What does "Made with RMMV" mean?

Traverse

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It's really really simple: Is this being used as part of an RPG Maker game? If yes, then you are good. If you are using the RPG Maker game as an excuse to do something else, it is no longer an RPG Maker game.

Except the question here is "what constitutes an RPGMaker game"? At what point does the game become just "a game" and not specifically "an RPGMaker game"? What is the test used to determine this?

If all it takes to be considered an RPGMaker game is that the product is a playable, interactive game and that the RPGMaker engine was used for some part of the making process, then all you really need to do is deploy it with the editor and/or use some small portion of the default files and database in it - which, of course, people will argue was done "only to stay within the rule" even though by doing so, you technically satisfy the EULA portion that requires you to have used the "software" and programs/code included in the software.

The question is whether Enterbrain/Kadokawa will accept that and won't try to sue you - while the "official statement" Shaz provided is obviously not a legal contract, it does imply they might attempt to do so if they don't accept that you have used "enough" of the software to fulfill the terms.

Or does the term "RPGMaker game" have a stricter meaning than the broad assumption of being a game made using the engine? Does it have to be recognizably made with the engine? Identifiably so without looking at the code? Identifiably so by looking at the code? What is the threshold for recognizability? Does 50% of the code or more have to be unaltered RPGMaker defaults? 25%? Does the unaltered code have to be structurally integral to the game such that it would fail to run if removed? Does the unaltered code have to be consequential so that it could not easily be replaced by code from another source (in which case ease of replacement and consequential degree are also up for debate)?

Or is it some combination of distinctiveness, software dependence and ease of replacement that, as mentioned before, will likely need to be brought before an authority on case-to-case basis to determine?

Considering that RMMV is sold and marketed on the promise of allowing you to modify the engine (not the editor, but game code) using any text editor of choice, those are questions that really should be answered - otherwise you are being sold a product that appears to invite you to a buffet only to throw you out for eating too much food.
 
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TheoAllen

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And again as I said if you use MV to "generate" a code for you that later you alter the code as you like up to the point you don't need the engine, or you just use the engine "to stay within the EULA", then you're not making it in MV. The keyword I guess is not trying to stay within the engine, but you need to stay within the engine.

As for the code base, you can try to modify as you want, in fact it's all what the plugin does, right? Of course you can rewrite entirely the Game_Interpreter so that the eventing would be executed differently, but if you're still using eventing on the MV engine despite if you rewrite the entire Game_Interpreter for whatever reason. Then it still made in MV.

An example of your case where you brought up the card game, you said that you still use database editor on MV. The question would be, "are you using that database entry so that you still stay within the EULA?", if yes then you're trying to make a loophole. Because, if you say that as a yes, you probably have something in mind that there could be a better editor to create your own database, but you don't because it would break the EULA.

An example of my case of trying to make a shooting game. The majority of the game done outside from the database, it's all hardcoded even the database. If it's done in MV, it's not made in MV.

And again, if you're just using MV only a portion of their "generated code", why not use another engine? Unity was an example and I wasn't expecting you to answer why u didn't Unity.

There's no distinct hard line on "what is the test used to determine this" other than "If the majority of your game done in MV editor". It's like asking "At what point / how high you're considered to enter outer space", because there is no border on that other than general agreement of NASA.

And again, user who confused about the distinct hard line should contact the staff for their own case. There're always assumption and misunderstanding even if the rules are clearly stated for some people with some reasons.
 

Traverse

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There's no distinct hard line on "what is the test used to determine this" other than "If the majority of your game done in MV editor".

You realize if this was the case, most games ever made with MV could potentially fail this test.

The default JavaScript code (rpg_xx.js) created when you start a new project isn't changeable from the editor, it needs to be altered via external text editor. This code is already arguably "most of your game" since the art assets and audio don't count as game software (not just under IP law in general, but also under the EULA for MV where it is separated out as "company materials"). Furthermore, while the editor's database is a handy interface to generate/modify the JSON files in your project, you can very much open the JSON files in an external editor and modify them without the editor as well, using a third-party program.

This includes the map files too, I mean hell, TileD already exists and is promoted as an external map editor on this very forum. Since this is possible, you could theoretically make a whole MV game - not just a card game or shooting game but also an RPG - without touching the editor for most of the production. Unless there are obvious changes to the JSON files which could not have come from the editor, there is little way to tell whether the work was done via the MV editor or a third-party/external program.

So I don't think "majority of it done in the editor" could feasibly work as a test since the core code (which is most of the game) isn't accessible from the editor to begin with and you can't tell whether the other files are modified by the editor or something else.

The question would be, "are you using that database entry so that you still stay within the EULA?"
The only person who could truthfully answer that question is the developer, who obviously would not say "yes" if he thought he could get in trouble for it.

In fact, he could just say "no, I used it because MV already provided a convenient database for it" and nobody could say it was a lie or even abusing the program, because the whole point of using a game engine is to make it more convenient to make games. So he's still just using it the way it was meant to.
 
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TheoAllen

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You realize if this was the case, most games ever made with MV could potentially fail this test.
I'm not sure why would you think of this. People are still using MV editor for majority of their game production, why fail?

The default JavaScript code (rpg_xx.js) created when you start a new project isn't changeable from the editor, it needs to be altered via external text editor.
True, but those script are core, and the core needs json files that is generated from MV editor.

Furthermore, while the editor's database is a handy interface to generate/modify the JSON files in your project, you can very much open the JSON files in an external editor and modify them without the editor as well, using a third-party program.
If you're editing json files or whatever using external editor and that's the majority of your game production, the it falls below "the engine is no longer needed" other than just to "generate" a code from starting a project.

This includes the map files too, I mean hell, TileD already exists and is promoted as an external map editor on this very forum. Since this is possible, you could theoretically make a whole MV game
TileD is already been discussed in previous pages.

you could theoretically make a whole MV game - not just a card game or shooting game but also an RPG - without touching the editor for most of the production.
Then again it means "the editor is no longer needed so it isn't made with MV, but made with other editor/text editor".

Unless there are obvious changes to the JSON files which could not have come from the editor, there is little way to tell whether the work was done via the MV editor or a third-party/external program.

So I don't think "majority of it done in the editor" could feasibly work as a test since the core code (which is most of the game) isn't accessible from the editor to begin with and you can't tell whether the other files are modified by the editor or something else.
This is true, however, the whole discussion is not about to test or proof that the other games falls or not into this category. It's about your guidelines to create a game using MV engine, and to know your End User License Agreement. And as I said again, if you and yourself confused if your game, specifically, breaking or not breaking the EULA, go contact the staff.
 

Traverse

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True, but those script are core, and the core needs json files that is generated from MV editor.

Wrong.

The JS files, the JSON files, the index.html file, all of these are available directly from the NewData folder when you install RMMV. The editor will copy these files into your new project when use it to start a new project, but you do not have to do that.

You can manually copy these files from NewData without ever touching the editor. In fact, you can open the index.html file from NewData and it will actually run a game (with nothing but one map and the default party, but it will run).

I'm not sure why would you think of this. People are still using MV editor for majority of their game production, why fail?

Because, technically, they're not.

You mentioned TileD was addressed earlier in the thread. The argument brought up was that the map files are not the entire game. This is true - maps are only part of the game. But this means you have to ask what the "majority" of the game actually is and the answer is obvious - the much larger part of the game is contained in all the JS files that RMMV gives to you by default. That is most of your game and it does not need the editor to be accessed or created.

Most people never touch the JS files at all. So they are not using the editor for most of their game, unless you want to call database management and eventing most of your game. And if they're using something like TileD, they're not even touching the JSON files with the editor either.

If you want to say that eventing is most of your game, then the test is basically "if it doesn't rely on the default eventing system, it is not an RMMV game". If this is the case, it should be clarified. But I don't think it is - at least, I have not seen anybody suggest that reliance on the eventing system is what determines whether a game is an RPGMaker game.
 
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TheoAllen

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Wrong.

The JS files, the JSON files, the index.html file, all of these are available directly from the NewData folder when you install RMMV. The editor will copy these files into your new project when use it to start a new project, but you do not have to do that.

You can manually copy these files from NewData without ever touching the editor. In fact, you can open the index.html file from NewData and it will actually run a game (with nothing but one map and the default party, but it will run).
You missed my point. I'm not talking about "creating a new project", I'm talking about "working on a project".
Does MV not generating any JSON files when you make a new database and saved it?
If not then what is MV editor basically does?

Because, technically, they're not.
Technically they may not, but practically they are. We are not talking about the essence of the code itself, we're talking about if you're opening the editor to work with them or not despite the end result of it. People are still using MV editor, open them, and work their game with MV editor.

That is most of your game and it does not need the editor to be accessed or created.
You're keeping the loop. I'm not sure why it's hard to understand that if you work on your game by opening the editor (majority of time), it's made from MV, otherwise it isn't. It's made by... TileD and notepad or whatever text editor your have. You're taking the part of the codes and call it a day, and you're forgetting to work with MV editor. You're like saying "Oh this part of the code is cool, let me take this part and screw the rest, even the editor". Then it's not made by MV. You're always keeping it as the end result or the core essence of the code. While the whole discussion is about, if you're working with your project by opening MV editor and working on the database using it.

In this case (I believe), if you're making a completely different game that rely on text editor most if not all of the time, then it's not made by MV. However, (again) do ask the staff for clarification to this case whether if it's allowed (to use RTP) or not. I never get bored to remind you to ask the staff for particular case if you're confused about your project.

Most people never touch the JS files at all. So they are not using the editor for most of their game
I don't understand the not touching JS files means not using the editor.
 

Traverse

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You missed my point. I'm not talking about "creating a new project", I'm talking about "working on a project".
Does MV not generating any JSON files when you make a new database and saved it?
If not then what is MV editor basically does?

The only new JSON files it generates from scratch is the map files (that is, Map002+, Map001.json is already included in the NewData folder) AFAIK. The Actor.json, System.json, Enemies.json and all the rest of the database JSON files are already in NewData by default.

All the editor does is, literally, edit those existing files. It's like opening them up like a text document and changing/adding new stuff into it, except the MV editor provides a convenient graphical interface to simplify it for you instead of you having to type {"id":5,"battlerName":"Actor1_12","name":"NewActorName"} etc. etc. by hand into the JSON file yourself. Which you can, if you wanted to.

We are not talking about the essence of the code itself, we're talking about if you're opening the editor to work with them or not despite the end result of it. People are still using MV editor, open them, and work their game with MV editor.
While the whole discussion is about, if you're working with your project by opening MV editor and working on the database using it.

You are not getting what I am saying.

Let me make it as clear as I can - if I start a new project from scratch, make some maps, add some actors - all using the MV editor, no text editor or TileD or anything else - and then package it and release it, "most" of this project can STILL be considered as not having been made in the editor.

Why? Because "most" of the game - the core code, the input APIs, the graphics rendering logic, the event interpreter - all of that was from those JS files that come from NewData during the initial MV installation and is not made by the editor, but just copied from the NewData folder. It is code supplied with RMMV but not part of the editor. Unlike the case of VX/Ace, it cannot even be accessed from the editor.

You and I have not, cannot and likely never will be able to use the MV editor to make or alter these JS files, which will comprise most of the game. Therefore, even if someone has spent 100 hours mapping and eventing in the editor, the core code - which is most of your game - has not been made in the editor.

Only "some" of this game has been made with the editor, this portion being a few maps and extra information in the JSON database files (which were also not initially generated from the editor to start with).

Your standard wasn't "some" of the game needs to be done in the editor. Your standard was "most" of the game done in the editor. So by default, since most of their game has still not made using the editor, even if they have used it to tweak "some" of the JSON files using it, they will fail the "majority made in MV editor" criteria.
 

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except the MV editor provides a convenient graphical interface to simplify it for you instead of you having to type
Which is ... you're using MV editor to edit those files.

You are not getting what I am saying.
And you're not getting what I'm saying.

Let me make it as clear as I can - if I start a new project from scratch, make some maps, add some actors - all using the MV editor, no text editor or TileD or anything else - and then package it and release it, "most" of this project can STILL be considered as not having been made in the editor.
You buy MV, means you buy the premade js files, and those files have to be "edited" majority by the editor. In this case, the JSON files is edited by the editor.

The dev is saying "You buy my product, so here are the premade script files, this is the RTP, and here is the editor to work with it. You buy my product to take the RTP only? no you can't do that. You buy my product to take the code only? no, you can't do that, you can't use my RTP in that case."

Why? Because "most" of the game - the core code, the input APIs, the graphics rendering logic, the event interpreter - all of that was from those JS files that come from NewData during the initial MV installation and is not made by the editor
I know this logic actually.

which is most of your game - has not been made in the editor.
Again, you're keeping it as the essence of the actual code. While I'm saying about "do you open editor while working on your game?"

Your standard wasn't "some" of the game needs to be done in the editor. Your standard was "most" of the game done in the editor.
It's most, because the premade script wasn't done by you. You create the game content most of them using the editor. Will the framework of the game itself creates a game? no, it's the content that creates the game after the framework. Maybe, I should have said the game contents at the very beginning because it's the MV editor job.

Will the statement "Most of game content should be made using the editor" acceptable for you?
 

DivideByZero

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What about edge cases where you have expanded the hell out of RPG Maker via DLL (which is what I am currently doing), you are not necessarily using the supplied RTP's, and making a game that no one would recognise as being made in RPG Maker?

Say the game goes on to be a massive success? The developer of RPG Maker would be using you as the 'poster child' ('look what can be done with our product'), while at the same time be a borderline 'not a valid RPG Maker game' going by this thread, being 50% made in editor and 50% made in C++.
 

Traverse

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It's most, because the premade script wasn't done by you. You create the game content most of them using the editor. Will the framework of the game itself creates a game? no, it's the content that creates the game after the framework. Maybe, I should have said the game contents at the very beginning because it's the MV editor job.

I was actually going to mention this in the previous post:
Under these circumstances, you can only consider "most" of this hypothetical cookie-cutter MV project to have been done in the editor if you either: A- Ignore all the underlying JS code and only consider the maps, database and events to be part of the game or B - Look at time spent working on the project in the editor, which will automatically disqualify any game which uses custom plugins/scripts that took longer to develop than it took for the database and mapping aspect of the project to have been done.

So right now, you are basically saying that Option A is what you were referring to. That you will only look at the contents that can be edited in the MV editor itself and ignore the JS code that can't be accessed by it.

The problem with this is that if you completely ignore all the underlying JS code - then will there be a problem if somebody replaces 90% of the core JS files with their own custom stuff as long as he uses the MV editor to edit his JSON files?

I suspect you and many people would say yes, but you can't both say "I don't consider the JS files part of the game" only when looking at one game that has all the default JS files and then turn around and say "I consider JS files part of the game" for another game that has replaced all of the JS files.
 

TheoAllen

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@DivideByZero Been hearing modified RGSS3 dll is illegal, however, creates a new dll or creates a completely different game.exe is fine. But this topic is for MV, you may want to create a new one.

EDIT: Writing a reply for the ninja post... wait
 

Shaz

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o_O

This thread is giving me a cerebral hemorrhage.

I daresay those two statements were made in entirely different contexts, which you didn't take into account at all. "If you have to" and "just because you can" are not the same thing.

Why does it have to be so difficult? Why can't people just use common sense and honesty?

Surely you, the developer, know whether you're using MV to make your game or not? If you have to get someone else to confirm it, or you're trying to justify it so you can use the resources, then maybe you're not. Perhaps the question should be, "Would I still want to claim it's made with MV if I weren't using the RTP?"
 

TheoAllen

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The problem with this is that if you completely ignore all the underlying JS code - then will there be a problem if somebody replaces 90% of the core JS files with their own custom stuff as long as he uses the MV editor to edit his JSON files?
My take (I'm not the official staff), if you modified 90% of the core JS files, but in the end, you're still using MV editor to create the contents for your game, then yes it's made by MV.

I suspect you and many people would say yes, but you can't both say "I don't consider the JS files part of the game" only when looking at one game that has all the default JS files and then turn around and say "I consider JS files part of the game" for another game that has replaced all of the JS files.
The question is simple, do you use MV editor or not?
 

Traverse

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The question is simple, do you use MV editor or not?

I would like to point out that there is one certain JS file that can be accessed and edited by the MV editor: plugins.js

The answer to that question for someone who has mainly been working out of a text editor to make/modify custom JS files (which, again, is completely encouraged by the MV advertising material) while still making sure his game is made with MV would be "Yes, I need to use the MV editor to load these custom plugins, which just happen to replace 90% of the default JS that shipped with the game (as well as edit a few of my JSON database files)".

Which, I suspect, is an answer that would not please some people.
 

DivideByZero

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Perhaps the question should be, "Would I still want to claim it's made with MV if I weren't using the RTP?"

To show what can be done with the product if you really try. Are you suggesting that RPG Maker is merely just the graphical and audio assets that come with it?

Surely the developers must hate being 'pigeon holed' with the typical 'RPG Maker looking' games that flood the internet. If this isn't the case and they don't like people pushing the limits of the engine then I might be in the wrong place.

(To be clear I am not talking about doing anything illegal like reverse engineering the DLL's! Just talking about adding plugins here. I have no interest in modifying existing engine DLL's etc... which is a clear violation of any EULA out there)
 

TheoAllen

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I would like to point out that there is one certain JS file that can be accessed and edited by the MV editor: plugins.js

The answer to that question for someone who has mainly been working out of a text editor to make/modify custom JS files (which, again, is completely encouraged by the MV advertising material) while still making sure his game is made with MV would be "Yes, I need to use the MV editor to load these custom plugins, which just happen to replace 90% of the default JS that shipped with the game (as well as edit a few of my JSON database files)".

Which, I suspect, is an answer that would not please some people.
Next question: Do you also create your game contents mainly from the text editor? Or do you use MV only to load the plugins?

Edit: Nvm, basically just read Andar's post below
 
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Andar

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Perhaps you should think about this from another point of view:

Kadokawa needed to restrict the use of the RTP to prevent it to be used outside the area where their contracts limit it - they would have had to pay the artists a lot more for completely unrestricted use.
On the other hand they didn't want to fix down specific rules like "you can't change this", because that would create absolute limits on the user of RMMV.

So instead they adopted something like a fluid percentage - if the total change of the package is beyond that, use of RTP is no longer allowed.
That they didn't set specific rules is based on generosity toward the users, allowing them to decide on a case by case base what they would allow and what not. But if they make such a case decision, then that decision will be legal no matter what you try to read into the EULA.

Trying to find legalese to go beyond their decision will have only one result: forcing the company to revoke the generous allowance by putting hard rules into when not to use the RTP.

If you want to prevent ruining that generosity for everyone, then I suggest the following:
Come up with a specific case of what you want to do in your project, explain what exactly you want to change (instead of vague ideas) and then accept the resulting ruling if your specific project will be allowed to use the RTP or not.

If there is ever a general, non-specific ruling on the use of the RTP, that general ruling will be restrictive - the IP laws are structured in such a way that the companies have no other choice but be restrictive in general rulings.

So please stop trying to force such a restrictive ruling on us all. Everyone will loose if you force a non-specific ruling by such behaviour as has been seen here on this and similiar topics.

ANY GENERAL RULING WILL BE A "NO". there is no choice due to the way copyright laws work internationally.
It is the generosity of Kadokawa to allow specific case-by-case decisions on the use of the RTP, please don't ruin that for everyone by trying to force a general rule on us.
 

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To show what can be done with the product if you really try. Are you suggesting that RPG Maker is merely just the graphical and audio assets that come with it?

I don't understand how any of your response relates to the part of my post you quoted. Did you mean to quote someone else?
 

DivideByZero

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But if they make such a case decision, then that decision will be legal no matter what you try to read into the EULA.

The EULA is the legal agreement. The EULA states you can use the RTP's however you like as long as the game is built in RPG Maker. Doesn't matter what supposedly 'official' statements are made in a random thread on a forum.

If the executable is created in RPG Maker, the game is legally made in RPG Maker. Simple as that, doesn't matter how the files are edited or created.

If it did matter it would open up a huge can of worms.

Consider how a game is created. You need a plethora of external tools - Photoshop, Illustrator, Blender, Audacity, GarageBand, etc. The list is endless.

At what point can the developer say 'Ok you have used too many other tools to make your game, no more RTP for you!!'.

They wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on, it is written in the EULA, which is the legal document you agreed to when installing. The legal document goes both ways.
 

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