What is the deal on Visustella? (And commercial projects)

[scribble212]

So clearly Visutella's plugins are amazing. Apparently though, they seem to have a tight grip on their stuff to the point it makes me hesistant to use their plugins. There are creators that are generous and are for 'the community', but they seem to be the opposite. It's a shame because there are some really helpful plugins (like gab window).

I've looked at their eula thing and it says that plugins can indeed be used for commercial projects, with credit. However, how 'secure' are these permissions? I'm working on a project that would be commercial. Visutella make me nervous that these permissions could suddenly be whipped out under my feet - or at least make me feel that I shouldn't get too comfortable with their plugins. I'm looking for advice here.

 

[Shaz]

Visutella make me nervous that these permissions could suddenly be whipped out under my feet

What in their terms of use gives you that feeling?

You can use the plugins for commercial games. Give credit. End of story.

 

[TheAM-Dol]

So clearly Visutella's plugins are amazing. Apparently though, they seem to have a tight grip on their stuff to the point it makes me hesistant to use their plugins. There are creators that are generous and are for 'the community', but they seem to be the opposite. It's a shame because there are some really helpful plugins (like gab window).

I've looked at their eula thing and it says that plugins can indeed be used for commercial projects, with credit. However, how 'secure' are these permissions? I'm working on a project that would be commercial. Visutella make me nervous that these permissions could suddenly be whipped out under my feet - or at least make me feel that I shouldn't get too comfortable with their plugins. I'm looking for advice here.

I'm still fairly new to the RM scene, but I feel confident in saying that most commercial plugins are not insidious enough to retroactively change terms, considering Yanfly has been around for a long time. You'll be okay on that front.
I do agree that VisuaStella kind of rubs me the wrong way, especially the presentation and pricing of some of their stuff, but both of those things are very subjective. If you're fine with those subjective elements, then I think you'll be fine using their plugins.

 

[bgillisp]

There's an easy way. Once you buy a plugin you have it by the license file that comes with it. That cannot be revoked or taken away barring you doing something really hidiously illegal (and even then might not be able to be revoked). Just save that copy of the license and you are good.

 

[KawaiiKid]

There are creators that are generous and are for 'the community', but they seem to be the opposite. It's a shame because there are some really helpful plugins (like gab window).

There was a time where Yanfly made all his plugins for free, and just accepted donations and eventually a Pat-reon. However, his work kept getting stolen and put into other packs or the code itself actually stolen for other plugins that other people then sold. This happened many times, so he decided to stop making his plugins for free around then end of MV's lifecycle.

When MZ came out, he got a team together that now make all these plugins that he used to make on his own for free, and they now sell for a profit.

This all being said, I can't blame the guy for what happened or how he reacted. If you put in a ton of effort into making free programs for the community, and people kept stealing it to turn a profit, it would upset me as well. Yanfly is the main guy when it comes to rpg maker plugins, and I have supported him not only financially through donations, but also ******* since 2015 for MV.

However, I do not support VisuStella. For one, their pricing is incredibly (almost ludicrously) high. And another is that lot of their code is just remakes of what Yanfly already made for MV, a lot of the time having content cut from it that was in MV.

I definitely see where you're coming from when you say they are not "for the community", and I agree, that is no longer the case. They are a business now, and run as such. Yanfly's good will when it came to MV was abused, and thus the entire RPG maker community suffers from the transgressors that took advantage of him.

I believe MV is still on sale though, and it offers 99% of what MZ offers, and also has infinitely more plugins, including Yanfly's entire library (which covers 99% of everything VisuStella has made, and about 50 more plugins on top) for $5 on his pat-reon.

P.S: Please don't take this as me being negative towards Yanfly or VisuStella, because that isn't the case. I was just trying to point out that in the past Yanfly WAS about the community, and made everything for free, was taken advantage of, so switched to being a business instead.

P.PS: Had to make the actual site edited for Pat-reon since the site blocks usage of that.

 

[123edc]

well i'm not long enough in this community, to realy have a solid opinion on that matter ... but the stuff i noticed from reading through forum posts here is that it seems, like they had some kind of unfair headstart towards other creators

also, when i bought mz and started looking for plugins
[god bless me, that i only bought assets so far ... they literally announced unite a couple of days after me buying x.x] i kind of noticed ... well ... some kind of monopoly situation out there

the first question i often read was: is it compatible with visu ...
followed by a: no, well, then, no, but sorry, no ...

and since all of their stuff seems to be obfuscated [which especially hurts smaller/newer/less known developers from rising] ... well, i have the feeling, that [monopoly coupled with obfuscation] realy hurts the community as a whole

and yeah, their pricing is ridiculous [i mean 290$ is literally the price tag for over 7 whole maker (!)] ... and the "bundle" PR-action (well ... they did start outsourcing into other "but this and that and is not part of that 100$) ... seemed kinda scammy to me

but yeah, it's a buisness of theirs ...
you either buy it or leave it ...


and honstly, i'm more angry at the RM-devs,
since [again with the half-assing ... same as with many assets] many of these plugins should have been standard RM functionality to begin with ...

 

[Arthran]

@scribble212
There are some negative things that (arguably) might be fair to say about VisuStella, but I don't think that your particular concern is one that you need to worry about. They are run by people who have been respected members of the community for over a decade (or something along those lines), and have no history of screwing people over, so I wouldn't worry about it. One of those people is even an employee of the company that publishes RPG Maker.

There's an easy way. Once you buy a plugin you have it by the license file that comes with it. That cannot be revoked or taken away barring you doing something really hidiously illegal (and even then might not be able to be revoked). Just save that copy of the license and you are good.

Actually, VisuStella plugins don't come with a EULA, nor do they ever actually explicitly state that your purchase is in exchange for a license of any sort, either perpetual or otherwise. All they have is a "Terms of Use", which do include text which would allow them to revoke your usage if they were so inclined:

1. These plugins may be used in free or commercial games provided that they have been acquired through legitimate means at VisuStella.com and/or any other official approved VisuStella sources. Exceptions and special circumstances that may prohibit usage will be listed on VisuStella.com.

...

8. Any extensions and/or addendums made to this plugin's Terms of Use can be found on VisuStella.com and must be followed.

I'm not saying that VisuStella would screw people over. But if they ever wanted to, it seems like their bases are probably covered. As far as I can tell, when you purchase their plugins, what you're actually purchasing is simply the right to download the plugin... not an actual license to use it. You're just inherently allowed to use it, provided that you managed to download it from a legitimate source, and provided that your usage doesn't run afoul of any exceptions that they decide to list on VisuStella.com.

If they decide to list "any game made by bgillisp" as an exception on their website, then it seems like you'd be in violation of their ToS if you were to use their plugins in your game. I don't think you would really have any recourse.

 

[bgillisp]

Actually, no. Then you screenshot their TOS they posted with the date and that is the license they have to honor as that is the one you bought it on. And anyone who didn't you just see in court.

 

[Arthran]

Actually, no. Then you screenshot their TOS they posted with the date and that is the license they have to honor as that is the one you bought it on. And anyone who didn't you just see in court.

The problem is that the TOS is not in your favor. It explicitly states that they're allowed to create usage exceptions at any time, and that you must adhere to those exceptions. I don't think that taking it to court would really work out too well for you, since you would just be showing the court that you agreed to this.

 

[bgillisp]

US court also regularly votes against tyrrenical ToS though. The precident is there.

Though it really should not matter. If they did that the backlash would be so bad it would kill MZ.

PS: I also have a printed TOS myself with their assets, so no idea why people say there is none. Its in writing and would have to be honored. That should end the debate.

 

[Arthran]

US court also regularly votes against tyrrenical ToS though. The precident is there.

Though it really should not matter. If they did that the backlash would be so bad it would kill MZ.

PS: I also have a printed TOS myself with their assets, so no idea why people say there is none. Its in writing and would have to be honored. That should end the debate.

I think if it was a type of situation where VS decided that they want to prohibit the usage of their plugins in adult games, or games with some type of controversial content, or something like that, the courts would likely side with them. Maybe you could get a refund out of the situation, but I don't think that the courts would make some type of ruling that forces them to allow somebody else to use their copyrighted intellectual property when they wish otherwise. But I'm no attorney.

The debate was never whether or not there is a TOU. The TOU is commented into every plugin file. What I was saying is that the terms they have listed don't protect you from having them revoke your right to use the plugins--they pretty clearly protect VisuStella's right to prohibit your use the plugin.

But in any case, I agree that there is nothing to fear. I was just pointing out a likely source of the OP's concern.

For one, their pricing is incredibly (almost ludicrously) high.

Actually, $100 for 75 plugins is incredibly cheap. Try to commission a programmer to make just one of those plugins for you, and you'd likely have to spend multiple hundreds of dollars, if not into the thousands. And then multiply that by 75... The only real complaint that I have with VisuStella is their stubborn insistence on obfuscating their code.

If their plugins weren't obfuscated, I'd happily pay twice what they're asking. But I wouldn't use the obfuscated ones even if you paid me to.

 

[TheAM-Dol]

$100 for 75 plugins is incredibly cheap

Yes and no. The difference is that when you commission a plugin, that's exclusively yours, so unless you give the dev permission to resell the plugin you commissioned, they won't ever earn anything else from developing that plugin, therefore, the cost has to be high.
A plugin developed for retail is intended to have the cost of development subsidized by the number of sales it will receive.

In other words, yes, you are correct, but it's... Kind of like comparing apples to oranges... Except they're still kind of similar, so I guess it's like comparing grapefruit to lemons.

Anyways, I just see this argument a lot for many different types of things, and I feel like it inherently tends to marginalize the actual point of the discussion.
I mean, we could ideally use the same discussion for gas prices. "Well $5 is pretty cheap when you consider how much it costs to refine a barrel of crude", it just doesn't benefit anyone.

 

[Arthran]

Yes and no. The difference is that when you commission a plugin, that's exclusively yours, so unless you give the dev permission to resell the plugin you commissioned, they won't ever earn anything else from developing that plugin, therefore, the cost has to be high.
A plugin developed for retail is intended to have the cost of development subsidized by the number of sales it will receive.

In other words, yes, you are correct, but it's... Kind of like comparing apples to oranges... Except they're still kind of similar, so I guess it's like comparing grapefruit to lemons.

Anyways, I just see this argument a lot for many different types of things, and I feel like it inherently tends to marginalize the actual point of the discussion.
I mean, we could ideally use the same discussion for gas prices. "Well $5 is pretty cheap when you consider how much it costs to refine a barrel of crude", it just doesn't benefit anyone.

I do agree that it's kind of like comparing apples to oranges. But the thing is, sometimes in life, you're faced with a choice between apples and oranges... and in those situations, it's okay to compare apples to oranges.

What I mean is, suppose that I absolutely want the functionality that those 75 plugins offer, and I have 3 ways to obtain that functionality: pay VisuStella $100, spend a thousand hours (probably a severe underestimate) coding them myself, or pay a freelance programmer $100,000 to code them for me. In that situation, I've got no choice but to compare those three possible solutions against each other, even though they aren't all "apples".

In that situation, I'd probably try to assign a monetary value to each of the non-monetary costs/benefits that each solution holds for me (as the end user), so that I could try to get a more accurate basis for comparison. For example, I'd probably try to assign a monetary value to the 1000 hours of my own labor that I'd have to pour into option 2, and it'd be worth quite a bit to me. Then I'd try to assign a value to the exclusivity thing that you mentioned. Being honest, in this particular situation, it'd be worth about $0 to me... since I'd gain absolutely nothing by having my own private versions of plugins with the exact same functionality that other people already have access to. Then I'd probably try to assign a value to the fact that option 1 results in me getting the plugins immediately, whereas the other two options have a potentially lengthy wait time. I'd try to assign a value to the fact that option 2 would give me more control/customization. Etc.

You don't really need to worry about the behind-the-scene factors, like whether they're intended to be subsidized and whatnot... How the programmer intends to make his/her money doesn't really matter so much in this type of situation. You really just need to focus on the parts that hold either a value or a cost to *you* as the end user. In the end, after trying to normalize the 3 options as best as possible, in order to try to compare them against each other, most people would probably find that the VisuStella option winds up ridiculously cheap compared to the other options.

Realistically, there are probably other options too (such as searching for alternative plugins, giving up on the plugins, etc). I was just trying to keep it simple, to illustrate why my previous comparison can actually be relevant.

 

[Zeriab]

I don't understand why anyone would think VS as being scammy. They are quite upfront with what you get for what you pay and that their code is obfuscated.

As for whether the value the provided by the plugins is worth the price remember to consider the impact of using obfuscated plugins in your game. Doing so will increase the effort (cost if you will) of debugging when a trace goes through an obfuscated area. The issue doesn't have to be in the obfuscated code itself for it to impact the debugging negatively.
This may also incur monetary costs should you hire scripter for debugging issues. Being able to hire a scripter will likely also increase in difficulty since dealing with obfuscated code is annoying.

The value provided by the plugins may still be worth it. Just try to consider all the costs when evaluating.

P.s. always store all your licenses/tou's locally. The internet is a volatile place after all

*hugs*
- Zeriab

 

[Arthran]

As for whether the value the provided by the plugins is worth the price remember to consider the impact of using obfuscated plugins in your game. Doing so will increase the effort (cost if you will) of debugging when a trace goes through an obfuscated area.

Another thing worth noting is that their method of obfuscation actually has a very significant negative impact on performance.

 

[Shaz]

Please keep the thread on topic

This has nothing to do with people's opinions one way or the other on Visustella being worth the price, or the developers who contributed to it - that debate has been done to death and there's no need to start it all again. Please keep discussion focused on the terms of use.

You can use the plugins in commercial games. If you are worried about the type of game you are planning to make (horror, porn, etc) and wondering if they might turn around and say you can't use them in that type of game, best to come out and say it now, so you can get a direct answer. But I suspect that isn't your concern.

 

[Zeriab]

Contacting VS about your concerns is an option. Maybe they will respond, and maybe said response will clear some of your doubts. Can be worth a try.

Should you still feel uncomfortable then choosing not to go with VS is probably the right choice.

Getting a lawyer to go through the details is a frequent response on legal matters for good reasons, but is probably prohibitively expensive.

Good luck with your game ^^


@Arthran We don't really know that. While there may be an expectation of a negative performance impact we would need to measure and profile the obfuscated code against the unobfuscated code in a variety of scenarios.
Without that we cannot draw any real conclusions regarding the performance impact.

 

[DrBuni]

Actually, $100 for 75 plugins is incredibly cheap.

No, it really isn't. It is very expensive. Comparing a plugin pack with commissioning plugins makes no sense, it is not like Visustella plugins are perfectly tailored to one's specific project. I was perfectly fine with paying $30 (or how much it costed back then) for Yanfly's MV plugin collection, but $100 is ridiculous. You have to consider not only the amount of work and time the plugin devs put into the make, but also the target audience. I guarantee you most people using an engine such as RPG Maker are not swimming in money.

(didn't see the warning above, sorry).

 

[GodCiunas]

Personally I do use a good amount of visual stella's plugins. A few reasons, I have had fewer compatibility issues, their library is larger than most, their team is pretty on point with fixes and updates. Their tutorials are more in depth than most developers and honestly there marketing is cute and comfortable and exudes experience and since the library is large and their plugins are already compatible it makes the process easier for people who are learning to use RPG Maker, rather than talking to many devs for many plugins that do the same things, and in some cases never receiving a response or fix. Also in regards to the Eula the clause is upfront. Many companies have similar clauses usually hidden or deep in the user agreement. The clause is there to prevent the abuse of their product, not to take advantage of the consumer. As that would be mutually unbeneficial for Visual Stella as well.