whats the difference between Sex and Porn in Games?

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Nightshade

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is there an actual difference. I'm making a Yuri Game and would like NSFW content in it BUT I do not want to make a porn game at all!

yes i do want sex with portraits maybe animations to go along with the NSFW scenes BUT i do not want it to be pornographic! there a story behind the relationship between the characters just not straight up sex. the game will not be based on sex alone so can anyone tell me the difference?

my two characters do eventually fall in love but my issue is the sex part. i would love for them to be able to BUT.... i don't want it to be pornographic which is to me just EWWW sex with no story behind it just darn right boring
 

sura_tc

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In general, at least *******-world wise, "porn" games mean hardcore with little regards to females.

What you are making is softcore, I believe. But both belong to NSFW anyway and must be classified as adult-content. If your game deals with realistic relationships, you should neither call it a sex nor porn game. I am not quite sure how to call it accurately though because, as long as it has nudity and sexual acts, it's an adult game regardless.
 

Nightshade

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In general, at least *******-world wise, "porn" games mean hardcore with little regards to females.

What you are making is softcore, I believe. But both belong to NSFW anyway and must be classified as adult-content. If your game deals with realistic relationships, you should neither call it a sex nor porn game. I am not quite sure how to call it accurately though because, as long as it has nudity and sexual acts, it's an adult game regardless.

Softcore huh that does put an interesting spin on it :) oooooooh!!!!! : O i just thought of something !! THANK YOU SURA!! your the best : D
 

BlueMoon

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The difference between a "pornographic" and a "hot/sex" content is determined by how much strongs are the contents examined.

By the way, pornographic is the general term for both the experiences: the real difference is between softcore and hardcore.
I mean, if in the content we're examining are manifestly visible sexual organs (full nudity) or scenes that are shows clearly sexual actions you're going for sure in the hardcore. On the other hand, if the sexual organs are hide and the content is developed in a soft way showing, but still recognizable, some sexual contents, you're in the softcore.
This is a difficult topic, because the line between the softcore and hardcore changes in relation to the law of each country. There are different courts judgment, for example, that manages differently the distribution of the softcore and hardcore material; In some countries, hardcore It can be considered illegal as well.
The real problem is to determine the age of the consumer of the pornographics contents: It's obvious, for the most of countries, that hardcore contents can be consumed only by the consumer that has reached the majority in relation to the law of its home country; on the other hand, the determination of the softcore is more difficult: for example, in Italy, I think that the softcore material, in relation to their strict contents, can be consumed from 14 years old (the softest one), but in general the consumers starts from 16 years old. It depends a lot on the contents. In particular, the most common experience is related to cinema and films, but the problem is solved by the film distribution itself communicating the starting age of the consumer itself.

In general, I agree that regardless of the softcore and hardcore, the thing you're working should be considered as a general adult-content, targeting only the players that have reached their majority, avoiding any complex PEGI or ESRB determination.
 

sura_tc

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You basically have two choices, go close to limit of NSFW content or go all the way.

From what I've seen you can't have both. Players who are attracted to your game by the word "NSFW" will be turned away if there are too little contents about it. This is basically why you see all those crazy porn games on *******. People basically want it hardcore.

If your game is really softcore and the adult content is subtle, I'd suggest just removing NSFW parts all together for boarder target audience.
 

Nightshade

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You basically have two choices, go close to limit of NSFW content or go all the way.

From what I've seen you can't have both. Players who are attracted to your game by the word "NSFW" will be turned away if there are too little contents about it. This is basically why you see all those crazy porn games on *******. People basically want it hardcore.

If your game is really softcore and the adult content is subtle, I'd suggest just removing NSFW parts all together for boarder target audience.

i understand. thank you both for your guideness :) much appreciated.
 

XIIIthHarbinger

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The primarily problem with this sort of thing, is as some people have already pointed out the line is VERY ARBITRARY games like those from The Witcher series have rather significant amounts of sex in them & aren't considered porn games. In some entries of the Saint's Row series you engage in prostitution & kill people by beating them to death with a giant purple dildo, yet again aren't considered porn games. Duke Nukem also has a rather large amount of nudity, sexual content, innuendo, etcetera, but isn't considered a porn game.

However, there also indie titles that have similar levels of sex & nudity to these games, that are considered porn games. Part of this is probably due to the fact that indie games tend to bypass things like the ESRB, which is also something that people who make porn & hentai games tend to do as well. & believe it or not, there are people who make hentai/porn games that are more than newgrounds flash game rule 34 parodies. & there are people who make a porn & nonporn version of their game, selling the nonporn version on vendors like steam & the porn version on vendors like DLsite.

So the lines in the indie scene can be pretty blurry, & honestly if someone with a decent amount of clout (popular game reviewer on youtube, gaming website with decent number of clicks, etcetera) labels your game a hentai/porn game, it will likely be classified as such going forward by other people. Because their video, blog, or review is going to pop up when people look for information on your game.

So I would say that when it comes to sexually related material, think of it as a blackhole; & understand that you won't be given the benefit of the doubt a major company would, & you don't have the voice to argue with someone who might decide to characterize your game in a way you don't intend. So the closer you get to NSFW material, the closer you will be getting to that event horizon & being sucked in. At which point it really won't matter what your intention was, because someone with a bigger voice than you, will have decided what your intention was for you.
 

kirbwarrior

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At which point it really won't matter what your intention was, because someone with a bigger voice than you, will have decided what your intention was for you.
It sounds like the important thing to figure out is how to avoid or change this. Any ideas?
 

sura_tc

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Big publishers can muscle their ways around. They've got the money after all. Indie devs don't, so we have to stick by rules.

The main problem for indie games is advertising.

If OP chooses to go NSFW, he can't post his work here. He can't post his work on most of conventional sites. Now, there are communities that focus on NSFW titles but crowds that hang around there only want porn and nothing else.

And audiences on conventional sites don't want porn, so it's better to stick to one side than trying to have both of the world.
 

Kes

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[mod]Just a general note[/mod]

We're fine so far, but please remember that this is a PG13 site, and minors could read this thread. Therefore some discretion in how you phrase things would be appreciated.

@kirbwarrior That is off-topic. Please do not hi-jack a thread with a different query. (And, imo, one which is not capable of being resolved here.)
 

kirbwarrior

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That is off-topic. Please do not hi-jack a thread with a different query.
My apologies, I thought it was on topic. It helps to be able to control this sort of thing for trying to actually find the line that separates the two. Otherwise it'll only be left up to opinion, which doesn't help someone when trying to make xyr game one or the other (which can apply to any two groups, such as trying to determine if your game is horror or simulation).

Many Visual Novels are considered NSFW but not porn, largely due to the focus on story or characterization instead of focusing on the explicitness of the scenes, even if those scenes are full blown explicit. I know of one in particular (KS) that has the ability to turn off those scenes but also turning off those scenes hurt the story (because you learn a lot about a character through them, and there isn't a way to do it without). It sounds like that's what @Nightshade wants to do, so if you advertise that and focus the game on story/characterization, then people probably won't even think about the explicit scenes.
 

XIIIthHarbinger

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Big publishers can muscle their ways around. They've got the money after all. Indie devs don't, so we have to stick by rules.

The main problem for indie games is advertising.

If OP chooses to go NSFW, he can't post his work here. He can't post his work on most of conventional sites. Now, there are communities that focus on NSFW titles but crowds that hang around there only want porn and nothing else.

And audiences on conventional sites don't want porn, so it's better to stick to one side than trying to have both of the world.

Not entirely accurate.

From what I've seen most sites allow a certain degree of NSFW content in the games that are allowed on their sites, but each tends to draw their proverbial "line in the sand" in very different & arbitrary places.

When a site lets you sell games like Duke Nukem Forever, Grand Theft Auto V, & The Witcher 3, from the triple A companies. There really isn't much left beyond actual porn flash games, content wise. & that's not even taking into account mods & patches, often available on those sites like Steam Workshop, that take what was an already MA games well past AO.

Furthermore, most of the people who play hentai/porn games, tend to also play other games as well. It's rather like those who read erotica, tend to be readers in general. So it's honestly not accurate to say those on more conventional sites don't want porn/hentai games, but rather that they aren't looking for them on conventional sites.

Though again that line is getting rather blurry, just have a look at some of the games Steam has released in the last twelve months.

The problem for the OP is the inherently fickle nature of the market, & how arbitrary conventional sites, game reviewers, gaming websites are in discerning what is or isn't an porn/hentai game versus just a game intended for Mature Audiences. The OP could make a game with content of about the level of what you would find in any given season of game of thrones, & they might not run into any problems, or they might have their game declared a porn/hentai game.

It sounds like the important thing to figure out is how to avoid or change this. Any ideas?

I honestly don't believe it can be changed, because it is a characteristic inherent to the market.

Gaming publication sites like Kotaku, prominent game reviewers on youtube like Total Biscuit, & game vending sites like Steam will always have a greater voice than some random indie dev just starting out. The number of people who are going to see your facebook page, or ******* page, or youtube demo; are dwarfed by those who will see the opinions from those other sources by rather impressive amounts. Unless you happen to be some kind of E-Celeb prior to making your game.

Additionally game vendors are always going to have arbitrarily different standards both between each other, & even the same vendor in different locations. For example just look how many Hitler mods you can find in Steam Workshops; conquer the world as Hitler in Civilization, kill people as Hitler in Hatred, etcetera, etcetera. Perfectly legal in some countries, not so much in others.

& it's not as though the situation is entirely due to malice or bad faith actions on the part of these actors. There are many any indie game dev, that use the indie route due to how it bypasses annoyances like the ESRB; & by extension blur the lines between porn/hentai games, & adult audience intended games. Because they make games whose sexual elements are as pronounced, as violence & gore is in a game like Mortal Kombat; but they are still actual games, rather than just an interactive skin flick.

It's rather like how television programs like Game of Thrones & Spartacus blurred that line in television, with graphic depictions of sex & violence not usually attempted by even rated R films, yet still having actual plots & well acted scenes. The OP can chose to contribute to that blurring in gaming by making the game they described, but there really is no guarantee anyone here can give them about potential consequences, or that they will get a fair assessment.
 

Gameisfun

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I believe there is a difference. If there is meaning behind it, for example the main hero and heroine created a new hero as a sequel through sex, there was meaning behind the act of interecourse.

If you choose to do it purely for fan service, that mostly mean fan service, meaning you want sex scene to sell your game.

In your case, the yuri relationship doesn't necessarily need to means purely fan service. It may mean the two female main character may have an intimate relation ship, which can mean they are somehow "connected" in some way.

The two characters may have a relationship that is much more meaningful than relationship with other relationship with other characters. Just because two character that are intimate does not mean fan service alone. If you are able to add meaning into the relationship, it can add flavor into the story overall.
 

Nightshade

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I believe there is a difference. If there is meaning behind it, for example the main hero and heroine created a new hero as a sequel through sex, there was meaning behind the act of interecourse.

If you choose to do it purely for fan service, that mostly mean fan service, meaning you want sex scene to sell your game.

In your case, the yuri relationship doesn't necessarily need to means purely fan service. It may mean the two female main character may have an intimate relation ship, which can mean they are somehow "connected" in some way.

The two characters may have a relationship that is much more meaningful than relationship with other relationship with other characters. Just because two character that are intimate does not mean fan service alone. If you are able to add meaning into the relationship, it can add flavor into the story overall.

oooooh!!! see that makes scene to me : o at first my MC is trapped in a demon dungeon after being caught and has to brake out. she met a girl and starts liking her after travailing with her for awhile. BUT i was thinking a different path to how they met? maybe her future lover brakes MC out of the demon dungeon doing a raid by her and her village :o but there goes another problem : o tying it together.

the MC is a werewolf that lost her memories. the whole story im trying to work out is MC is trying to remember who she is.

she falls for the first person that rescues her which happens to be a girl. but not at first or she slowly falls for the girl she traveling with after meeting her
 

Wavelength

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I've never verged into this area as a designer myself, but very simply put, I think that the direction of the emphasis is what separates sexual content from pornography in any art form, video games included.

Other important factors are how explicit the sex is (did the characters wake up in bed together, or were they having sex on-camera, etc.) and how graphic it is (are their privates showing or covered, is orgasm portrayed, in a novel how lurid was the detail, etc.), but I think the emphasis is the most important thing here.

If the emphasis is on the characters and their own sexual experience, that's sexual content without pornography. Usually, this sexual experience will either define the characters' relationship (or the characters themselves) for the audience in some way, or will affect the characters (or their relationship) in some way, or will affect the narrative - otherwise, like any other interaction, there would be no reason to show it.

If the emphasis is on the audience and their sexual (or voyeuristic) desires for what's onscreen (or in print), that's pornography. What's happening between the characters may be important, but it is less important than showing off something sexual in nature to the audience. "Fanservice" is a really good analogy to think of here - often the situation isn't even sexual to the characters, but only to the audience (because of a well-placed camera to offer a panty shot, etc.). Some fanservice is mild enough that it isn't considered pornographic, but the emphasis is in the same place.

A great example I can think of offhand of sexual content without pornography is the anime Nana. Throughout its ~50 episodes there are probably a dozen scenes that at least imply sex, and if I remember correctly, characters are shown nude in considerable detail during intercourse a few times. Yet, the emphasis is always on the passion and attachment that characters feel for each other. They are beautiful people, but they are not inviting you to feel the same passion they feel, and the neutral point-of-view direction doesn't invite you to feel anything sexual either. The sex isn't a show for you - it's a part of their lives that the story occasionally explores. Despite not being sexually titilating for the audience, it's still exciting and impactful to watch, because it means a lot for characters you care about (and you will care about Nana's characters!!), and you get to see it happen rather than being teased. I think this is a really cool, refreshing way to depict sex in anime, and I really hope to see more works take its example.
  • ((Whenever I mention Nana, I also feel compelled to note that while it's undeniably one of the best anime ever made, it's also extremely depressing at times - there's a run of episodes later on that feel like an unending series of hard emotional punches to the gut. So while I recommend it to everyone, and I recommend it doubly so here if you want to see a superb example of sex without porn - stay far away if you hate sad stories.))
 

XIIIthHarbinger

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@Wavelength
However, what is being emphasised is often a subjective determination.

While two people can watch the same film, they don't usually "see" the same film. One person's meaningful sex scene is another's gratuitous nudity. For example I've know people who have asserted that television shows like Game of Thrones & Spartacus are just soft core porn with a body count.

There is also the question of if & when secondary elements override primary elements, in matters relating to classification. Games where everything or very nearly everything potentially turns into a sex scene, are rather easy to classify as porn games. However, there are other games that blur that line by having strong sexual content within them, but also having that sexual content not being central to the game play, &/or being something that isn't necessarily part of the game for the most part, depending on player choice.

For example a game with a Femme Fatal protagonist who uses sex, deception, manipulation, thievery, & violence interchangeably; based on player choice. A Cersei Lannister simulator is you will. With how central sex could play a role, one could easily classify it as porn or erotica game if you prefer. On the other hand you have game routes that are nonsexual in nature, so is it still a porn game then?

While those games are certainly a minority in the indie scene (which is where most porn games are to be found), they do exist. & they along with games like The Witcher 3 & Duke Nukem from the triple A side of the house blur the distinction between these two groups more & more each year.

Honestly looking at how much things have shifted over the years, I expect the line between Mature Audience games & Adults Only games to become even more ambiguous.

Not to mention there is the rather comical state of affairs we find ourselves in; where depicting having your player character violently decapitating someone in all its bloody glory in games like Mortal Kombat are perfectly fine, but games where your player character is depicted as enjoying consensual sex with another person with any kind of detail is treading dangerous ground.
 

Wavelength

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For example a game with a Femme Fatal protagonist who uses sex, deception, manipulation, thievery, & violence interchangeably; based on player choice. A Cersei Lannister simulator is you will.

I laughed out loud at your encapsulated description of that game as "A Cersei Lannister Simulator". :guffaw:

You make a very good point that the emphasis can be a subjective determination - yes, it can be, but I still think that doesn't negate how important emphasis and direction are in separating pornography from simple sexual content. When you have one without the other (e.g. obvious panty shots that the audience sees but the characters don't), that's pretty strong evidence that the work leans in one direction.

Game of Thrones, as you mentioned, is a great example of a show whose sex and nudity are highly subjective. I can buy the argument that many of GoT's sex scenes are softcore porn - the scenes do occasionally service the plot in some way, but sometimes they don't - and these scenes usually start out with extensive clips of the characters building toward orgasm - and often include characters where sex isn't really part of their persona, like Ygritte or Robb. On the other hand, these are semi-infrequent scenes in a work that on the whole is not overly sexual, so it feels very unfair to call the entire work 'porn' (that's almost like calling Team Fortress an RPG) - at most it has some pornographic content, right?

As far as games where sex is built into some of the game's core routes, and not built into others, that's a really interesting idea and I think it's largely untreaded territory. (Interstate Zero is the one game in that vein that comes to mind for me, though that's a text adventure so everything is far less visual than in graphic video games.) Most media don't allow you to naturally choose what kind of experience you want. I still think the idea that "emphasis, direction, explicitness, and graphic impact determine sex vs. porn" can hold in a game where you are choosing your own path and getting into sexual situations (or not) depending on your whims.

As far as extreme violence being glorified while depictions of consensual sex are vilified - in my eyes, that's just idiots being idiots. :D
 

XIIIthHarbinger

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@Wavelength
Oh don't get me wrong, I am very much of the opinion that emphasis matters. Just as I would agree that characterizing shows like Game of Thrones & Spartacus as porn with a body count is unfair.

However, someone like the OP has very little recourse if they intend for the emphasis of the game to be X (game mechanics, story, exploration, etcetera) & y (sexual content) to be of secondary importance. But a Kotaku or a Jim Sterling, decides that the emphasis of the game is Y (sexual content) & X (game mechanics, story, exploration, etcetera) are secondary elements.

Consider, would The Witcher 3 have been called an RPG, or a porn game if it was made by an indie dev rather than a Triple A company?

If I make a Metroidvania platformer as an indie dev, & someone like Shoryuken.com labels it a 2D Figher; I can rather easily counter that because I can point to objective criteria that separate those two categories of games. However, if I make a Visual Novel with sexual content in it, yet I am not intending to make a porn/hentai game, so I don't make it central to the game; my intention doesn't matter if someone like Total Biscuit comes along & labels my game a porn/hentai game.

Because it's a dispute revolving around the ambiguity of a completely arbitrary distinction between two categories, the person with the biggest microphone, i.e. almost always the person who isn't the indie dev, wins.

As far as games where sex is built into some of the game's core routes, and not built into others, that's a really interesting idea and I think it's largely untreaded territory. (Interstate Zero is the one game in that vein that comes to mind for me, though that's a text adventure so everything is far less visual than in graphic video games.) Most media don't allow you to naturally choose what kind of experience you want. I still think the idea that "emphasis, direction, explicitness, and graphic impact determine sex vs. porn" can hold in a game where you are choosing your own path and getting into sexual situations (or not) depending on your whims.

Oh it's likely to remain so from what I've seen. The Adults Only marketed games are just like any other segment of the gaming market, namely there is a lot of schlock, cranked out just to make a buck. Because most of them intend for nudity & sexual content to sell the game, many of the games are little more than interactive skin flicks, or chose your own hentai adventure. However, there are some that are actual quality indie games, that simply happen to have a decent amount of adult content.

Though they are very much the minority, usually created by people who think AO games should have depth, as well as penetration.:troll:
 

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(that's almost like calling Team Fortress an RPG) - at most it has some pornographic content
GTA had a "hot coffee" fiasco that turned the game from Mature to Adult Only by having exactly one explicit scene that you can't get to without hacking. It's precisely as silly as calling Team Fortress an RPG. Although, on that note, if a game would normally be some very low rating (like E), but had one optional explicit scene, what would it's rating be? (Imagine the next Mario Party having one as a minigame, but it gets removed as unnecessary to the game but left on the software, like how most snes games have hidden content because it's hard to find it all to remove)

I think the focus on "camera" is a good one. With an explicit scene, is it for the player or a character? One thing that blurs the line; I've written a few stories that have explicit scenes in them. After first drafts, sometimes I notice the scenes help the story fine, but aren't necessarily interesting to read. I might rewrite it in a way to make it more "exciting" for the reader while being mindful to lose nothing of why the scene is there in the first place. I'd do the same thing in a game (especially Visual Novel). Would doing this push it into "porn" territory?
 

XIIIthHarbinger

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GTA had a "hot coffee" fiasco that turned the game from Mature to Adult Only by having exactly one explicit scene that you can't get to without hacking.

True, however, mods & patches are another thing that is blurring the lines. In the last year or so, I've noticed many games being released on Steam that have Mature Audience content level to get past Steam Censorship; but then the developer has an "Uncensored Patch" on their blogger page, or their ******* page, or their website. & I can't even begin to guess how many nudity/sex/prostitution/fetish/porn/hentai mods there are for games like Skyrim.


Although, on that note, if a game would normally be some very low rating (like E), but had one optional explicit scene, what would it's rating be?

I think games should largely be rated like films or television programs, in that the most extreme content determines your overall content of your game. So long as the guidelines are clear cut, so that everyone from indie devs to triple A companies can reliably predict what rating their game will be given, I think such a system would work fine.

Would doing this push it into "porn" territory?
No idea, & that's the problem for the OP or anyone else for that matter making similar games. "Porn" isn't a term used for the most part by entities like the ESRB. Instead they use terms like Nudity, Sexual Content, Mature Sexual Content, Strong Sexual Content, etcetera. Yet these are terms used to describe the content of numerous Mature Audiences games, for example all of the other Grand Theft Auto Games as well.

Furthermore, there appear to be less than thirty games total that have been rated AO by ESRB according to Wikipedia. & ESRB themselves use the highly ambiguous qualifiers of "Intense" (Mature Audiences) versus "Prolonged" (Adults Only) to describe the differences in content level.

So if you have even rating agencies using highly subjective determinations through arbitrary qualifiers, any indie dev is subject to the whims of anyone with a bigger microphone, operating on the standard of "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it".

Which is probably why so many people who make mature content, bypass agencies like the ESRB.
 
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