who's played undertale

Discussion in 'Video Games' started by kitsune121x, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    It's a shallow "violence is bad!" moral that falls apart because it doesn't think the people it blatantly wants you to think are "the good guys" have to come to that conclusion as well.
     
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  2. Ultimacj

    Ultimacj Cookie Knight Veteran

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    Well LilyWhite isn't that kind of the point?  I mean if you played the No Mercy Route all the way through, that point is pretty much a given, especially how the game ends.  The game really doesn't teach you who the "good guys are".  It teaches you not to judge others.  That human and monsters can co-exist.  The moral compass of one of the endings, like the genocide means you don't give a flying fark.  You're a monster.  You're bad.  I'm human.  I judge.  Now you die.

    If you played genocide route, notice how the puzzles are all 'solved'? Monsters don't have time to set them up for you and you don't have time to solve puzzles. You are DETERMINED to kill and that's that.

    This game has a lot of deep meaning which makes it unique.
    ...and the Protangist shows this clearly during that route.  Even I was almost appalled by the MC's actions.  I was like, wow that's cold hearted there!
     
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  3. Ratty524

    Ratty524 Veteran Veteran

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    I played a pacifist route primarily, and it's actually just as rewarding as being aggressive on the account that the key to success is all about finding what makes each character tick and learning to live with them. That's what I got out of the game. I didn't enter thinking that anyone was "bad" or "good" or any other 1-dimensional trait, at least with the characters that matter.
     
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  4. Kaelan

    Kaelan Veteran Veteran

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    It's really, really not. I get the feeling you haven't played very far into the game. You're perfectly welcome to kill everything in sight if you want to. You play an entirely different storyline if you do that, and there's several parts of the game you will never see if you never kill anything. It's not necessarily "right" to play pacifist or "wrong" to play genocide, you just get to see different sides of the story, the characters and the world (you also don't get to see the best boss fights and hear the best music in the game if you don't play the genocide route). If anything, I'd say the worst ending is one of the neutral path endings.
     
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  5. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    The blatantly-best ending is explicitly about seeing the monsters as "good guys".

    The fact that it thinks you shouldn't judge the monsters for trying to murder a child solely because he's human when it berates you for killing one of said murderous monsters in self-defense is exactly what's absolutely sick and twisted about the game.
     
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  6. Confederacy

    Confederacy Veteran Veteran

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    I've been tempted to try it out because it's cheap, but I just don't have any interest in it.
     
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  7. Ratty524

    Ratty524 Veteran Veteran

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    The game has various blatant clues and even dialogue that explains the reason monsters are hostile towards humans, though. There's nothing off about it.

    From the backstory provided, humans historically never saw eye-to-eye with monsters, and feared them for their ability to take their souls, regardless of whether the monsters in question had any intent on doing so or not, so they kicked their asses and sealed them underground. To make matters worse, you have the whole story of Asriel being killed on sight due to humans misunderstanding his motives (he was delivering a dead child home out of respect).
    What does this all mean? The monsters definitely have a reason to be hostile towards humans. Not because they are assholes, mind you, but because they were all convinced that they need a human soul to free themselves from their prison and that the entire lives of their kind is at stake. If none of them thought not-killing you was was an option, they wouldn't, as especially proven by oblivious characters like Papyrus, whose only true goal is to be recognized and accepted by his peers. Catching a human is just part of the job.

    Even better with Asgore, the guy is a softy, and he did what he did to give a people who had no hope for themselves some hope, and if you look between the lines, you can actually tell he is DEFINITELY ashamed of his actions and doesn't truly want to kill the player, so that definitely refutes the lack of judgement on the monster's end.

    This is where you as a player can step in. When playing pacifist, you are actually proving that a peaceful coexistence is possible, by learning to accept people with different perspectives/features from your own and taking the time to learn about them. Yeah, it's certainly funny that all of your "friends" attempted to kill you at one point, but from this, why would you expect anything different after achieving that goal?

    Alternatively, you can kill/go Genocide and not only not solve the issue, but fall into the trap of another individual with malicious intent (hint, the character your naming at the beginning is not the character you are actually playing as).

    As for the "self-defense" argument, while it's certainly an unfortunate necessity in real life, killing is always a selfish act. Killing because you hate someone fails to consider the repercussions that occur with that deceased individual's life; killing out of self-defense is an act of self-preservation, and may actually have the same consequences as killing someone you hate; hell, even killing an animal for food is done as a means to preserve oneself or support others in your life at someone/something else's expense. To not feel guilt from killing anything is a result of not thinking deeply about the broader repercussions that may affect you and/or other people (especially the latter) for taking another life.

    That's part of what the game's critiquing, hence you often don't need to know how to get a monster to stop fighting you by attacking them back and killing them. It actually feels like the easy way out in that regard, and there is even a cutscene in-game that talks about this.
    While it's none of my business to openly criticize what you like or dislike, I strongly feel that you are misinterpreting the game's theme and I suggest you look at it from another angle, but to each's own.
     
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  8. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    The highlights of that spoilered section:

    • Killing someone who is trying to kill you without provocation is selfish.
    • The monsters have a perfectly good reason for murdering a child who has done nothing to them solely for their own benefit.
    (Also, the fact that the game also sees nothing wrong with how the monsters have a tendency to "inadvertently" kill people is all kinds of messed-up.)
     
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  9. Ronove

    Ronove ♫꒰・‿・๑꒱ Veteran

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    I really think the reason the monsters are all willing to kill you it's kinda like a flip of what's in regular RPGs. You're full within your rights in a game let's say Final Fantasy to go and kill monsters because they are trying to kill you. You get a pat on the back for getting rid of that morbol because it's dangerous. That's how the monster society sees YOU in Undertale until you show them differently. What if that I dunno flan you killed was a child flan and all it wanted to do was say hi? You killed it cause you thought it was dangerous (and maybe its attack was it's only way to say hello!) I think THAT'S what the game wants you to take away from it. At least how I understood it.
     
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  10. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    And the problem there is that there's no difference between a Malboro and Undyne.
    As clever as Undertale thinks it is, it's a commentary on other RPGs in the same vein as people who claim Harry Potter promotes Satanism.
     
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  11. Dalph

    Dalph Nega Ralph™ Veteran

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    I'm sorry but I have to, it's too amazing to not post it, ahahahahah:
     
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Reavenator

    Reavenator Member Veteran

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    The game seem interesting, but I just really really don't like the gameplay, and I spoiled a bunch of major stuff for myself (not the game's fault, of course, it's just a bad habit of mine).

    I am however, afraid of this game's fandom becoming the next Fnaf fandom. I've seen some pretty strange fanart already.
     
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  13. nio kasgami

    nio kasgami VampCat Veteran

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    honestly lily white did played the whole game and tried to get immersed in the game before saying such stupidity? I mean no the game would not equal a professionnal game where pro handle deep character and ect

    but this game is not swallow like you so much like to say

    Honestly this twitch me because you don't even try to see why us like this game

    you just states your opinion without listening I honestly think you should avoid to explain your comment about this game because you sound SO toxic about the game and totally ruin the conversation
     
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  14. Ultimacj

    Ultimacj Cookie Knight Veteran

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    @  Lilywhite.  You can't really compare Malbro and Undyne.  Undyne was an a sentient being, unless you can show me where:

    * Tell me how to fight
    * Has feelings for another monster and other monsters (Dr. Aynee)
    * Shows me how to PASSIONATELY cook pasta (You have to SMASH those tomatoes!!)
    * Can also talk
    I don't think FF's Malbro or many of it's monsters can do that.  It's EXP and that's all it is nothing more or less, in that game series.

    As for the human (the PC), the pacfist route shows or even the neutral shows "Can't we all just get along?"  The child doesn't think violence is the answer.

    Of course if you decide to go the genocide route, it's the latter and you see everything else expressed differently I.E. the child proves that humans are "bad" in this case and maybe monsters too.

    It all boils down to one word:

    Choice
     
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  15. Confederacy

    Confederacy Veteran Veteran

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    I think Lily does, she just doesn't agree with the games message. I have a vague understanding about what the game is about so I'm not in any position to criticize it.
     
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  16. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    That is problem I have with Undertale (and any theme around the concept of judging being bad).

    Everyone does have a reason for what they are doing and everyone believe they are doing the right choice.  But does that mean we should not defend ourselves against them?  

    If someone thinks that you killed someone important to you (but you didn't) and will fight to there last breath to kill you, then does that mean you are a bad person if you fight back against them (possibly taking them out in all the chaos of a fight)?

    Also, people judge for three reasons:

    1. It is impossible to learn everything there is about everyone you meet in life and missing even one detail about a person can make your thoughts about them wrong (and hence you judging them wrongly)
    2. To try and learn a lot about someone takes a VERY long time and is a waste of time to do for most people.  With people changing over time it also becomes a job that you will have to upkeep constantly
    3. To prevent a negative situation from occuring to you.

    Can judging lead to issues, yes (and it happens alot).  But it is necessary.  The best way to handle the situation is just to be smart about it,  Listen to what your body is telling you to think of the other person, but act cautiously upon it (your body can notice things about body language that your mind sometimes overlooks afterall).

    A major bad event has happened in Germany recently due to the fears of judging people and I am sick of it always being told to always judge or not judge at all by society.  

    This world does not operate on extremes often, but we sure act like it only does.

    edit: also, self-defense is countering selfishness with selfishness.  And why is being selfish a bad thing outright?
     
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  17. Susan

    Susan Veteran Veteran

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    @lilywhite: I'm trying to understand what you're trying to say in this thread, but I suspect my comprehension level is lacking since I can't understand many of the points you're trying to make here. :(

    Personal opinion incoming:

    The game gives you free will and teaches about tolerance and consequences.

    No one is 100% right in the game, just like in real life.

    You're given free reign to do as you wish with the power you have, and the game shows you the different points of views as well as different possible results of the actions you chose to take.

    For a real world reference that might help you understand the "humans" and "monsters" standpoint, just change those two terms to real world races/nationalities, and take a moment to think. Not going to say more on this because it's not my purpose to start a racial discussion.

    Another real world example is "humans" and "animals". Humans claim certain animals are dangerous when all they're doing is protecting their home. Humans cut down forests and drive animals from their familiar hunting grounds, carnivorous animals run out of food and start attacking humans, the next closest food source. The animals are labelled bad and dangerous and has to be hunted down and killed, but in the bigger picture, who started everything and took their primary food spurce from them? The protagonist is given a chance to put a stop to an endless, mindless, vicious cycle.

    The bottom line is: everyone/thing has a life and everyone/thing deserves to live. Humans are not the be-all-and-end-all organisms of any world. They make lots of mistakes as well, and that includes killing other living organisms.

    Monsters are just another living organism like humans, and maybe they're just not as bad as some people claim they are.
    Just my two cents. ;)
     
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  18. Dalph

    Dalph Nega Ralph™ Veteran

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    You technically defend yourself in the game and fight against the monsters even if you choose not to, you just don't do it using violence, that is the major difference. It's basically defeating them with kindness and\or using your brain to spot their real weaknesses.

    Not everything can be resolved with a punch, that's the message of Undertale.

    About judging I won't comment because it'll be going off-topic and I don't want to derail the thread too much but you raised good points there.

    ~

    Also guys, it's a game, and a game about a human who has fallen down a hole into a world full of monsters, it doesn't have to reflect reality at 100%.
     
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    #38
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  19. Ultimacj

    Ultimacj Cookie Knight Veteran

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    @ Susan:  Pretty much nailed it there.

    Now let's all have a good time with Sans!

    (Or a Bad time...oh god that fight was a ton of work to beat...a skeleTON)

    I got into the game after reading about before all the moral stuff.  It reminds me of Earthbound/Mother 3.

    To be this is the Mother IV that we should have received. 

    "This here is a signpost.  It loves to be read.  This signpost thanks you for reading it."
     
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  20. Kaelan

    Kaelan Veteran Veteran

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    H-hey...are you saying this isn't like human history?!

    [​IMG]
     
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