What is your interpretation of a Myrmidon?

Frostorm

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So I'm a bit torn regarding this class atm. In Fire Emblem, Myrmidons are units that specialize in using Swords. However, historically, Myrmidons were mostly Spear+Shield users and were warriors under the command of Achilles. So which archetype do you guys think I should base them on? For context, the Myrmidon will be an intermediate class in my game.

If I make them Sword users, I'd make the class progression like so:
  • Squire
    • Knight
      • Dragoon
      • Guardian
    • Myrmidon
      • Berserker
      • Duelist
If I make them Spear users, I'd make the class progression like so:
  • Squire
    • Knight
      • Duelist
      • Guardian
    • Myrmidon
      • Berserker
      • Dragoon
Basically, Duelist and Dragoon switch places. Oh btw...
  • Berserkers specialize in heavy 2H weapons like greatswords, greataxes, etc.
  • Dragoons specialize in long-reach weapons like spears, lances, halberds, etc.
  • Duelists specialize in finesse-type weapons like katanas, rapiers, sabres, etc.
  • Guardians are tanks and thus specialize in using shields.
Edit: I currently have Myrmidons set as Spear users, which led me to group Berserker & Dragoon together since they both use fairly large weapons. However, I kinda prefer grouping the Dragoon with the Guardian since they both can wear Heavy armor. Thus, I'm leaning towards making the Myrmidon a sword-wielding unit despite it being less historically accurate. Thoughts?
 
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kirbwarrior

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Dragoon feels like an upgraded knight class, but then that's entirely my FF fan side showing. Knight -> Duelist doesn't make a whole lost of sense to me considering the significant change in sword types (knights want something with weight behind it, fencers need something light to maneuver well).

But that doesn't answer the actual question. Myrmidon... doesn't mean anything to me. And historically wouldn't make sense going into either Berserker or Duelist. However, those two classes do share a single weapon; Katana (both a finesse weapon and and often two handed one). That does fit the FE thing going on and it's not like Samurai would make sense as part of this list. Maybe Mercenary? Seems fitting to go either Duelist or Berserker and fills the same niche in FE.

Knight -> Dragoon and Knight -> Guardian both fit perfectly, conceptually and mechanically. Let them have their spears. Skimming over Wikipedia, I could almost see Myrmidon replacing Squire if you wanted. Either way, the other branch isn't as nice as that knight combo.
 

Frostorm

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Yea, I really like how the Knight's upgrades fit, with Dragoon and Guardian I mean. As for Myrmidon, my interpretation of them is basically that of a very offensively-focused melee unit, albeit with a bit below average durability. So mechanically, it makes sense for the Myrmidon class to upgrade into either Berserker or Duelist. But as you've mentioned, they don't fit that well thematically, especially Duelist.
  • Squire
    • Knight
      • Dragoon
      • Guardian
    • Myrmidon
      • Berserker
      • Blademaster?
In Fire Emblem, Myrmidon upgrades into Swordmaster. In which case, Blademaster shouldn't seem too out of place, right?
 

kirbwarrior

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As for Myrmidon, my interpretation of them is basically that of a very offensively-focused melee unit, albeit with a bit below average durability. So mechanically, it makes sense for the Myrmidon class to upgrade into either Berserker or Duelist.
Are you deadset on using Myrmidon? I love the name so I totally get if you are. If you're not, then there's likely a lot of ideas that fit this mechanic (Off the top of my head, Skirmisher or Guerrilla). Are there any other spear wielding classes? You could make one of them Myrmidon.

In Fire Emblem, Myrmidon upgrades into Swordmaster. In which case, Blademaster shouldn't seem too out of place, right?
Well, considering it's the same thing but with a cooler name, no, it doesn't feel out of place ;) But I do like the feel of Berserker and Blademaster being third tier classes and related. And the FE feel fits perfectly with Myrmidon.

Thinking on it more, Myrmidon is such a weird name for that class in FE. Just a random musing.
 

Frostorm

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I'm actually not dead set on Myrmidon at all. Totally open to suggestions. Knight gets heavy armor while Myrmidon (or w/e name it ends up with) only gets medium armor. Knight also gets to use shields. So those are the main differences. Whatever name it ends up with, it just needs to convey being squishier and more offensive than the Knight. I am set on Berserker though, but Duelist/Blademaster can also be changed if there's a better name. Also, bonus points if it also fits well with "Squire".
 
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Tiamat-86

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myrmidon is a 1h+shield user that has more shield based attacks then any other class.
captain america is technically a myrmidon
 

VegaKotes

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While I don't think there's much wrong with Myrmidon for a lighter swordsman class you could also go back to the Vagabond/Nomad naming scheme since both Blademasters and Beserkers can evoke the feeling of a wandering warrior. One being the old style Ronin, master of swordsmanship, and the other the wildman who fights alone with ferocity.

Regardless Fire Emblem has thoroughly painted the term Myrmidon into a swordsman class for me, haha. I'd never even heard the term prior to playing FE games.
 

alice_gristle

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Ya, I think about Greek warriors too when I hear "myrmidon", altho I also played GBA Fire Emblems... :biggrin: Imma mix up yo jams here and say that for a starter class, Squire suggests developing into Knight so much the whole tree looks skewed to me. Sorry honey! :kaoswt:
 

Frostorm

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I hear ya, that's why I'm actually thinking about changing out Myrmidon altogether in favor of something that more naturally evolves from the Squire.

Edit: How about this? Does it look more fitting if I rename Myrmidon -> Zealot and then rename Duelist/Blademaster -> Bladesong? Cuz I can kinda see a Squire becoming a Zealot, like if they're inducted into some kind of order, similar to the Knight.
  • Squire
    • Knight
      • Dragoon
      • Guardian
    • Zealot
      • Berserker
      • Bladesong
Thoughts? I think I'm actually taking a liking to this revision! The names even have similar lengths for each tier/group, lol!
 
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ericv00

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If you want to go the social class route along with your fighting development, you could go with Retainer. For that matter, if you are still worried about confusions with "Duelist", you could go for another social class term, Marquis.
 

Villhelm

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This might be a bit of a stretch from your original question, but throwing it out there if you want to add some thematic magic abilities into each of these.

Squire could ultimately build into four different variants of Knights:
  • Squire
    • Knight Templar
      • Holy Knight / Paladin
      • Dark Knight / Blackguard (I’m assuming with a bit of thematic changes to your Berserker skill names, a good chunk could work for this class)
    • Knight Mystic (or some other name that evokes a more arcane route)
      • Dragon Knight / Dragoon
      • Eldritch Knight / Spellsword (you could probably use a bunch of duelist skills here, and sprinkle in some utility, like dispelling, silencing, or arcane strikes)
 

Sullien

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I played Virtue's Last Reward so for me Myrmidons are cult-like, probably out of left field but I'd definitely imagine them a bit more magic/based than most other knight class variants.
 

Frostorm

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Most of my classes, except the pure caster classes, will be able to play as hybrids due to the elemental system I have. Basically, every unit gets 1 weapon class (which are the classes listed in this thread), and 2 elemental schools. So to build a "Paladin", you could go Guardian + Holy + (another element of your choice, or skip it in favor of raw stat boosts using leftover JP).

I did this cuz I really love the hybrid playstyle, it's always been my favorite. But I also leave enough flexibility so the player can invest however much or little where ever they want. So while I "only" have 12 classes, if you include the elemental "classes", you end up with 336 unique class combinations!

Anyway, this also means I try to keep these class skills elementally neutral. But I also plan on having skills that can incorporate whatever element affinity the user has, thus modifying the base skill in various ways depending on the affiliated element.
 
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Hungry Moogle

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Yea, Myrmidons remind me of this:
Personally, when I see that photo I think of Hoplites, who were the primary soldiers of the ancient Greek armies, and fought with spears & shields in battle.

Interestingly, in pre-industrial times the term Myrmidon was often used the same way that we use the word "robot" today. This is due to the Myrmidons of legend reputation of their extreme loyalty as well as the etymology of the word itself, which literally means "ant-people", and lent itself as a term for a person who mindlessly carry out orders, similar to how we use the word "drone" in modern times which itself originally referred to a male honey bee. So its the perfect word for a robot soldier or any other kind of 'soulless' entity that has no will of its own and mindlessly carries out orders of it master.

As to why Fire Emblem used the name Myrmidon in the English localization (in the original Japanese, the class was called 剣士 or Kenshi, literally translating as Swordfighter), presumably, the English translator was trying to go for a 'tribal warrior' feel for the class name, as in the Blazing Blade, as well as its prequel The Binding Blade, the class in those two games tended to be associated with Sacaean nomadic characters such as Lyn (yes, her class is Lord but she's clearly modelled on the Myrmidon class), Guy, Karel & his sister Karla, Fir & Rutger.
 
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Frostorm

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I kinda thought Myrmidons were like a subcategory of Hoplites, but specifically the ones under the command of Achilles. They were the "elite" unit, so to speak. An analogy would be how a Soldier is to Hoplite as a Marine is to Myrmidon.

But yea, now that you mention the etymology of Myrmidon, I'm even more reluctant to use that class name lol. Also, I wasn't aware translators were allowed to liberally interpret things as they see fit. I always imagined that the Japanese higher-ups would keep a tight leash on these things. For example, in the Dragonball series dub, the voice actors for Goku & Vegeta aren't allowed to make any changes whatsoever. I get that it's a different medium, but it's the same Japan -> US culture dynamic.

All in all, I think I've settled on changing Myrmidon -> Zealot after considering everything mentioned thus far. I'd like to thank everyone here for the immense help on this matter! :kaothx:
 

kirbwarrior

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So while I "only" have 12 classes
Considering there's seven in this thread alone, I'm guessing that's 12 base classes with 48 end choices?

Also, I really like Zealot, but I feel Mercenary fits thematically better.
I wasn't aware translators were allowed to liberally interpret things as they see fit.
Oh boy are they. Just check our 4kids and Ted Woolsey for some examples. It really, really depends on the person hiring the translators; Do they know the foreign language at all? Do they care what the end result is? Why are they hiring a translator?

Ted Woolsey was given a single month to translate various games (each) and a list of (draconian) rules he had to follow (for instance, no mention of alcohol or religion). Not a group he led, him alone. I'm surprised it worked out at all.
 

Piyan Glupak

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The Trojan War happened before the Greeks started using hoplites. Hoplites were an Iron Age phenomenon, and the Trojan War was late Bronze Age. [Hoplites had a fair amount of bronze armour, but spearheads and sword blades would be iron.
 

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