What do you feel about fan service?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pierman Walter, Jan 1, 2017.

  1. Sharm

    Sharm Pixel Tile Artist Veteran

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    Can I just say how awesome you guys all are for talking about a volatile subject with people of differing points of view like adults and actually listening to what the other side has to say even if you don't agree?  It's really amazing, thank you!
     
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  2. Celianna

    Celianna Tileset artist Global Mod

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    @noctiluca ugh I  know what you mean about the abusive relationships. I think this is mostly coming from Japan, they definitely have different ideas over there about what's a healthy relationship or not (crying is seen as 'cute' over there, for a girl of course), so it infects all of anime and manga obviously. A lot of it is wish fulfillment, of course, wanting to cure or turn the bad boy into a good man who will stop abusing you. Nice in fantasy land - not so much in real life. There's also a lot of rape being depicted as sexy, or simply as "I just can't control myself around you!" and they won't even mention it's rape, or think twice about it.


    There's a lot of wrong things about relationships being portrayed in media, especially media from Japan, but I digress, this is about fanservice.


    Probably my favourite fanservice moment, was in the Legend of Korra, which is a sequel to Avatar The Last Airbender. In Avatar, one of the characters had a mother, who disappeared. Fans were all speculating what happened to her, but as the series ended, they never got their question answered. No one knew what happened to the mother. In the very first episode of the sequel, one of the characters asked - much like how a fan would ask the creators at Comic Con - "What happened to Zuko's mom!?" It was a nod to the fans that hey, we heard you! Eventually they didn't explain what happened to the mother in the anime series, but they did in the comic series. Either way, it was just a really cute moment for fans.
     
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  3. Andar

    Andar Veteran Veteran

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    It also depends on the crowd in japan, and there is another story of "fanservice" going in the wrong direction by removing such scenes independent of what is really going on.


    I have to admit that I only have this story second-hand, so it might be wrong. But there is a manga that is appearantly translated as "the sacred blacksmith" or something like that in english (SEIKEN NO KATANAKAJI), that started out as novels. In the first edition of the novels there was a scene where the heroine was raped by one of the main villains. Only in that series, it became a vital part of her characterisation, with that character NOT shrugging it off but displaying common victim problems and behaviours in the later story.


    And according to what I read there was a fanstorm against that, resulting in the rape scene (but not the resulting behaviour, which then made no sense anymore) being removed from later editions of the novels as well as the manga adaption.


    And this removal was done in a crude way (especially in the manga version) that made absolutely no sense - in the manga the villain goes on and even strips her, only to proclaim "not interested" after she was nude.


    I originally thought that was a translation censorship because it made absolutely no sense in any way before I read somewhere that this was changed even in the original due to protests from japanese fans not wanting to see the main character having such problems. And it was probably done crudely because the author didn't want to give in to that fanstorm at first.


    Beside everything else, this also shows that fanservice is not always about showing more skin, it might be (as several cases above also showed) about succumbing to fan requests (or editor requests for increasing sales) and rewriting/butchering parts of a carefully planned story.


    And it also shows that fanservice is often about "lightening" a story instead of allowing a mature handling of those themes - which also confirms the problem that several people have with fanservice only being an add-on to please instead of allowing real mature content (with its consequences) to be shown.


    In that context I'll probably have to rephrase my original statements to say now that pure fanservice is a bad idea - but not all nudity is really fanservice, sometimes it is required by the story. Only that a lot of people don't understand the difference and think that all nudity is automatically fanservice. And having mature themes (as opposed to simple nudity) deleted from stories due to fan protests while allowing and increasing stupid forms of nudity will not make the situation any better.
     
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  4. Diretooth

    Diretooth Lv. 23 Werewolf Veteran

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    Nudity, for the sake of nudity itself, is not bad, Nudity for the sake of the story is not bad. Nudity for the sake of making the fans happy is not bad, if done sparingly. If done to excess, it is bad. That's my simple motto.
     
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  5. dragoonwys

    dragoonwys Freelance Illustrator Veteran

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    Agreed. That could be said for a lot of things too, anything in excess will turn out bad LOL


    I think the more accurate term for succumbing to fan requests to such a degree, editing out an important aspect of something just for request fulfillment of said fans/editors, counts more as fan pandering than true fanservice, which at it's core is, fanservice more of just a nod from the creators to their fans saying 'why yes, we do keep track on our fan base and the topics flying around. Here have a tease to show we aren't lying and thanks for sticking with us all this time', like the ATLA example Celianna had stated.



    It's a little sad that when the term 'fanservice' is mentioned, the impossibly mini skirts version of it pops up in people's minds first due to the over saturation of where this word has been applied in media. In fact, most easter eggs found in games are actually a form of fan service, especially if it happens to be a call back to previous games the developer made.
     
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  6. Sharm

    Sharm Pixel Tile Artist Veteran

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    I've heard more than once that the term "fan service" doesn't always mean the sexy stuff, but I've never seen it actually used that way except when someone is trying to point out that it's got a broader meaning.  It may be time to admit that the definition has changed, and that's what it means now.  We can call the other stuff easter eggs and inside jokes.
     
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  7. Diretooth

    Diretooth Lv. 23 Werewolf Veteran

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    TvTropes defines fanservice as "The use of sex or sexualized situations reward or entice viewers." While not necessarily the end-all-be-all definition, it's one that is widely accepted by most people. As Sharm said, easter eggs and inside jokes are called as such for a reason. If, say, you found the princess' panties in a drawer, a la FF7, that is fanservice. If you use a princess' actual name instead of their alias and get different dialogue, then it's an easter egg. Spelling 'Bepis' in Undertale anywhere is both an easter egg and an inside joke.
     
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  8. Pierman Walter

    Pierman Walter Chunk Monster Veteran

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    For the purpose of this discussion, I'm talking about fanservice in the sexy sense because none of us have fandoms large enough to have their own inside jokes, theories, and references. The closest things I have to a fandom joke are,"Shipping Admiral Brinkman With Everyone: Brinkmanship" and "Pierman Walter still hasn't decided what the main character looks like yet."


    Since including details for longtime followers is not applicable to us, since most of us don't have longtime followers, it's a lot easier for us to make everyone in our game super logic-defyingly hot and try to get noticed that way, even if that might not be the best thing to do. How much fanservice do you have in your own games?
     
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  9. Diretooth

    Diretooth Lv. 23 Werewolf Veteran

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    For a moment, I was really confused because I thought, 'But everyone's part of a fandom'. Then I realized you were talking about our own personal games. Plenty of games we make can have in-jokes and references and theories. Development gags are fairly common, and having something funny being said in feedback to a beta version can become something of an in-joke. And theories are common, even if you're not hugely popular. Everyone has epileptic trees about something.
     
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  10. Shaz

    Shaz Veteran Veteran

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    I thought you were asking about fans of other games, as in having characters from other games appear in a cameo.


    Now that I know what you're REALLY talking about - nope.  Don't have it, don't need it, and I wouldn't be interested in playing a game that featured it without a valid reason either.  My game rests on its story and gameplay, and my target audience is not 16 year old boys who need to see some booby to find a game interesting (apologies to any 16 year old boys who don't fall into that stereotype).


    I have one character I especially like because the artist based him on Val Kilmer and pulled it off really well, and I've had girls comment on how sexy another character is because he's wearing glasses.  But that's it.
     
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  11. ShadowHawkDragon

    ShadowHawkDragon Veteran Veteran

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    One thing I will add is, while a good chunk of people are against adding fan-service I wouldn't just remove fan-service-like elements from your game due to fear of backlash.


    For example in my game I have plans for a scantily-clad (potentially big-boobed ) lady with a rather provocative deliberately teasing and sadistic personality. I didn't design her that way just because I wanted fan-service but because I felt and still feel that her unique (albeit 'sexy') character is critical for the story-line. She will have a significant role on the story and characterisation outside of her sexiness.


    I have already gone through many designs trying to limit her 'appeal' but none fit her unique outlook on life. If I go any further I might as well delete her entirely and therefore have to redesign an entire portion of my story while also losing those characterisation scenes between her and my MC (girl) who is disproving of such provocative attitude and attire. Even my cold-hearted manipulative butler fears what I have in store for him when I finally introduce this scandalous 'hag'.


    I've also got a cat girl who I've forced into clothes to avoid fan-service which don't make sense as shes a real cat who transforms to and fro (a cat on map, human-cat in battle and some scenes)...
     
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  12. Diretooth

    Diretooth Lv. 23 Werewolf Veteran

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    I will state this: If the story calls for it, it is not strictly fanservice in the terms of a character designed to appeal to a certain sexual demographic. In the game, Nier, the character Kaine is very scantily-clad, but the reasons for it are there, and it's treated in a realistic way when the characters comment on her lack of clothing. Don't force clothing on a character if it would not make sense in the story. Especially if logistically, they wouldn't be there in the first place. Don't limit yourself based on the potential whims of others, explore everything, fear nothing, and create in such a way that your soul sings and your voice is heard.
     
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  13. Milennin

    Milennin "With a bang and a boom!" Veteran

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    Actually, with Pokémon it was only the first generation games that only let you play as a boy. The reason why that was, if I had to guess, is because the creator of Pokémon (a guy) used to love catching bugs as a kid, and that's how he came up with the idea for the games. And so, the first games were to feature a boy character.


    And that's how it went a lot of the times. Games got playable male characters because the games were created mostly by men. (And also because games back then were seen as nerdy, and less girls were into playing them than guys, so it also made sense as a business decision.)

    Then, would you say that Black Rock Shooter looks cool? (I know it's unrelated, but I'm just curious to know what you think of the example I mentioned earlier.)


    [​IMG]

    No, because first, I still don't know what girls consider fanservice aimed at them. Is it seeing half naked guys? Butt shots? Or just a good romance? It seems like the only thing girls like to admit to having fanservice for them is the anime Free (which Celianna mentioned), which I haven't watched myself, but from what I've read of it I know it's about a group of guys that go swimming and, supposedly, has some yaoi undertones.


    Secondly, because I mostly play/watch things that are aimed at guys/men instead of that which is made for the opposite gender. I have watched a few shoujo series that featured a male character that (if I had to guess) is generally accepted as handsome/sexy by girls that was pretty cringe-y to watch at times (both the guy and the romance between him and the girl), Then again, those shows were aimed at girls, so that was to be expected.
     
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  14. Sharm

    Sharm Pixel Tile Artist Veteran

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    Game making started that way but it wasn't good business, it was a self fulfilling prophecy.  Kind of like how toy companies still think that girl action figures don't sell even though they sell out every time they're made.  It wasn't that girls weren't interested it was that they were left out.  There have always been girl gamers and creators.  Remember Roberta Williams?  She was making games for both genders since the fifties, proving that there was a market but even now it's still mostly a boys club.  I've got personal experience with this but that would be completely off topic to discuss.


    I remember as a kid finding out that Samus was female and thinking "oh, I'm allowed to like this too".  Not just because she was a girl but because she was allowed to be a girl who wasn't there to be oggled.  Then they ruined it with the sequel.  I was so disappointed.  Now Samus didn't make or break my interest in games, I've always been a gamer, but there were some gaming genres that had clear "no girls allowed" sign.  Because in some genres girl characters were only fanservic.e.


    Black Rock Shooter?  Eh, not really.  Her coat is cool.


    Ouran Host Club would be a pretty good example of a wide range of female fanservice.  In general I'd say what girls find sexy is seeing a bit of toned body that's well dressed with a guy that makes the girl the center of attention. You've proven my point just fine though.  You've been saying from the start that there's plenty of female fan service to balance things out but then say that you don't know what female fan service looks like.  Yes.  That is the problem.  Even the stuff that is supposed to be for girls is made by guys for guy tastes.  It isn't actually equal or fair.  By acting like it is it obscures the ability to actually discuss the subject and get somewhere.  That somewhere may not even be a place of equality.  I personally would be happy if people just admitted that it's a cheap way of getting a hormonal boy's interest and that it turns women off.
     
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  15. RetroBoy

    RetroBoy Veteran Veteran

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    Not exactly true.


    [​IMG]


    There is a whole industry about the objectification of men. Its actually a very interesting topic and I feel that it is often plagued by regurgitated misconceptions, which I'll go into in a moment.


    The problem is that what we call Fan Service is often more about the Power Fantasy. Like you mention, women want different things to men generally. Its genetic. People like to argue that there is no sexual dimorphism in our species but those people are typically ideologues. At the end of the day men want to be the strongest, the alpha, they want power and achievement. This drives them on a very deep and primal level. It is why men are so much more competitive than women.


    On the other hand, while men desire strength, women desire beauty. People will try to say this is because of objectification and rape culture, but its also observable in primates so its much more likely (if we're to be practical) that it is just how our brains are wired. Strip away the social niceties for a moment and think about the kind of things that gets a man's engine going in the bed. He wants to be told he's strong, not beautiful. While women want to be told they're desired and beautiful, not strong. There are exceptions of course, but we're not talking about them, we're talking about common human experiences.


    As a result, we have a situation where men are more ascetically impressed by a beautiful woman than a strong one and more impressed with a strong masculine man than a scrawny beta. Likewise, women are typically more attracted to muscular (or toned) men with athletic builds, wealth and social influence. This is just a natural part of our instincts and what we look up to.


    So as a result, the power fantasy archetypes essentially gravitate towards powerful men and attractive women. This is largely the reason that early anime heroes looked like westerners and possessed a great deal of bulk (and beards were not uncommon). However, in recent years as Japanese men have become progressively more feminine and asexual we have seen the trend shift to more slender and boyish heroes. While the woman available are not those who must be conquered or won over by the man's masculinity, power or ability, but rather those who are essentially infatuated for seemingly no reason at all or otherwise sexually vulnerable.


    This is because on a deep psychological level, the male viewers can no longer relate to the powerhouses of old. They know they are weaker and less competitive. And Japanese women (for the most part) do not watch anime into adulthood because there is a stigma around it. Again, I'm speaking generally, there will always be an exception or two.


    I think the sexualization of under-aged girls is also linked to the "Beta-ing" of Japanese men, who are largely the target demographics for the medium. Its a pretty heavy talking point, but my assertion is that weak and emasculated men who lack the confidence to approach women in real life are more predisposed to prey on younger girls and thus, more prone to foster these sexual proclivities. After all, according to the accounts of many Serial Killers they start off small with minor perversions and then grow them as the prior thrill is lesser and lesser.


    I believe that this is the problem in the medium, more than the impossible body standards.


    I do not think there is any shame in men with arms as thick as tree trunks or women with perfect bodies, so long as we understand that they are ideals... aspirations... and dreams.


    The problem comes from a (albeit subtle) lowering of standards and expectations. Everyone likes sex and there is nothing wrong with that. But when the sex is injected to appeal to deviancy and perversion, rather than as part of the story, that is the problem -- again -- not because of the content but because of the consequence.


    Like I mentioned in my first post, I come from an era where Amon, Apocalypse of the Devilman was not too far from the industry standard. The OVA includes gore, child murder, rape, full-frontal nudity but it didn't glorify them. Rather, it served as a cautionary tale about a society without inhibitions... ironically... the world largely as we see it now.


    Where women are expected to be like men to be powerful, rather than to be powerful by being feminine and embracing womanhood. Where men are fragile and frail cowards and perverts and story and substance is second to subtext and sluts.


    I doubt anyone will read all this but I just wanted to get it off my chest. Maybe my perspective will help folks some. Who knows?
     
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  16. Sharm

    Sharm Pixel Tile Artist Veteran

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    I don't think we actually are disagreeing, but I appreciate the thorough response.  Let me rephrase.  Women in general like athletic over the power lifter look.  In other words someone who is actually fit is more sexy than someone who only has muscle.  This isn't to say that bulky muscle isn't sexy, it's just not as important as tone.  I hope I'm making more sense.  Now that doesn't mean that there aren't tons of girls who don't prefer bulky muscle, or that there aren't tons who prefer the nerdy look (me).  Just that a woman's preference in men isn't the same as the male power fantasy.
     
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  17. Diretooth

    Diretooth Lv. 23 Werewolf Veteran

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    You raised a lot of thought-provoking points, RetroBoy, and certainly something I'll think about much later.
     
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  18. dragoonwys

    dragoonwys Freelance Illustrator Veteran

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    I agree that a woman's presence in men isn't the same as the male power fantasy. But I also think there is a lack of emphasis on fanservice for females to account for, if one looks in broad strokes, there isn't a lack of material out there such as nicely suited men or dominant powerful men etc whatever floats their boat, it's just not deliberately pointed out in most forms of media as fanservice-y. Now when I look back at a lot of the media I've seen, there are indeed a lot of men that could have played in nicely into the fan service for females category if they were showcased as such.

    I watched that show before multiple times, and the female fanservice can be confidently said to be there because they put emphasis on it a whole lot. It covers a nice variety of men and they really do their all to showcase them as eye candy for ladies (detailed close up shots, still frames with sparkles everywhere. Some of it, even a bit to too much till it reaches comedic effect but the main thing here is still putting emphasis on it). Just like how other media with huge male fanservice showcase their ladies.


    The obvious divide that can be seen here is that it might be the case of how media frames the subject. Male oriented fanservice seems to be everywhere because they always put a spotlight on it. I know a bunch of ladies who go gaga over certain Marvel Avenger's male cast when they show up all spruced up in formal wear or starts showing off some biceps. And yet, a lot of those things they do don't register to the public as having fanservice vibes automatically on first glance while Black Widow gets showered by a ton of such comments even if the thing she was doing wasn't intended as fanservice. 


    Another scene example, put a lady in a sexy dress at dinner night and a guy in a snazzy tux, people might call the lady out as fanservice but say the man isn't fanservice and it could be swept under the rug as 'something he's supposed to be wearing for these events' even though the lady was literally just doing the same thing.


    Media over time trained people into thinking that "This is what fanservice looks like, and this is what fanservice is not." and because of the lack of emphasis on female fanservice, that when male characters do start showing off fanservice but not spell it out to the audience with obvious visual cues, people just don't pick it up since it just doesn't register as such at least instantly.
     
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  19. RetroBoy

    RetroBoy Veteran Veteran

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    Attraction is an interesting topic for sure.


    As controversial as this statement is, it comes back to a very primal and animalistic part of our nature. Anyone who has dated a nice Christian or Catholic girl knows what a firecracker they can be in the bedroom when they let go of their inhibitions. Its about our racial dynamics. Woman (in most ape species) are there to be mothers and lovers. While men are there to be fighters and protectors. Its why on average women are more social than men, but why men have a larger bell-curve regarding intelligence (generally being either exceptionally more stupid than woman or exceptionally more intelligent).


    You might be wondering what point this has?


    Well, like I said, its about attraction. Men are attracted to vulnerability. Which is why most Mega-Feminists are single, lonely and miserable people. From a legal point of view woman should be free and equal. However, powerful, successful career women will often find it more difficult to find "men" who will be willing to marry them. I have a very dear friend who is in this very situation right now while still being a skilled psychologist and a very attractive lady.


    At the end of the day, it is a man's instinct to serve a purpose and to protect. We want to feel like we are needed or useful. This may agitate some men (no one is perfect) but those without purpose are often prone to anxieties and depression. It is also the reason poor or jobless woman have more children and more luck with men. It is not so much because they have more time (though I am sure that is a minor factor) but because as men we are more likely to pick a woman who admires our strength or ability to provide for her. While a woman without that need is more easily kept as a friend, as it does not make you feel insecure.


    There are many men whose wives earn more than them and they are completely fine with it--but there are many more who struggle with this; and this is because chemically we are wired to seek out certain things. It is nothing to be ashamed of.


    Many woman will attest that the happiest they have ever been is being a mother and this is because their brain gives them a massive dopamine hit around children. Men, on the other hand, require victories and to a lesser extent admiration. It is why we trade war stories and are typically better comedians. It is less to do with "potential" and more to do with motive. When a man tells a joke, other men want to laugh to assure him, especially when they are fond of him. As it is part of our instinct as pack hunters. While when women do it (even if it is the exact same joke) it will typically garner less laughs. This is because typically, the lizard-brain part of the human mind is thinking "Why is she here?" and "She should be safe" and requires that extra jump. This is because comedy is risky and the basic human instinct is to our females. We've built a whole society around women, honestly. Woman are (no pun intended) the mother of invention.


    So those who claim that they are somehow lesser are really underestimating how much of a motivational factor a good woman (or mother) can really be on a man.


    And all of this comes back to the how and why of attraction. Its honestly a bit frightening to think that so much of our behavior is governed by these primitive and primal instincts that we are not even are of, but by being aware of them, it makes it easier for individuals to control them and find happiness.


    At the end of the day, entertainment provides us with an escape from reality. So we want that escape to be as grand and fantastic as it can be. If accomplishment is an important part of that fantasy, then the men will be strong and the women will be beautiful.


    I guess what I am saying is, you have sex with Lara Croft, you marry Princess Peach. For women their market value is highest when they are younger and their eyes are bigger and their body is perkier, because to men we are looking for healthy mates to sire our children and who will perform sex enthusiastically without comparing us to other men. This is why many men are attracted to virgins. Because a deep and primal part of ourselves wants to be the King, the Alpha. We want our partner to look up at us and cling to our arm to protect them from the evils of the world... because when someone has that kind of belief in you, it really flicks a switch in your brain and calls out the warrior spirit of even the most cowardly or feeble man... and we all want to be strong.


    For women, the looks of men are less important. As they are seeking comfort and security. It is the reason that wealth plays such a huge factor into attraction. Women have been scientifically proven to be more sexually attracted to men who have more money. So, for all the nerds out there, save yourself up some money and get yourself a suit if you're planning on peacocking. You might not be able to build up arms like the Man of Steel but women will typically take personality and financial security over a good looking guy because instinctively, they are looking for the best father for their children. It is also the reason that woman with good relationships with fat fathers are more prone to be attracted to fat men.


    I'm in my early 30s and learning all of this and studying psychology has helped me no end and though it is a broad topic, its all interconnected. The key to being a happy man is to be a strong one, do not allow yourself excuses, and don't worry if you are not attracting woman now, because as you get older your market value increases. Its the reason I am able to date hot 20 year-olds now when in high school I couldn't even get a date.


    Fan Service is ultimately for weak beta guys that lack the courage to be their truest self and be what women need them to be. The next time you're fapping to an upskirt of a little thing with a kwaii-cry, remember that. Be better than that. Have standards, don't be a horny monkey, be a great man.


    <--snip-->


    This is the wisdom I have learned over the years, so have fun with it guys. lol
     
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  20. watermark

    watermark Veteran Veteran

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    Some female romance author said (sorry forgot who) that when she was young, while boys were watching porn, the girls couldn't get enough of Forever by Judy Blume. The book supposedly had a lot of sex in it too. 


    So I was browsing through some romance novels (cause of my whole Heartache fanfic project, anyway.) and reading some of the sex scenes. Maybe cause I'm a guy, maybe because I'm skipping around so I am seeing the scenes all out of context, or maybe because the ones I picked are just badly written, but so far I feel no excitement reading about sex. It really could be a guy / girl thing.


    Just like girls admit that they sometimes enjoy reading "trashy" romance novels, I think most guys enjoy the "unnecessary" fan service. We know on a logical level its not doing anything for the story, but we like it. :p
     
    #60

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