inform me.

Here are a few questions to consider

1. What Christian-based games have you played?
2. Why do you think they're effective/ineffective?
3. How can they be improved/better publicized?

 

[Milennin]

I see no reason for me, who has nothing to do with Christianity nor does want to have anything to do with it, to want to play a game that was made with Christians as their target audience.

 

[Kyoku]

Hmmm... I'm not a Christian, so my thoughts are quite... not against, but not "YEAH" either, on this type of subject.
Usually in a game I look for nothing but quality and creativity, so religion doesn't really make me choose sides in likeness.
Of course, here's a few that would probably deter me from enjoying it...
1. It's purely about religion.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate religion or anything! I just find too much of it to be quite... bland and forced... unless they manage to make it very interesting with a cool backstory and all that jazz. If it was purely about the religion and it's history... then no...
2. Forces you to convert.
What I mean by this, is I don't want a game to tell me or make me believe their ways are the right ways. There really isn't more to say about that.
3. Mocks it, or mocks other religions.
Self explanatory. Why would ANYONE enjoy something like that. Unless it does it in a funny way and for jokes, then I'd be a little okay, but only if it didn't go past the line of what's okay and what's not.
To be honest, I've never played a game or seen one that has done this. But if I had seen one, then these rules are how I'd critique it.

 

[Sarlecc]

Two that I have played are:
1. "Catechumen" made in 2000 with a budget of $830,000
2. "Ominous Horizons: A Paladins Calling" made in 2001
Both are FPS and both were made by N'Lightning (which no longer exists due to poor sales of both games).
Basic game play was you would go through these levels fighting demons/guards/monsters. You had a health bar called faith which could be restored by collecting Bible verses. Though normally you would be in such a rush running from monsters you never got to read them much. The AI in both of those games tended to run around all crazy when you got near (sometimes they would run right up to you then turn around to fall into lava or something). They also had fairly poor graphics for 3D games.

Another one I have played was called "Captain Bible in Dome of Darkness" which used Bible verses as attacks against monsters. Though the catch with this one was the monster would have a deception you would have to beat by using the right Bible verse. Pretty certain that this one suffered the same fate as the above though. This game used very pixelated graphics that tried to give an illusion of depth in some of the hallways. This game was made in 1994.

Anyway I liked those games and still play them from time to time.

 

[Rhaeami]

Speaking as a Christian myself, I find it hard to get interested in such things. Since we view religion stuff as (effectively) factual, anything related to it is viewed almost automatically as either "edutainment" (bleh) or purely fictional dramatization, which many Christians are wary of for both warranted and unwarranted reasons alike. Basically, your only audience would be those who are super interested in the subject matter in a learning sense, kind of like how big history buffs enjoy true-to-life historical stories and biographies.

Christian, enjoys education for fun, and likes video games. It *feels* like a pretty narrow market, you know? I think the only way you could really market such a thing is for it to be a "funner" way to legitimately learn scripture. This would not only require material sufficiently complex to warrant the game (in other words, you yourself would need to solidly understand it), but it would also take ace-level design skills to make it more than just bland edutainment. You'd be open to criticism on both your game design and your actual teaching material... ouch!

The other approach would be allegorical storytelling like C.S. Lewis did, but that doesn't seem to be the focus of this thread.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean 'edutainment' as the somewhat derogatory term for simple education material masquerading as a game, not *all* educational gaming. Otherwise it would be silly of me to condemn and suggest it in the same post. XD

 

[Sarlecc]

Another thing I am going to add in regards to my earlier post; is that all three games target Christians which narrows the scope a lot. Then combat is added into the mix which narrows it even further. So whenever you have a target audience you have to take into consideration who out of that audience will play the game; due to other restrictions you might have unwittingly imposed.

 

[Runako]

Openly makes sense that it just doesn't fit your type. Perfectly sensible.

I see no reason for me, who has nothing to do with Christianity nor does want to have anything to do with it, to want to play a game that was made with Christians as their target audience.

I understand your perspective. If the material is not your flavor, then why would you play it. That's like, I wouldn't play a toddler's balloon popping game because, that's just not my flavor, but my toddler would go to town with it.
Thank you for your thoughts.

Hmmm... I'm not a Christian, so my thoughts are quite... not against, but not "YEAH" either, on this type of subject.
Usually in a game I look for nothing but quality and creativity, so religion doesn't really make me choose sides in likeness.
Of course, here's a few that would probably deter me from enjoying it...
1. It's purely about religion.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate religion or anything! I just find too much of it to be quite... bland and forced... unless they manage to make it very interesting with a cool backstory and all that jazz. If it was purely about the religion and it's history... then no...
2. Forces you to convert.
What I mean by this, is I don't want a game to tell me or make me believe their ways are the right ways. There really isn't more to say about that.
3. Mocks it, or mocks other religions.
Self explanatory. Why would ANYONE enjoy something like that. Unless it does it in a funny way and for jokes, then I'd be a little okay, but only if it didn't go past the line of what's okay and what's not.
To be honest, I've never played a game or seen one that has done this. But if I had seen one, then these rules are how I'd critique it.

I see that same issue Kyoku in Christian gaming (in regards to the 'purely about religion' and 'force to covert' comments). The reason why I think I see this is because designers construct the game with a split audience in mind. They want to reach Christians and Non-Christians
alike, which, on the outside seems like no big deal, but when you dive deeper, you realize that, in various areas, those two audiences are dynamically different, disagreeing on a lot of lifestyle choices. This is my theory though. As a result of such a split audience, they try to "Evangelize" Non-Christians and hope that Christians will be entertained as well. This I have been tempted with during design stages of the game I'm currently working on, and many people have suggested this as well. I find that it makes me have to "SPELL-OUT" everything for the Non-Christian audience simply because it's not what they're familiar with. As a result, this makes the game watered down for the Christians and, in turn, boring.

Thank you Kyoku for your comments!

Two that I have played are:
1. "Catechumen" made in 2000 with a budget of $830,000
2. "Ominous Horizons: A Paladins Calling" made in 2001
Both are FPS and both were made by N'Lightning (which no longer exists due to poor sales of both games).
Basic game play was you would go through these levels fighting demons/guards/monsters. You had a health bar called faith which could be restored by collecting Bible verses. Though normally you would be in such a rush running from monsters you never got to read them much. The AI in both of those games tended to run around all crazy when you got near (sometimes they would run right up to you then turn around to fall into lava or something). They also had fairly poor graphics for 3D games.

Another one I have played was called "Captain Bible in Dome of Darkness" which used Bible verses as attacks against monsters. Though the catch with this one was the monster would have a deception you would have to beat by using the right Bible verse. Pretty certain that this one suffered the same fate as the above though. This game used very pixelated graphics that tried to give an illusion of depth in some of the hallways. This game was made in 1994.

Anyway I liked those games and still play them from time to time.

Sarlecc, Your comment is interesting because you build the case that these games did poorly in the market and in design, but the awesome thing is, you still enjoyed and continue to enjoy these games. As far as the future of Christian-gaming goes, I think your comment speaks life to the idea that they got something right. It wasn't all bad. Its important, then, to encapsulate what worked and what didn't.

In response to your other comment and in regards to the direction of other member's insights, I think game design becomes extremely rhetorical because the audience is highly important. It would appear that the audience will dictate the life of your game towards the end.

Thank you Sarlecc, very helpful words.

Speaking as a Christian myself, I find it hard to get interested in such things. Since we view religion stuff as (effectively) factual, anything related to it is viewed almost automatically as either "edutainment" (bleh) or purely fictional dramatization, which many Christians are wary of for both warranted and unwarranted reasons alike. Basically, your only audience would be those who are super interested in the subject matter in a learning sense, kind of like how big history buffs enjoy true-to-life historical stories and biographies.

Christian, enjoys education for fun, and likes video games. It *feels* like a pretty narrow market, you know? I think the only way you could really market such a thing is for it to be a "funner" way to legitimately learn scripture. This would not only require material sufficiently complex to warrant the game (in other words, you yourself would need to solidly understand it), but it would also take ace-level design skills to make it more than just bland edutainment. You'd be open to criticism on both your game design and your actual teaching material... ouch!

The other approach would be allegorical storytelling like C.S. Lewis did, but that doesn't seem to be the focus of this thread.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean 'edutainment' as the somewhat derogatory term for simple education material masquerading as a game, not *all* educational gaming. Otherwise it would be silly of me to condemn and suggest it in the same post. XD

Rhaeami, I love the coined phrase "edutainment". I have to agree, that those type of games chase me away. Its a strange phenomenon to consider, that anything having to do with learning, makes me want to run (trauma from grade school maybe?) Once again, audience is key. Those "super interested" in the type.

No, wait, in response to your allegorical reference, I think thats exactly what needs to be done to lift up the particular stigma on Christian-based games. Breaking from the edutainment type such as bible trivia (which is like the only Christian-based games I can find on the app store unfortunately)

My Thoughts: Hmm... I think many Christian-based games have been ill-fated, though hard work have been implemented. Once more, I think its the theory of trying to please two dynamically different audiences or as Rhaeami said, the "edutainment" type.

I think they've fell short in the actuality that Christian living according to the bible is extremely adventurous. Especially when it says that "we don't wrestle against the flesh but against spirits" and that "the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but that of the spirit". The bible provides the context that the "battle" (I make an emphasis here -- RPG battle), is spiritual. Reading the book of Acts has allowed me to see that, in fact, there is a highly appealing aspect of the bible that provides context for an extremely compelling video game.

As for the direction of my personal game, I hope to add the presentation like John Bunyan's Pilgrim Progress. Which established a unique story that didn't exactly "force people to convert", but rather made them think about everything as a whole. I also want to move away from edutainment. But more study on the matter is needed.

This whole discussion has really enabled me to see how powerful games are in a rhetorical sense. O_O. audience is KEY.
Thank you so far for a peaceful discussion.

 

[Alexander Amnell]

I think that it is going to be an uphill battle no matter how you go. It reminds me of a game that I thought was awesome in it's development that was not made as a Christian game at all but took the Christian idea of tribulation as it's setting. It was basically Fallout except with the biblical version of apocalypse rather than the nuclear one and it was amazing...in my opinion. Unfortunately almost no one really gave it a chance and the developer ended up giving up on it and disappearing.

The problems I saw with it were that actual Christians were all turned off on it because they came thinking it would be for them and then lost it when they realized you can choose to play the game doing unchristian things like taking the mark of the beast (the only way to purchase anything in most towns), stealing and killing for profit (which you kind of have to do if you don't take the mark of the beast) etc. So most people who tried it because of it's Christian inspirations were turned off by the moral ambiguity that it sort of paints on the whole tribulation period (as that entire period is completely black and white biblically) whereas non-Christians who saw it had @Milennin's reaction, took one look and scrolled on, even though they probably would have actually liked it as it didn't paint the "Christianity is perfect" picture they expected it to, but they never played it because that's what they saw in its setting.

I guess what I'm saying is that you should probably go with trying to attract a Christian audience from the start, because people who aren't Christian are likely to be turned off by it being such even if you've made their dream game because of the moniker and actual Christians can be very particular when it comes to outside media such as games representing the bible, making such a feat a huge gamble from the start. For what it is worth though, I think there should be more biblical inspired games. There are tons of ideas that would make a fascinating game in that book (how about one about the life of Daniel or Gideon for example?) but because of the reservations of the congregation that really should be supporting that it seems like a lost cause most times. There just aren't enough of us agnostics with a fascination with anything historical, religious or mythological around to kickstart games like that.

 

[Runako]

Wow! It shows that particular audiences can be very sensitive. By any chance do you know the title of this game?
And it blows my mind how incredibly captivating living as a Disciple of Christ actually is. The calling is one like no other. Its hard to see it unless you're living it out. In fact, knowing that many Christians actually risk their lives -- getting yelled at, cursed out, beaten, persecuted, for sharing, gives so much ammunition for a truthful video game.

Following the Book of Acts and the Gospels, you see healing (there goes your "cure" or "heal" skill), you see heavy prayer (which becomes your buff or defense type skill), you see prophecy, which is something like attack based skills.

The amazing thing is that, all things are possible. Which is the case for any challenge for game designers of all different genres. if anyone says to this mountain, go throw yourself into the sea, and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.

 

[HexMozart88]

Well, I currently have a game about religion as a whole, and even that borders on some touchy subjects. I feel like a game about just Christianity would basically be what I've had shoved into my ears all my life. Forceful religion garbage. I'm somewhat indifferent to the idea, because I'm not Christian anymore, and I wouldn't appreciate playing a game for the sole purpose of getting a lecture. I think if you have it at more of a neutral standpoint, I'll be OK with that. I don't want any preacher games. I'm not trying to self-advertise, but my game is about atheists and Christians. There's an atheist who's very corrupt and wants to convert everyone. However, it's because Christians forced their laws upon him and did a lot of garbage too, like killing his brother. You see? Both religions did some bad stuff, so it's more of a neutral standpoint. My game doesn't suggest that one religion is worse than the other. They both have some pretty garbage people. But some good ones too.

 

[Alexander Amnell]

@Runako It was called The Devil's Dogma (or maybe it was just Devil's Dogma), though I haven't been able to find any trace of it in years. The developer seemed pretty stressed and dejected for a while and then the website and support (or flaming) pages just disappeared one day when I went to look for updates.

 

[Runako]

I'm actually interested in hearing more about your game. How can I access it? I love the passion behind the idea because apparently it comes from an actual point of hurt (for lack of better word). So, as a result, I think its effective to have a neutral game that makes an impactful political punch.

And Hex, I see that a lot among people. People force feeding others until the point of trauma. The harsh reality is that we are all broken people.
*I literally have to pause for emotional reasons*

The course of this discourse has me taking notes on the rhetoric of video games, which is awesome.

Any game (or any work of art) that pontificate the authors beliefs in an entirely bias way, many times, loses credibility. More relevantly, having a Christian video game where the characters are actually fighting with doubt and some are falling away even, provides a sense reality and demonstrates that although the author has beliefs and fully support them, they still demonstrate the truth behind the matter (for example, demonstrating the hardship of being human rather than all smiles and giggles)

I'm just adding to the discourse lol

 

[HexMozart88]

@Runako I assume you're talking about me. My game's not out yet, but you're more then welcome to be a beta-tester when the demo comes out. You can see some of it in the art thread in my signature.

And yup, pardon the pun. We're all messed up beings, and we try to seek comfort in our own beliefs by forcing them on others. Always been that way.

If you do a game like that, then I'd play it (just make sure you have good graphics). The perfect, tragic reality of it all. People are going to stay, and some are going to break away. Make sure you do it correctly. We can discuss your game and mine through PMs if you want, but this should stay general or we'll have the mods after us, LOL.

 

[LaFlibuste]

Well I'm definitely not your target audience as someone who was baptized (catholic) as an infant and wrote his archbishop to shove it where he was thinking about (in much more polite terms) as an adult (I got an apostasy) (so if you must know I'm an agnostic, I believe in some form of spirituality but I am fiercely anti-religion). So obviously I feel very strongly about this, especially around kids, and I find any integration of religion to anything game-related highly morally dubious.

So that being said I'm not sure if you were asking for gamers as a whole or only christian gamers so I replied to your poll anyway. I would never play a christian game. And if it wasn't advertised as such and I felt like you were trying to pass me a message and indoctrinate me, especially if bible verses pop up, you can be absolutely sure I'm closing the game the very second and getting a refund. And probably leaving a scathing review.

But hey, to each his own and don't let me discourage you from doing this project of yours

Also no offense meant to anyone and I do not intend on starting a flame war or anything, I won't insist further

 

[Pine Towers]

I'm an agnostic Christian, raised in the Holy Roman Church but strayed after I grew up.Still believe in Jesus, but don't follow any church.

That said, my 2 cents:
Most of the time, when hearing the expression "Christian game", I back away. Not because I'm a satanist, but because the scope of the game is written wrong. I play games for fun and that must be the core aspect. I play Doom because it is fun to kill demons, the story is mostly absent. I back away from Gone Home because it was being sold as a lesbian game (not because I'm a Christian) instead of a fun game.

I'm not expressing myself well in the subject, because I never stopped to think about it until now, so sorry anything.

The game @Alexander Amnell mentioned could be very good, but the audience didn't followed it. In a time of tribulations, being faithful and avoid killing, stealing and wearing the mark of the beast should be possible and render the best ending available to the player. Being able, as player to follow or not the path is the point. If your character's Hungry meter is low, and he finds a child with a loaf of bread, he should be awarded for not stealing it, and punished for killing the child to eat. But the choice must be presented for the player.

[EDIT: I don't like it as a game, but Undertale did this pretty well.]

Old games relied on a high score approach that led many gamers to spend years to get the max from the game. If your game have a good replayability factor, allowing different outcomes, and each one gives different points, players will replay trying to get the max score, and learn that being good is better. (this could also apply in an Achievements system, where each player will try to get the most of it. If your Achievement doesn't tell you how to acquire it, but instead lead to a Biblical verse, the player will try to follow the verse in the game to get it - or cheat and Google how to do it anyway)

If you sell a game about the Roman Empire, without directly touching the subject of religion, it would be better. Yeah, you could murder your way up to the top and rule over a city, but the best ending would be dieing by facing lions in the coliseum (or not! with a good score the lions would not attack - but the character would die anyway in the cross) with the credits showing each person he helped living a better life. Do not forget the good Samaritan was just that: a person of other religion that helped because it was the right thing to do.

[EDIT: Pillars of Eternity also was a great game because of it, but I won't spoil anything]

The best way to convey a teaching is not to preach, but to do.

 

[Frogboy]

I'd enjoy it if it had a cool storyline that had Christian origins or historic significance. Say it was an RPG of David and Goliath, Saint Michael's battle against Satan or even something less combat focused like Saul's conversion to Paul. Perhaps a modern day story that parallels something biblical like that. Games that tell interesting stories with strong Christian ties could seamlessly feature scripture throughout without seeming forced or out of place and still be interesting to those outside of the faith as long as the game itself was fun.

 

[Runako]

I'd enjoy it if it had a cool storyline that had Christian origins or historic significance. Say it was an RPG of David and Goliath, Saint Michael's battle against Satan or even something less combat focused like Saul's conversion to Paul. Perhaps a modern day story that parallels something biblical like that. Games that tell interesting stories with strong Christian ties could seamlessly feature scripture throughout without seeming forced or out of place and still be interesting to those outside of the faith as long as the game itself was fun.

Traditionally, Christian games don't offer what you're talking about. But I think if they did, they could make a a strong breakthrough. As a disciple of Christ, I am led to a lifestyle that causes me to heavily consider real human issues such as poverty, abuse, addictions, mental illnesses, wickedness, selfishness, pride, envy, murder, violence, hatred etc. At the same time being led to a life of holiness: purity, faith, hope, confidence, courage, mercy, and meekness. When these real life issues are brought together with the pursuit of holiness, an amazing story breaks through, not only my life, but through the lives of the others I witness living it as well.

This is a story of constant conflict. This life that I see, that I experience is a constant battle. Fighting the fear to be different, rejected, hated, punished. Fighting the temptations. Praying. Fasting. Reading. Often discouraged. Clawing through life to cling on to hope. Sometimes thinking I'm crazy. Fighting loneliness. But see the fight was always there, but as I read through the Word, its been highlighted!

But this is the same story we see throughout the bible.


After entirely defeating a multitude of false prophets with the power of God, Elijah was threatened by Jezebel. She wanted to kill him! Elijah ran from her in fear and told God "I want to die... I am all alone!"

He demonstrate real human emotions! But God strengthened him to move on

This is what I hope to see in a Christian Video game. A game that rightfully captures Christianity, that is, rightfully captures the constant battle, the constant fighting, and that breaks the misconception that "Christians are perfect, flawless, and happy all the time"

I agree with you when you say "Perhaps a modern day story that parallels something similar"

 

[SamJones]

I'd enjoy it if it had a cool storyline that had Christian origins or historic significance. Say it was an RPG of David and Goliath, Saint Michael's battle against Satan or even something less combat focused like Saul's conversion to Paul. Perhaps a modern day story that parallels something biblical like that. Games that tell interesting stories with strong Christian ties could seamlessly feature scripture throughout without seeming forced or out of place and still be interesting to those outside of the faith as long as the game itself was fun.

So something like The Binding Of Isaac?
Although, that then gets decried as "anti-christian" and instead a game like Left Behind: Eternal Forces is upheld a "christian".

 

[CleanWater]

Well... If the game doesn't want to catechize me, I would play it with no problem.

If you don't mind if I say it frankly...

The main problem with any religious based media, is that they all want to turn you into another member of their religion. People that aren't from said religion (like myself), either having another religion or no religion at all, are all tired of this pressing, so they all just skip it as soon as they see anything related to it.

In the other hand, media that is inspired on Christianism (as would be with any mythology), such as the movie Constantine, etc, aren't turned away and enjoyed as any other common media.

I studied the Bible just out of curiosity, I know basically everything inside there, but I take all this knowledge I got from it to the cultural side, not to the religious side. I could write a history someday based on this knowledge I have, but I won't impose anything to anyone, because I hate when someone wants to impose their beliefs to me.

So, in short... Don't make a religious game, make a game based on the religion.

 

[Rhaeami]

@SamJones That's really tricky territory. Especially in video games, there are a *ton* of Christian-inspired games that are actively hostile to Christianity, and only use the aesthetic to undermine or make fun of it. If you're actually a member of that community, it's easy to get paranoid after a while and start seeing insults where there are none, or start expecting the worst. I can't count the number of JRPGs I've played where a Christian-style religion shows up only to turn out to be a front for the Big Bad.

Taking your examples, Binding of Isaac comes across as satirical in the marketing material - like it's saying "Your Bible stories are disgusting, so here, have a grotesque horror story based on one." Left Behind meanwhile marketed itself as supportive speculative fiction. Frankly, I've played neither, and aren't inclined to - but the marketing alone makes it pretty clear who they're aiming for, and that's going to chase away (or attract) a lot of people who judge their games by the cover.

That's probably the OP's biggest obstacle - it's going to be darned near impossible to make anything "Christian" without generating both positive and negative preconceptions from most people.