Where do I draw the line?

[BigEd781]

irrelevant. i was talking about the content of the game.

Not irrelevant. I just told you why it is not irrelevant. This is not a theoretical debate. This site is a forum for anyone who is 13 years of age or older. Therefore, the content hosted should be in line with that policy.

also 13+ = children? in one sense, sure. but in this context, thirteen-year-olds certainly have the ability to judge for themselves what games they can download—especially if those games have fair warnings about their content (warnings are fine! censorship is uncool!).

Yes, 13 = child, in every sense of the word. 13 year olds in general are certainly not capable of making the best decisions at all times. They will more often than not make decisions which do more harm than good. I'm not saying that every game posted here should be absent of any and all mature content, but there is certainly content that I would not want hosted here, period. I couldn't care less if you or anyone else uses the term "art" to describe it. *That*, my friend, is irrelevant.

 

[Levi]

i can't imagine anything in an rpg maker game could scar a thirteen year old with internet access.

Haha. True.

Thanks for the input BigEd.

 

[Euphony]

Might I also chime in, to no one in particular: Be sure age-sensitive content is appropriate for the game itself. If your game features adorable little chibis romping through a magical kingdom, please don't have the characters sexxing it up, doing drugs, swearing in every other sentence, and splattering each other's blood everywhere. That gets silly very quickly and people aren't going to take it seriously.

Especially in this community, in which most games have a chibi or cartoonish style, subtelty is key. Use questionable content in moderation and be clever with implication versus explanation.

 

[Archeia]

i can't imagine anything in an rpg maker game could scar a thirteen year old with internet access.

Maybe Dooms? <w<;

 

[RavenTDA]

Well if you have internet access then you could simply look up all the "bad" stuff and get your curiosity sated that way. It's doubtful that it would be an rpg maker game that would scar you for life compare to everything else you could watch/download. But since there's always a chance then I guess it's best to warn.

The reason I asked about the religion warning is I find it strange that I would have to warn about a game that has it's own made up religion and have to say "hey one of the characters questions religion". I think it's something a 13 year old should be able to handle. I could see people getting offended if I had a real world religion in the game but otherwise it seems silly to me but hey it doesn't hurt me to paste up an extra note. But if I didn't see this thread, I'd otherwise not even think to warn about something like that.

On another note, sometimes I think as we get older we've forgotten what it's like to be younger. I don't find teenagers children and honestly I don't think I personally matured too much more since that age. (I've gotten more grumpy, bitter, and less filled with dreams but that has nothing to do with maturity and being unable to handle adult themes in a story.) I know everyone varies from person to person but all in all I find it better to expose young people to mature ideals because it's THAT that makes them grow up and become respectable understanding adults. I find it more problematic to shelter people from facts, things, and ideals because when presented with those things later on in life, they won't be able to handle and function with such because they haven't had an idea how or practice. I just never find it good to not know about something. Knowledge is power, yo. You don't have to agree to the context but knowing about it, being aware, and being all in all more educated is always a good thing in my book. (Although this little bit might be better for a different thread....)

 

[BigEd781]

Well if you have internet access then you could simply look up all the "bad" stuff and get your curiosity sated that way.

That's a silly argument. Following that logic we may as well be open to pornographic content as well because, you know, you can find it elsewhere on the internet, right?

The fact is that we are a 13+ community. All of our content should be appropriate for all of our members, period.

The reason I asked about the religion warning is I find it strange that I would have to warn about a game that has it's own made up religion and have to say "hey one of the characters questions religion". I think it's something a 13 year old should be able to handle. I could see people getting offended if I had a real world religion in the game but otherwise it seems silly to me but hey it doesn't hurt me to paste up an extra note. But if I didn't see this thread, I'd otherwise not even think to warn about something like that.

I don't think questioning religion is out of bounds for 13 a year old (or anyone really).

On another note, sometimes I think as we get older we've forgotten what it's like to be younger. I don't find teenagers children and honestly I don't think I personally matured too much more since that age. (I've gotten more grumpy, bitter, and less filled with dreams but that has nothing to do with maturity and being unable to handle adult themes in a story.) I know everyone varies from person to person but all in all I find it better to expose young people to mature ideals because it's THAT that makes them grow up and become respectable understanding adults. I find it more problematic to shelter people from facts, things, and ideals because when presented with those things later on in life, they won't be able to handle and function with such because they haven't had an idea how or practice. I just never find it good to not know about something. Knowledge is power, yo. You don't have to agree to the context but knowing about it, being aware, and being all in all more educated is always a good thing in my book. (Although this little bit might be better for a different thread....)

No, I remember what it was like, that's why I feel the way that I do. The problem is that, even though a given teenager may seem to handle mature content just fine, they don't always know how to process it and use it wisely. In fact, they almost never do. Very smart teenagers do very stupid things. It's a strange and delicate age. They are exposed to mature concepts, but they don't necessarily know how best to deal with them.

 

[RyanA]

No, I remember what it was like, that's why I feel the way that I do. The problem is that, even though a given teenager may seem to handle mature content just fine, they don't always know how to process it and use it wisely. Very smart teenagers do very stupid things. It's a strange age. They are exposed to mature concepts, but they don't necessarily know how best to deal with them.

On this note...I know many of my classmates back when I was at school were calling each other pedophiles...I don't think they really knew what it meant and the gravity of such an accusation -_- Think they just saw the word and started calling each other it...Stupid kids, get off the lawn!! :angry:

 

[zacheatscrackers]

I'll cross the line to a certain point, but I'll still put on some sort of limit to myself; it's a given that I'll make stuff with some pretty gosh darn crude language, since... well, what young adult male doesn't (trick question, I know there are some who restrain their mouthes)? But unless I feel like doing it solely for humorous purposes and not to offend every audience I aim my creations at, I won't satirize/focus on excessively touchy subjects. The outcome of doing that is never fun.

Bottom line, I like to toy with my adult-toned area, but I know acceptable (foul-mouthed characters cursing like sailors and blathering about sex and ****) from horrible (basing an entire area off Muslims and make a crapload of jokes about Muhammad or recent celebrity's death) to at least some extent.

 

[Ravenith]

Use warnings. Don't do anything extreme that involves children. No raping. These are the general guidelines I usually set.

 

[Ocedic]

That's a silly argument. Following that logic we may as well be open to pornographic content as well because, you know, you can find it elsewhere on the internet, right?

The fact is that we are a 13+ community. All of our content should be appropriate for all of our members, period.

There's a difference in that pornographic content to minors is explicitly illegal, and illegal in some countries as well.

I don't think questioning religion is out of bounds for 13 a year old (or anyone really).

Not that I disagree with this particular statement, but you're arbitrarily deciding what is right and wrong by your own moral code.

And all of that has driven this thread way off topic. On the subject, there is no crossing the line. It's all about the story you are trying to tell. In terms of writing a good story, the lines you cross should fit the themes, tone and atmosphere of your story. 'Crossing the line' for the sake of it just doesn't make for good storytelling.

 

[Tuomo L]

i can't imagine anything in an rpg maker game could scar a thirteen year old with internet access.

One word.

Dooms.

After all 4th part has made reportedly two people vomit from the credit sequence alone. And in a recent Let's play, a guy said he saw nightmares for days after playing it. I can say those people were quite scarred.

 

[Des]

Dooms.

your games are made with that intent. we're not talking about ****ty shock-horror stuff here; we're talking about mature scenes and situations within real games.

 

[Tuomo L]

your games are made with that intent.

If that's what you want to believe.

I was wondering on what was considered mature, as some sites are more strict in this than others and considering we're from all around world, some things are less taboo and some are more. For example.

If my character has a scene where she has a bath with her mother in an anime fashion, this will not be thought as mature as it's purely innocent right? What if it's a bit mischevious, yet still non sexual, such as this?

http://avvesione.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/persona4-20-naoto-chie-yukiko-rise-naked-bath-hot_springs-steam.jpg

I was also wondering at what point violence is okay to show to a teen and when only to adult? (Now there's an odd sentence)

 

[RavenTDA]

It's my understanding when nipples and other details of genitalia show it's time to start the big-time adult warnings (and it pretty much becomes pornographic). Otherwise I'd say the hot spring scene is more of a "suggestive themes" type of thing. You wanna let it be known but it's not a HUGE deal if it's not or needs to be in your face about it.

Violence I think when you start with blood you're in the mature content zone with mild warnings but tiny sprites it's not so alarming and sometimes you need blood just to say "hey they're dead not sleeping guyz". Blood from a sword fight is mild. Blood from torture is different and needs a warn, I think. When blood starts to cover characters and is on character portraits it needs a warn. Because the blood is no longer a symbol of what happened it's gory. Any kind of horror game usually needs a warn even though I think it's silly someone would play a horror game and be like "oh man and here I thought rainbows would pop out of the zombies!" Sometimes I think it just needs a bit of common sense. Otherwise if you're ever not sure it doesn't hurt to say "hey this game has xyz in it".

EDIT:

You can also look at a game rating site (such as the ESR. They usually have listings of what's considered what in different categories. So that should help you decide about that too.

 

[Tuomo L]

It's my understanding when nipples and other details of genitalia show it's time to start the big-time adult warnings (and it pretty much becomes pornographic). Otherwise I'd say the hot spring scene is more of a "suggestive themes" type of thing. You wanna let it be known but it's not a HUGE deal if it's not or needs to be in your face about it.

I agreed with you on many parts you said but if the said picture is something like a mother washing her daughter during a cutscene, it is not suggestive and certainly not pornographic even if there'd not be "magic foam" to cover up her or the daughter.

 

[RyanA]

If my character has a scene where she has a bath with her mother in an anime fashion, this will not be thought as mature as it's purely innocent right? What if it's a bit mischevious, yet still non sexual, such as this?

http://avvesione.fil...rings-steam.jpg

I was also wondering at what point violence is okay to show to a teen and when only to adult? (Now there's an odd sentence)

I see it as this. Stuff like your picture you don't really need warnings for, things like the second linked picture you should have light warnings for, it's not nescesarly (cant spell 3: ) for full OMG NUDE warnings, but just to let people know there's a little bit of something going on, in my opinion of course :3

As for the violence. Any kind of violence needs a fantasy violence warning, even if people are hitting each other with wooly mittens, it's still violence. This also includes pillow fights ;3 (not really) Really, where violent things are going on, you need a warning, when blood and guts are involved, you should have an extra warning and a higher R thingymajig :3

 

[RavenTDA]

@Mister Big T

Well that's pretty much the American standards. They aren't so light with nudity like it is over here in Europe. I usually think it's best to go by those standards because they're more strict and they're a large audience for the English speaking. The most nudity you'll get is a naked baby bottom (because I guess it's supposed to be cute) or a cartoon bottom (for sake of comedy). Anything else is on special channels or censored, when put on the regular television channels. Over here in Germany however you watch tv late at night and you have pornographic commercials. I was pretty surprised the first time I saw it. ^^; Anyways the point is, if you don't have to show parts of the child naked, don't. You're going to risk yourself with having child pornography even though I agree the scene is innocent. But it's better to cover your butt, and you still get the same idea with the scene. I don't think it really dampens anything artistically to have a magical foamy bath vs a clear one. It's showing the same thing without bothering sensitive issues, it's not like baths can't be foamy either.

 

[Tuomo L]

That actually gives me a great idea how to deal with the whole mature idea. Make the game come with age options and the ability to lower the blood or turn it off, same with nudity and allowing "magic foam" to be displayed.

Would a game with features like these help make the game acceptable by the forum standards, seeing as the violence and the nudity can be turned off, thus making the game more suitable for people 13 and under?

 

[BigEd781]

Not that I disagree with this particular statement, but you're arbitrarily deciding what is right and wrong by your own moral code.

And all of that has driven this thread way off topic. On the subject, there is no crossing the line. It's all about the story you are trying to tell. In terms of writing a good story, the lines you cross should fit the themes, tone and atmosphere of your story. 'Crossing the line' for the sake of it just doesn't make for good storytelling.

It's not arbitrary; as you said, by my own (and the rest of the staff's) moral code. We're not making legislation here, this is a private forum and the people who run it decide what is and is not appropriate.

 

[crimcrim]

If you're putting in mature content and excessive violence into your game for the sake of putting mature content and excessive violence in your game (or to be edgy) then no. Don't put it in. You're making an RPG. Sure there are mature themes, but sometimes they aren't necessary. What, are you going to have 2 sprites hardcore dry humping? That's about the extent of sexual maturity you can get with RPG Maker.