What do you want to see in "Dungeon Tools"?

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Tsukihime

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You're walking through a dungeon and there a number of different obstacles that you personally cannot reach yourself.


For example in zelda you have a lot of different tools to work with. You can throw boomerangs at people or things or shrubs, or you can throw bombs at things, or hookshots, or arrows.


You don't even have to make an action battle system to use tools. Wild Arms is an example of a series where your tools aren't necessarily used for combat purposes, but to be able to get through dungeons.


What kind of functionality do you want to see?


The most basic is to be able to use a tool, and if the tool hits something, something will happen.


For example, you shoot an arrow and it hits a switch on the other side of the map, lowering a bridge or something like that.


I will be designing a dungeon tool system and have some ideas what should be in it, there are probably a lot of other potential use cases.
 
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Susan

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I can only think of basic tools right now :

- Rope & hooks - for climbing.

- Axe - for cutting down trees.

- Shovel - for digging holes.

- Net - for catching fish, butterflies, monsters, etc.

- Knife - for cutting vines.

Sounds survival-ish rather than dungeon tools, doesn't it?
 

C-C-C-Cashmere (old)

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  • Boomerang that travels in an arc, hitting some enemies on the way there and possibly the way back.
  • You can have a "Beetle"-like (Zelda series) flying mechanism that can only fly for a certain amount of time, to press a switch or collect an item perhaps? All you need to do is create a button that spawns an event that you can control like a mechanical bird. e.g. Press "A" to create the "Beetle" and then use the arrow keys to maneuver the beetle to a switch or item that you could not reach if you were normally moving.
  • Bombs that can demolish walls.
  • A gust gun that can shoot out air, blowing away dust and enemies. It can also help turn switches, or move platforms across a room.
  • Use mitts to crawl through underground passages.
  • A bit of a more weird idea: create a "Portal" gun that you can shoot at one wall and shoot at another and then walk through it like it's a portal. This one will probably take way more programming, or at least it may not fit in with the usual "fantasy lore" type games.
That's all I can think of right now.
 

Bastrophian

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Man...that would be really useful. You could maybe make a shooter a lot easier with a system like that. Thats what im thinking. Mostly a projectile function (guns, arrows, boomerang, fire ball, lol...), grappling hook, bombs for blowing up secret passages....
 

Tai_MT

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Magical Floor - Summons a small 2x2 hard light magic in front of you.  It can be used to cross small chasms or cover traps.  Could also be used to negate damage from below you... Or catch objects falling from the ceiling.  Maybe you could even use it to protect an ice bridge from falling lava.

The possibilities are endless!
 

whitesphere

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Magical Floor - Summons a small 2x2 hard light magic in front of you.  It can be used to cross small chasms or cover traps.  Could also be used to negate damage from below you... Or catch objects falling from the ceiling.  Maybe you could even use it to protect an ice bridge from falling lava.

The possibilities are endless!
Aaah, another Portal 2 fan, I see. :)

As for dungeon devices, depending on the tech level in the game world:

1. Ladder to climb to different levels

2. Scuba or gas mask (or perhaps hazmat suit) to allow the party to breathe underwater (or in a hazardous area)

3. Water pump to put out fires so party can move through an area

4. Pickaxe to mine things from walls and to dig through certain walls

5. Lockpicks for treasure chests and locked doors

6. Grappling hook to go up a level or to go across a chasm

7. X-ray (or magical True Sight) goggles to see invisible passageways

8. Crowbar to open doors or move heavy objects (such as boulders)

9. Tripwire to stop monsters (not too useful in random encounters but useful otherwise)

10. Weighted statuette to keep a pressure plate from activating (see: Raiders of the Lost Ark)

11. Block to hold open a door which closes on its own

12. Sleeping powder (put guards to sleep in a sneaking game)
 
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Oddball

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I actually would like some functunality to make more in depth puzzles. push puzzles, various traps and other kinds of things like that. not just tools used in dungeons, but tools dungeons can use against the player.
 

Tsukihime

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So far my design would support


1. Tools that players can use


2. Tools that you can place around as traps for example. Maybe an arrow shoots out of the wall when you walk near it.


3. Tools that non-player characters can use


Well, having an arrow shoot from a player is basically the same as an arrow shooting out from another event, so you just create an event as a "trap" and when you walk near the event, the trap goes off and it fires an arrow.


I look at each tool separately and how devs can use them in their own projects

1. Ladder to climb to different levels
I call this a "Passage" tool.


What we are interested here is the ability to pull a ladder out of your bag and put it on the map.


Now, the ladder itself can do various things, but the main use is dynamic passage settings. There used to be a gap between two tiles...now you filled it up so you can reach the other side.


The graphic used can be a ladder. It could be a piece of rope, or a bridge. The ladder itself would span one tile, but you can combine multiple ladders together to create a longer passage.


One challenge here is what happens when you want to have a ladder that spans multiple tiles.

2. Scuba or gas mask (or perhaps hazmat suit) to allow the party to breathe underwater (or in a hazardous area)
These can serve two purposes


1: provide passage.


2: disable certain behavior


Suppose there's a lake with some treasure at the bottom. You can design this in two ways


1: you can't step in the water without equipping diving gear. Seems normal.


2: you can step in the water, but you will lose HP over-time. You will likely die before you reach the treasture. If you equip diving gear, you can then step in without losing HP.


So we have another category of tools for "Behavior". In the example above, losing HP would be the behavior if you don't wear your diving gear and jump in the water.

3. Water pump to put out fires so party can move through an area


4. Pickaxe to mine things from walls and to dig through certain walls


5. Lockpicks for treasure chests and locked doors


6. Grappling hook to go up a level or to go across a chasm


8. Crowbar to open doors or move heavy objects (such as boulders)


9. Tripwire to stop monsters (not too useful in random encounters but useful otherwise)


10. Weighted statuette to keep a pressure plate from activating (see: Raiders of the Lost Ark)


11. Block to hold open a door which closes on its own


12. Sleeping powder (put guards to sleep in a sneaking game)
These are tools that allows you to interact with objects on the map.


You swing a pickaxe, if it hits a special wall, wall collapses.


You set a door-stopper, which prevents a door from closing.


In general: use tool, something may be created (like an animation, or an actual object), stuff might happen.


I'll call these "Interaction" tools.

7. X-ray (or magical True Sight) goggles to see invisible passageways
I would categorize this as a behavior tool. Similar to the scuba gear, you have two options


1. No true sight, can't walk through walls with hidden passages, or


2. No true sight, but you can still walk through them. It just means you can't see them.


Now, we have three categories of tools that covers most of the ideas in this thread so far.

- Rope & hooks - for climbing.


- Axe - for cutting down trees.


- Shovel - for digging holes.


- Net - for catching fish, butterflies, monsters, etc.


- Knife - for cutting vines.
Rope/hook: passage


Axe: interaction


Shovel: interaction


Net: interaction


Knife: interaction

Boomerang that travels in an arc, hitting some enemies on the way there and possibly the way back.


You can have a "Beetle"-like (Zelda series) flying mechanism that can only fly for a certain amount of time, to press a switch or collect an item perhaps? All you need to do is create a button that spawns an event that you can control like a mechanical bird. e.g. Press "A" to create the "Beetle" and then use the arrow keys to maneuver the beetle to a switch or item that you could not reach if you were normally moving.


Bombs that can demolish walls.


A gust gun that can shoot out air, blowing away dust and enemies. It can also help turn switches, or move platforms across a room.


Use mitts to crawl through underground passages.


A bit of a more weird idea: create a "Portal" gun that you can shoot at one wall and shoot at another and then walk through it like it's a portal. This one will probably take way more programming, or at least it may not fit in with the usual "fantasy lore" type games.
Boomerang: interaction. A bit more complicated in that it travels in a certain trajectory


Beetle: behavior


bird: behavior-like.


Bombs: interaction. Area of effect


Gust gun: interaction. Again, potentially area of effect


Mittens: behavior or passage (maybe someone refuses to touch the ground without mittens)


Portal gun: Not sure how I would categorize it. I'd probably go with behavior since you step in and you come out the other side.

Magical Floor - Summons a small 2x2 hard light magic in front of you. It can be used to cross small chasms or cover traps. Could also be used to negate damage from below you... Or catch objects falling from the ceiling. Maybe you could even use it to protect an ice bridge from falling lava.
Used for passage, and also interaction.

Man...that would be really useful. You could maybe make a shooter a lot easier with a system like that. Thats what im thinking. Mostly a projectile function (guns, arrows, boomerang, fire ball, lol...), grappling hook, bombs for blowing up secret passages....
Yes, with my system, you can potentially create a shooter with only eventing.
 
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captainproton

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Depending on the setting of the game, just about anything could fulfill these different roles. In the Golden Sun series, you didn't really have tools, but elemental powers with non-combat untility.

Make vines grow to scale a wall.

Move pillars with telekinesis.

Create pillars of ice from puddles.

Read minds telepathically for clues.

Scatter debris with whirlwinds.

Douse fires with conjured rainclouds.

Ignite torches and fuses with conjured flames.

But, if you're looking specifically for tools, rather than mystical powers, why not a wind-up toy like the Beetle which scoots along the ground, checking for traps, or a gun which fires globs of slime to trap enemies or gum up machinery?
 

Tai_MT

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How about "Bag of Sand"?  You could toss it in front of you to reveal traps on the floor (or invisible walkways over chasms), use it combat by throwing it in the faces of enemies and stunning them, or by even placing it on a switch to hold it down for you.  Maybe you could even use it as a sort of "magical shield" where you throw a bunch of sand in front of you and it dissipates incoming magical spells as the grains would scatter or take the hit for you.

What about "Bottle of Grease"?  You could throw it down on the ground in places to make enemies slide around and have trouble hitting you or getting to you, you could put it down behind really heavy statues to make them much easier to move, you could grease up wheels on mine carts to get them to go, you could put it on the hinges of some doors to get them to open.
 

Tsukihime

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Depending on the setting of the game, just about anything could fulfill these different roles. In the Golden Sun series, you didn't really have tools, but elemental powers with non-combat untility.


Make vines grow to scale a wall.


Move pillars with telekinesis.


Create pillars of ice from puddles.


Read minds telepathically for clues.


Scatter debris with whirlwinds.


Douse fires with conjured rainclouds.


Ignite torches and fuses with conjured flames.


But, if you're looking specifically for tools, rather than mystical powers, why not a wind-up toy like the Beetle which scoots along the ground, checking for traps, or a gun which fires globs of slime to trap enemies or gum up machinery?
I use the term "dungeon tools" because it seems more obvious what the script or concept might be. "Elemental Powers" for example wouldn't provide me with much clue what I would be using the script for (unless of course you're a huge goldun sun fan and it immediately comes to mind)


Currently, I have defined three types of categories that tools could fall under: Interaction, Behaviour, and Passage. A single tool can fall under one or more tools depending on what they do and how they are used.


We can group each of those elemental powers into these categories as well and find a way to abstract it. For example, take the vines example:


1. Use the tool (Execute your skill)


2. Something happens (Vine grows longer)


3. Results occur (you can now climb up the wall)


Read minds is an interesting example.


First, do you choose whose mind you want to read? Or do you only read the mind of whatever's in front of you? This if of course a design decision that you have to make. For consistency, you might just make it so that you would read the mind of whatever's in front of you.


If you could actually use the tool, which then asks you to pick an object, that would be an extra layer of complexity, but may be necessary for certain types of games.

How about "Bag of Sand"?  You could toss it in front of you to reveal traps on the floor (or invisible walkways over chasms), use it combat by throwing it in the faces of enemies and stunning them, or by even placing it on a switch to hold it down for you.  Maybe you could even use it as a sort of "magical shield" where you throw a bunch of sand in front of you and it dissipates incoming magical spells as the grains would scatter or take the hit for you.


What about "Bottle of Grease"?  You could throw it down on the ground in places to make enemies slide around and have trouble hitting you or getting to you, you could put it down behind really heavy statues to make them much easier to move, you could grease up wheels on mine carts to get them to go, you could put it on the hinges of some doors to get them to open.
Being able to change tile properties on the fly using some sort of tool would allow for some unique mechanics.


Tile properties could include dousing fire, perhaps burning down shrubs, or making things slippery.
 
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GaryCXJk

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Okay, here's how I see it.

You essentially have three kinds of tools, the offensive tool, thehelper tool and the progression tool. There can be overlap here. In the first Pokémon games you have the Cut ability, which is an attack (offensive), can be used to cut grass (helper) and can cut trees (progression).

Next, we have movement behavior. Is it an instant (does not need collision), a projectile (set path or homing) or an area of effect?

We also need to specify target. Now often it's something like self and other, but let's specify other, like, enemy or environment. This doesn't define where it triggers, only who.

These are just the basics here. What actually happens can also be defined.
 

captainproton

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Read minds is an interesting example.

First, do you choose whose mind you want to read? Or do you only read the mind of whatever's in front of you? This if of course a design decision that you have to make. For consistency, you might just make it so that you would read the mind of whatever's in front of you.

If you could actually use the tool, which then asks you to pick an object, that would be an extra layer of complexity, but may be necessary for certain types of games.
Well, the way it was handled in the GS games was basically another type of talking. You walk up to the characte , have Ivan use Mind Read, the animation plays and a dialogue window shows up with new text you didn't get from just talking. A lot of the NPCs didn't have interesting thoughts, but you sometimes learned the location of treasure, or hints about a dungeon or boss. Ivan also learned a skill called Reveal. It briefly created a grey haze over the screen. Sparkles would show up in hidden items. Emotion bubbles would hover over people experiencing strong feelings (usually indicating useful dialogue) and other balloons would show up over obstacles indicating which elemental power would be required to pass.

As an object tool (instead of a psychic power) you could have some kind of ear piece or magic hat which let's you read minds. The second sight effect of Reveal could be attributed to goggles or maybe even a Truth Incense or something.
 

Tsukihime

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It sounds like a lot of these behavioural tools are things that could be done already with events.


For example, if you want to turn the screen hazy and then have hidden event glitter, you can have each hidden event have a page that will activate when a switch is set. Once you use your skill or tool, a switch would be enabled, which would cause these events to begin glowing.


You would then disable the switch after the skill wears off and the events will no longer glitter.


So in terms of behavioural tools, there isn't much work to be done.


If anything, the framework would probably just make it easier to use the skill, rather than implementing the skill.
 

Oddball

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what about tools for making traps? like, maybe in a game were you have something tracking you through a dungeon, and you need to escape it, so you set traps to slow it down to allow you to escape
 

Starke

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Sorry for necro but this thread was never closed and I'm really interested to know if this was ever finished?
 
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Kes

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@Starke

Just because something hasn't been closed, that doesn't mean you are free to necro post in it.  In fact, by definition, a necro post can only appear in one which hasn't been closed.  As you are aware of the no necro posting rule, that means there's no excuse for it.

Hmm, it's being closed now, then.

The place to find out is Tsukihime's web site.  If it's not there, then it doesn't exist.
 
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