What can be done to make RMMZ to have overwhelming positive reviews?

rooge

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But then it'd mean something like 148 positives, (my wild guess)300+ neutral and 82 negatives for the 1st month, and it still doesn't seem to look good
I think it would be even worse, it would be much more neutral than positive. :LZScool: Due to the chosen system, users are forced to decide for thumbs up or down. When I read some positive reviews and the only message is:

Audio BGM of MZ and DLC MV Trinity
They all use the lowest 64kbps
2020 is still using 64kbps
It's incredible
Hope this is just a mistake
Can be corrected

Added by 汪汪二哈華明秀 on September 10.

or in some reviews is written something like this about sale:

awesome upgrade, but honestly if you already own MV... Unless there's a specific reason say, like for a plugin thats not supported by MZ but you really want, then it's not really worth paying full price for. Def wait for discount! Otherwise, great software :)

Added by HiddenAbilities on September 13.

And it's also bad that Degica is not able to solve the problems reported on Steam, even though it's just DLC. RPG Maker MZ - Shanghai Fantasy Story still cannot be purchased because the site reports an error. This will definitely not improve the view of the MZ.

Steam store page RPG Maker MZ - Shanghai Fantasy Story
Steam discussion DLC not buyable?
 

orochii

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Overall my opinions on MZ thus far. Spoiler: They're not pretty... Also disclaimer: I don't hate the program.

1. Currently MZ looks like an upgrade to MV. You should be able to get MZ at a lower price if you got MV. And I don't mean $10, I mean at least 50% discount, maybe more.
2. APKs are still cumbersome to generate, and it's one of its selling points. I'm sure a lot of newbies get discouraged because (for them) attempting to play their shiny new RPG in mobile requires them to do too much.
3. The RTP bundled resources are cute, but not great. I feel there was a downgrade in quality compared to the MV one. MV had distinct battlers for front and sideview, these are identical (I'd actually vote for removing the duplicity and just have one enemies folder, games shouldn't be both things, and for the engine opt for something that works well with both, like a 3/4 perspective or something).
There are also some generator parts that look a bit bad.

1600706336115.png
These don't match well

1600706366848.png
This one is hard to see but it has a weird cut. Looks like a bad splice.

Side-note. I don't know if it's just me, but I keep mixing MV and MZ in my head. I feel like it's the Wii-WiiU situation.

--

IDK how VXAce did it. Maybe it was just because VX was soooo lacking in features? Because VXAce is pretty much in line with "being an update". They even reused a lot of assets, and added some features that the community was asking, like multiple tilesets. And the "feature system" thing which has survived up til now, is really powerful and everyone loves.

Maybe MZ is actually suffering from feature-creep.

EDIT:
And here's actually my probably very unpopular opinion:
You shouldn't be able to port your MV game to MZ. Why? Because they should be completely different engines. But they're so similar the MV people righfully think they should be able to. And this was probably made on purpose so MV people bought MZ (of course this is plain speculation, please don't be offended by this). Back on the XP days, I don't think people considered passing to VX/Ace unless they were planning to redo the game from the start. Same when MV came out, though I think more people considered it as MV looks just like a Javascript HD Ace and the mobile option seemed cool.
 
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estriole

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Overall my opinions on MZ thus far. Spoiler: They're not pretty... Also disclaimer: I don't hate the program.

1. Currently MZ looks like an upgrade to MV. You should be able to get MZ at a lower price if you got MV. And I don't mean $10, I mean at least 50% discount, maybe more.
2. APKs are still cumbersome to generate, and it's one of its selling points. I'm sure a lot of newbies get discouraged because (for them) attempting to play their shiny new RPG in mobile requires them to do too much.
3. The RTP bundled resources are cute, but not great. I feel there was a downgrade in quality compared to the MV one. MV had distinct battlers for front and sideview, these are identical (I'd actually vote for removing the duplicity and just have one enemies folder, games shouldn't be both things, and for the engine opt for something that works well with both, like a 3/4 perspective or something).
There are also some generator parts that look a bit bad.

View attachment 161408
These don't match well

View attachment 161410
This one is hard to see but it has a weird cut. Looks like a bad splice.

Side-note. I don't know if it's just me, but I keep mixing MV and MZ in my head. I feel like it's the Wii-WiiU situation.

--

IDK how VXAce did it. Maybe it was just because VX was soooo lacking in features? Because VXAce is pretty much in line with "being an update". They even reused a lot of assets, and added some features that the community was asking, like multiple tilesets. And the "feature system" thing which has survived up til now, is really powerful and everyone loves.

Maybe MZ is actually suffering from feature-creep.

EDIT:
And here's actually my probably very unpopular opinion:
You shouldn't be able to port your MV game to MZ. Why? Because they should be completely different engines. But they're so similar the MV people righfully think they should be able to. And this was probably made on purpose so MV people bought MZ (of course this is plain speculation, please don't be offended by this). Back on the XP days, I don't think people considered passing to VX/Ace unless they were planning to redo the game from the start. Same when MV came out, though I think more people considered it as MV looks just like a Javascript HD Ace and the mobile option seemed cool.
100% agree especially with your number 2. if somehow the easy APK / IPA creator tools could be made (and if possible included in the maker itself)... i'm sure there will be LOTS more user of MZ give positive review instead of negative one...
that could be the major selling point to upgrade to MZ from MV. until now i did not found a great reason yet on why people should upgrade to MZ if they already have MV...

also... honestly... lots of people kinda hope after MV the next engine might use some 3d asset (with built in 3d generator)... or at least 2.5D... because the 'competitor' smile game builder show a great result in using the 3d asset AND Android Export... something will look bad if there's a 'better' comparison to it.... maybe after MZ the RPG Maker 3d will happen then... :D :D :D.
 
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orochii

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Huehuehue... The RPG Maker 3D talk is just as old as my pants. Which are older than this forum (?).

At least in my opinion, the issue with a 3D RPG Maker is that the 3D ecosystem is not only harder to learn, it's also a bit less straightforward. Speaking of visual assets, with 2D pictures, and how's currently implemented in all RM incarnations, all you need is to position them properly in your image editor and consider the proper amount of frames. With models, there's a lot more involved (modelling, rigging, animating, texturing, etc).

However I'm not against it either. It's just that I think RM in 2D still fills an important niche, I guess? Or maybe it's just me being me (?). I'd give 9000 cents for a 3D RM.

Speaking of Smile, I once tried the demo, it was still a bit rough on the edges. But seemed like they were developing it more. I wonder how is it now.
 

estriole

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Huehuehue... The RPG Maker 3D talk is just as old as my pants. Which are older than this forum (?).

At least in my opinion, the issue with a 3D RPG Maker is that the 3D ecosystem is not only harder to learn, it's also a bit less straightforward. Speaking of visual assets, with 2D pictures, and how's currently implemented in all RM incarnations, all you need is to position them properly in your image editor and consider the proper amount of frames. With models, there's a lot more involved (modelling, rigging, animating, texturing, etc).

However I'm not against it either. It's just that I think RM in 2D still fills an important niche, I guess? Or maybe it's just me being me (?). I'd give 9000 cents for a 3D RM.

Speaking of Smile, I once tried the demo, it was still a bit rough on the edges. But seemed like they were developing it more. I wonder how is it now.
at least they can try at least using 2.5d image then :D... it will look fresh and not just repeating the old artstyle concept.

in smile game builder now they have the character generator which can generate 3d actor/event... so it's not too hard for newbie... also the mapping or eventing is almost the same as RM... draw and place object... not too hard actually... the downside of smile is they did not have plugin support like RM do

for me RM is currently stuck in comfort zone... and too lazy to change too much...
 

Nico Kaneo

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I honestly regret dropping $140 for the S bundle. Had high hoped for this one, but they straight up lied when they said this would be the biggest RPT in history. This is actually one of the smallest. Now you can't animate your own animations in the engine itself. Everything is bare bones and touted as "Plugins will fix it!" which is now every maker. If they really wanted to wow us, they should've made a 3D RPG Maker. We already have like seven 2D RPG Maker engines. Why do they keep making the same ones over and over?
 

slimmmeiske2

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I've personally been enjoying the 40+ hours I've done in MZ a lot more than the 200+ hours I've done in MV. The return of the layering system is a god send, as mapping anything from VX to MV was a pain. Another big plus is the optimization of the RTP files. (No more standard 2 Gigs downloads when trying out the community's MV games!) Still have to leave a review though. I want to get some more hours in, before I do so.

@Nico Kaneo I'm curious which RTP you think has more stuff, because as far as I can see MZ does have more than MV (the previous biggest RTP), mostly because of the inclusion of busts and full-bodies.

Regardless, it's a hard pass for me if RM ever goes 3D. There's more than enough 3D engines out there to use, if you really want to make a game in 3D.
 

Dororo

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Do you know the truth?
Ask those negative reviewers if they actually tried to release something.
Most of those points are silly.
4 layers are not enough...
And probably they can't even use ONE layer...
More resources, and they can't put the ones they have on good use.

Kids nowadays want to look smart by pointing out the incredible "bug" they found and ride the chariot of fun mockery.
There's one that felt that 2000 (2 0 0 0) items by kind is a strict limit that actually determined an uncanny struggling in development?
Not even the best FinalFantasy game reach that sum.
 

rooge

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@Nico Kaneo I'm curious which RTP you think has more stuff, because as far as I can see MZ does have more than MV (the previous biggest RTP), mostly because of the inclusion of busts and full-bodies.
I also don't know exactly what people who complain about a small amount of MZ RTP material have in mind. Almost no one really specifies it in the negative review, but I found one review where it would make sense - some do not recognize Busts as a regular part of RTP. The one of the negative reviews
Therefore, they consider it more of a scam and thought that there would be more tilesets, etc.

On the other hand, we have to say that the MV version for Win / Mac / Linux was incomplete, although Busts for RTP MV existed, but were only available for consoles (people, enemies, ..). This was found out by everyone who bought a DLC for MZ Trinity MV. I don't know why the owners of the desktop version did not have the opportunity to add this material to the RTP before the release of MZ (Trinity was released in 2018). Then this comparison is a bit sad between MV and MZ.
 

DoubleX

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Do you know the truth?
Ask those negative reviewers if they actually tried to release something.
Most of those points are silly.
4 layers are not enough...
And probably they can't even use ONE layer...
More resources, and they can't put the ones they have on good use.

Kids nowadays want to look smart by pointing out the incredible "bug" they found and ride the chariot of fun mockery.
There's one that felt that 2000 (2 0 0 0) items by kind is a strict limit that actually determined an uncanny struggling in development?
Not even the best FinalFantasy game reach that sum.
Just curious:
So, is the truth being that, there are way more negative reviews in RMMZ(82/230) than those in RMMV(27/135) in the 1st month after release, because of the fact the the kids now have changed compared to 5 years before(I won't be surprised if that's actually the case, but I really don't know on this one)?
I'd like to really know the truth, and thank you so much for enlightening me on that :guffaw:

P.S.: There are a very small amount of negative reviews that are so insanely ridiculous that I decided not to collect them at all lol
 
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orochii

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About the MZ RTP size, probably they were expecting something more substantial. More than "hey, we got busts and sci-fi now!". We can count all we want, but numbers don't mean the same to everyone. Unless you go the extra mile: 100 VS 1000.
People are always subjective. There's no way around that.

4 layers not enough. Tiled has unlimited layers. Maybe the point goes more in that direction, why having the limitation. Again, don't expect people to understand about technical stuff (though you should be able to draw much more if you change the approach, think about each tile as two polygons, graphics cards can draw millions of polygons with no problem, but I digress).

Assumptions might not be fair, but that someone could feel that way, that's fair.
 

slimmmeiske2

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I understand if they're disappointed that it doesn't have as much as they wanted, but that doesn't mean it's a lie that MZ has the biggest RTP. Plus there was a rundown on the second preview thread that listed how many SV battlers, how many tilesheets, how many BGMs, how many busts etc. MZ would have.
 

Dalph

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I imagine MZ after 3 years of updates and I'm sure it will be very good, probably will crush MV in every way and make the transition feel more worth it.
I expect it to have a few more functions added too down the road, alongside performance boosts of course.
Maybe they will add some QoL stuff that is still missing since 2k3 (Elemental absorption by default? A friggin RTP ship tileset included? etc).

In all honest the extra mapping layer and the manual option for layers were already major selling points to me, I don't have time nor patience to Parallax, and the control regarding the details in the maps is much higher in MZ, it feels like using XP...too bad many RTP tiles of MZ are o_O.

Effekseers is nice but making Animations has always been boring to me and it still is. Bleh. :rsad:

Regardless, I'm having fun with MZ and am making a game with it, I'm sure it will improve even more with time and I'm sure I won't go back to MV.
The more time passes, the less I feel like going back to MV, not sure if that's a positive thing.
 

Poryg

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MZ is nothing short of an upgrade for MV. Hence it is dated already after its release. QOL features that should have been there are missing. To name a few - not being able to insert new database items between two already existing ones. Not being able to go to System tab and clear the default music. No message templates. The move route visualization does not function as people would expect it to. Saving a map still saves the map downscaled by 50%. You can't define your own event commands. No custom grid sizes. No custom tile sizes.

Not to mention, the editor is stagnating since VX. There are no new or even improved event commands. RM2k3, which was released in 2002, actually has a better event command system than MZ, of course if we exclude the fact that it does not support scripting.

For real, with how little work went to MZ, it's more like they tried to bribe us with more default assets.
But, the graphics look cheap and I wasn't particularly impressed with music either. I would love an update to sound effects library - we have the same SE since RM2k3.
 

hinola

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I'm still using ace.
I bought MV on the hipe and I was disappointed.

Even now, without testing it, I feel MZ isn't even what MV should have been.
Where do they find their ideas, and how do they choose the direction to take?
Do they ask users, see what is done in the community ?
I still have a list of things that, I feel, should be basic in the software.
A list that we share with many other users.

Like, adding a "script" input in event page conditions (an example among others)
How a 3D animation editor can be a priority when basics ideas aren't even implemented ?
And how does that follow the RPG maker guideline of "make a game in simplicity" ?

Talking about the RTP, as a ancien XP user, I felt the lie in the "biggest base of rtp of all time".
Or they mean the more types of assets, which I hope.

TLDR;
Well, all of that to say
I see MZ as an update of MV
And I don't think it is what MV could and should have been in the first place.
Basics ideas are still missing
 

KakonComp

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I started making my current project a little after MZ's release, so I don't have the "should I switch" mentality, since I never used MV except to make a very quick game while waiting for MZ.

The only thing I miss, based on what I want to do with the maker, is the way animations work. Making my own pixel animations take a few more steps now, and an exterior program that I only half understand (to be fair, I've only used it once to test a simple hit animation). I see that the old animation style can be recovered via plugins, but I don't know about the performance, and I might as well use the ol' elfkisser, if anything, to eventually release the pixel animations for others to use in their own games.

I don't think much can be done to remedy any negative press, outside of some strange positive brigading, until enough updates add more stability to MZ (And some graphical fixes for people drawn in by RTP assets). I've experienced numerous crashes when selecting bust-sized pictures using event commands, among a couple other crashes testing battles. No FPS issues yet, thankfully.
 

Kupotepo

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@KakonComp, what happens to the bust function in MZ? I want to create the bust picture dialogues in MZ.

Also people here I please keep the list of what you missed I will write in the MZ feedback. Hopefully, the devs are not rejected without informing us. If that is the case, it is not a lie but a lack of communication issue. Please do not feel bad.

Also MZ 3D people, the company rejected your request and also tileset size changes are rejected as well.
 
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KakonComp

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@Kupotepo When I first got the program, I would use busts as pictures on the bottom of the screen for every message, while the message window was on top. I would be doing that for like 20 min or so, when eventually the program would hang and then close itself while I was in the show picture menu.

This was without any extra plugins at the time, since originally I was planning to do a default graphic/no plugin game. Not sure if the problem is from my comp or the program though, or if it's still a problem. I'm just saving after every few event commands now. :ewat:
 

cekobico

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Prior to knowing anything about MZ, I expected them to hire or at least cooperate with Yanfly and his team to integrate their plugin library into the new engine.

Let's face it, after years of developing with MV+YEP, it's impossible to go back to just Vanilla MV.
Besides, I feel like the man deserves some recognition for what he has done to the community; both the English-speaking and the Japanese community, the intended target audience (It's no secret they are aware of YEP and also use YEP extensively). It's almost moronic that this didn't cross their mind or maybe it did but Yanfly declined, then that's very, very unfortunate.

If the new maker combines MV, along with implementations of features that the community has been requesting for years, and default integration of YEP (not as plugin, but literally built into the editor); that would've been super super super attractive and I'll definitely buy that without second thoughts.


But instead we got this.

From a consumer point of view, who's ignorant to the community; a layman looking for an engine to toy around, it feels like a barebone engine (if not incomplete), with half of its features being sold as paid DLCs by a different proprietor (VisuStella). So not only do I have to pay for "half" of the engine itself, I have to pay another for half of the engine. It's a strange predicament, but maybe I'm the only one who feels that way since I've been very much on and off in this forum (I didn't even know the plagiarism shenanigans that hit Yanfly and missed the time window here his plugins was still free).

That was my first impression;
and now, having been able to look into the program itself extensively, I can say that it really does feel like RPG Maker MV 1.7; or 1.8 maybe. Save for the integrated ATB System and Effekseer animation system, many things feel the same as MV so I feel like my money went for that two upgrades. Though I do know that most of the changes happen behind the scene; but again, since I'm just a layman, it didn't impact me as much as other audiences who regularly tinker with RM codes & plugins.



So what can be done to make RMMZ have overwhelming positive reviews?
That...I honestly don't know. Because I really don't know what's the company's vision anymore.

The slogan "easy enough for a child" has always felt stupid for me. It's such a fallacy on its own, like first of all; I'm pretty sure people who have successfully finished, released/published their full-fledged games is a very mature and well-informed adults. Definitely not a child. No child have enough attention span and determination to finish a complete game; a 2-3 hour long game, yes, not impossible though almost unheard of.
"Powerful enough for a developer"? That's arguable, but maybe if the emphasis is on the word enough instead of powerful. A professional developer are better off saving for either Unity or UE. It seems to be the popular route nowadays for those type of developer to start with MV, then soon realizes how limiting the engine could be and decides to move to other proper engine with the funds they've amassed from their *******/Kickstarter.

So then which demographics MZ should go for? Somewhere between child and developer I presume; which is the hobbyist crowd who sees the engine as a game and/or storytelling medium instead of an engine. Just look at the loudest feedbacks it has received.

Proper developers won't complain about RTP assets; they don't need them. They will soon replace them as soon as they get the funds to hire artists and/or purchase original assets. At least, if they believe they are a developer; not just an aspiring developer (I'm so gonna get hate mails and death threats for this aren't I)

So yeah, I think for the engine to appeal to the hobbyist demographics, they really need to polish the outside of the engine; aka the Editor. They need to get what their money worth for the "base game" they have bought and I don't think I got my money worth, yet.

tl;dr

RMMZ, on the outside, feels too same-y with RMMV. While the improvements behind the scene are welcomed, the outside 'impression' is still important to make the consumer feel like they bought a distinctively different product, yet MZ retains the original appearance of MV (including its inherent clunky-ness); further enforcing the consumer's feelings of MZ looks like MV updates.
Therefore a major overhaul of the editor is necessary.


Footnotes:
As much as I want more RTP assets, let's be real, I doubt they would release a huge chunk of extra RTP assets for free. One or two sprites, yeah possibly, but let's be real, I doubt they would subsidize creations of multiple free tilesets and rather made them into paid DLC lol
 

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