Why does anyone use fanservice?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Bellflowers, Jul 9, 2018.

  1. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    I fail to see how it's relevant if it's a real woman with real agency or it's a fictionally non-existent woman that isn't real. Is it degrading to a non-existing woman, but not degrading to one that makes that choice herself? What if I invent a backstory or "in universe" reasons for my fictional characters to be dressing skimpy and as "Fan Service"? What is the difference?

    Or, is it only "a difference" because said fictional characters get to be idealized versions of males or females and get to be lusted after for brief moments, and real life "Fan Service" is those people choosing to be objects of lust for money or to boost their own egos?

    I'm afraid I don't see your point at all.

    You've yet to even justify your own dislike of Fan Service. You seem simply keen on trying to tell people it shouldn't exist at all.

    As for Sailor Moon... Yep, the Transformations in the Manga are just as much Fan Service. They don't start out all sparkly and naked, but it's a different kind of Fan Service to accentuate their impressively long and feminine legs and skinny waists. Even funnier is that it's written by a woman. Oh, and in the Manga, their skirts seem to be "flying up" a lot more in the transformation sequences than what we get in the anime. They also seem to be a few inches shorter.

    The thing about Heavy Metal... It's a movie. You should watch it sometime. The whole thing is music, psychedelic visual trips, and lots of Fan Service everywhere. Generally regarded as a cultural phenomenon and sometimes as literal Art.

    But, let's say we get rid of all Fan Service everywhere. You know, to cater to your sensibilities and tastes.

    Twilight is gone as a series. Magic Mike is gone. Anything you can see a man's bare chest is gone. All clothing that could be "skin tight" and shows off any amount of "sexual appeal". Swimsuits? Gone. Bikinis? Gone. Women who have naturally large chest sizes and can't find clothes to fit them? Now it's mandatory for them to get reductions so that they aren't showing it off. The outfit Batman wears? Gone. In all iterations of him. Even the ones that were "safe" from the original series. Harlequin Romance Novels? Gone. Risqué commercials? Gone. Superheroes? All gone. Sports video games? Gone. It's allllllllll Fan Service. While we're at it, we should also eliminate other things that people might find "sexy". Like say... feet... armpits... noses... Fat people... Just hit all the fetishes.

    My point is that Fan Service, in general, is okay. However, to remain "Fan Service" is needs to be either used in moderation... or whatever medium it is part of, that needs to be the whole point of that medium. If an entire game's point is the Fan Service, I'm fine with that. If Fan Service comes with every 4 hours of gameplay or something... I'm fine with that. If it's used as a plot point... I'm fine with that too.

    In general, the major backlash against Fan Service seems to be the basic attitude of, "Yes, I get it, they're hot. Can I go back to enjoying the rest of this now? Can we stop having everything interrupted just to remind me that said character is attractive?". Which, basically, means that the Fan Service is too much "in your face" and "misused".

    I can understand not wanting to partake in the overt Fan Service type games. It's not to everyone's tastes. Some people prefer subtlety... But, I don't understand not liking any Fan Service at all. I can't understand being unable to appreciate a fine specimen of the male or female body in any medium. It makes no sense to me.
     
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  2. Astfgl66

    Astfgl66 Veteran Veteran

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    That's mostly what my posts second part was about. There seems to be people really keen on getting rid of fanservice and I don't get it.
    I don't like football. I'm not petitioning to get rid of it or debating 'is football justified?'. I just let people who enjoy it enjoy it and find some other content myself. It's not like there's a shortage of content to be enjoyed. And people don't have to provide justifications as to why they like it either.
    And if you wonder about why there's so much football content around, the answer for me would be the same as for fanservice: money.

    As far as how can fanservice not be shoved in you face, it's all a matter of taste. I might find something subtle while someone else might find it too heavy. And like I said in my previous post that's fine, we all have different tastes.

    I'd like to see you answer your own questions if you don't mind, because right now other than the fact that fanservice is bad because you never ever like it, I fail to see your point. Why is fanservice used in your opinion? When is it acceptable? When isn't it? What even constitutes fanservice?
     
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  3. Ksi

    Ksi ~RTP Princess~ Moderator

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    I don't see an issue with sexy - men and women wear sexy clothes all the time in real life. If you're making realistic characters, why can't your cute blonde wear a bikini at the beach, or your sexy brunette wear that cut-away dress? And in a more fantasy-based creation, why can't you have fantastic outfits, especially if magic or, hell, technology allows for things like temperature, weather and the like to become non-determiners in what you wear?

    If my sorceress of evil wants to deck herself out in a magical skull dress with cleavage showing, I can't see why she shouldn't. I mean, granted, there are games out there where every sexy person is stuck in a revealing outfit and played up as being just that, but if you have a mix of different characters with different levels of skin being shown, with different characteristics then I don't see the issue.

    If you're shy, awkward, conservative, innocent healer wears a miniskirt and has her boobs hanging out (and is the only one in her sect who has such an outfit) I'm going to raise my eyebrows considerably and judge your game as very likely just trashy, but if you have an outgoing, flirtatious woman from a tropical tribal society who doesn't wear a top and has a short skirt, and the rest of her tribe are dressed the same, I can deal with that. There's plenty of tribes irl that didn't wear tops and nudist colonies and topless beaches are a thing irl even now.

    All that said, I'm not going to go out of my way to condemn people for making or enjoying fanservice in their games. I won't necessarily choose to play those games myself, and I won't create them, either, but I see no issue with their existence. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who don't like games with women-only parties or where the object of the game is to flirt and gift your way into marriage with your chosen bachelor.

    But, hell, as long as everyone is getting the same treatment I have absolutely no issue with some sexy shirtlessness. ;p


    Also, I'm sorry, but Tifa is dressed completely appropriately for someone bouncing around and kicking/punching sheep all the time. It fits her character to wear clothes she can move in and still look good in. Like, if I had the ability to do that kind of sheep, as a woman, I totally would. Hell, I totally have before too. If you want to dress up like a mummy, go ahead, but don't tell other people what they should and shouldn't wear - don't police perfectly decent clothing choices, in or out of fiction.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  4. Andar

    Andar Veteran Veteran

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    OK, so let's add my own opinion on this to the discussion.
    What I've said on this topic for about 30 years or so was always "I hate useless fanservice (emphasis on useless), but I'm not afraid of nudity where it is required".
    Almost every fantasy movie from the 70/80-ties had a single scene where the actors stopped traveling for a bathing scene, just to show the main actress topless - and those scenes never had a need in the story, which is why I called them useless and hate them. That goes on to a lot of other times where such a scene was required by the producers to get a rating despite the wishes of the director or storywriter - the pilot of Stargate SG-1 comes to mind, although that nude scene was integrated a bit better into the story.
    However, contrary to
    there are indeed stories where nudity is required.
    I usually gave examples from the horror genry:
    In the classical vampire films, no vampire ever bedded or stripped their victims before biting, so there a fanservice would have been questional (although there is now a subgenre where it is common) - but on the other hand I never heard of a cannibal who eats clothing.
    So if you have a cannibal-horror, at some time the victims have to be stripped - and if the cannibal in question is an intelligent one, he does this as early as possible to remove hidden tools and reduce the chance of escape.

    Or a more recent example (read the first book of the "Black Tide Rising" series) is the variant of the "Zombie Apocalypse" that uses biological, virus based zombies.
    As explaind in "under a graveyard sky" any biological zombie has to be nude or he isn't a real danger. The problem is that if waste processing is blocked by clothes, any living being will be dead within a few weeks. So if you have a virus-based zombie that did not shed their clothes while still being intelligent, all you have to do is to hole up somewhere for a month and 99% of all zombies will be true-dead.
    The common stereotype of hordes of clothed zombies is only possible if those zombies are already truly dead and animated magically.

    The world and setting I'm developing for my own games is what I call "Fantasy Noir" in reference to the "Film Noir" with its anti-heroes and femme fatales. The difference to regular Dark Fantasy is that those are mostly apocalyptic fantasy where civilisation has failed - in my world civilisation is still great and going, but society has failed. Similiar to what a Bladerunner-type future is to a Star Trek-type future setting.

    So yes, there will some fanservice in my stories and games - but there will be reasons for those when they're used.
    Because there is an ancient name for people who travel through the deep forests in metal bikinies.
    No, not that one - they're called "mosquito fodder"...
    But as said above, sometimes people dress in a sexy or revealing way for reasons - including trying to distract others ("If they look at your boobs they won't remember your face" said one thief to another) or because their owner (either true slavery or simply the boss who pays their salary) requires it.


    And then there is the cultural difference
    In the original version of the transformation scenes, there aren't even panties - it's a full glowing silhuette without any details, but without fake clothing either. Those panties were added in a western translation.
    And the reason for that is because in japan, "nudity" is also the symbol for "innocence" - which is why a lot of such scenes even in non-fanservice-anime show the main heroine nude while preparing for the final fight.

    Not every culture assumes that nudity has something to do with sexuality like some americans do - here in Germany for example you can see people sunbathing nude in public parks and no one cares about it.

    And on the other hand, what about some muslimic countries where it is considered extremely risky and a sexual assault on men if a woman shows her face?

    A lot of things that were named as "fanservice" by parts of the western public aren't fanservice at all but are there for other references. That is also something to keep in mind when watching foreign movies.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  5. ShadowHawkDragon

    ShadowHawkDragon Veteran Veteran

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    But it is. Throughout the entire design process I actively debated with myself over giving her leggings, but in the end I lost to my 'leg-fetish'. I personally have a thing for bare legs and am generally less interested in any character who covers their legs. That is the sole reason I even added a skirt instead of pants in the first place; therefore it IS 'fanservice' aimed at myself and any like-minded people with a thing for legs and I whole heatedly could never deny it. She even has a kicking animation, please sue me! Ahem, got a bit carried away with my guilt there.

    Anything can count as 'fanservice' as long as their is a sub-group drawn to it. I'll agree massive boobs hanging out and tiny-tiny skirts are mostly tasteless, but removing ALL 'fanservice 'in my eyes means covering everyone head to toe in the thickest and heaviest full-bodied most boring tasteless outfits possible. Because in my eyes any form of exposed skin from arms down to legs and back up again is by all means 'fanservice' in some shade of grey.

    This is why I tried to bring a new way of thinking to the table with what I call 'eye-candy' (still in need of a better term). Eye-candy is all about showing of subtle bits of skin and tailoring designs so they are 'attractive' to one or more sub-groups, including the odd fetish. The point is to be subtle. i.e the battler I displayed before with her bare legs is more 'eye-candy' than 'fanservice' but it is still in my eyes a lesser form of what is commonly referred to as 'fanservice'

    By the way, the term 'fanservice' actually means anything that appeases to 'fans'. A Chinese inspired outfit is 'service' to fans of Chinese clothing, samurais and ninjas are 'service' to fans of these Japanese warriors.

    So we may need a new term for 'over-the-top sexiness' so people can actually define which shade of grey we are talking about here?
     
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  6. trouble time

    trouble time Bearer of the Word Veteran

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    I was actually talking about the music genre, maybe i should have clarified. Though the movie and the magazine draw from the musical style (i capitalized it because ,to me at least, its the greatest musical genre ever and needs to be the most proper noun, hence every letter capitalized).

    Now i also want to talk about a few extra reasons for using fanservice.

    1.Every character, generally, should be different from one another. Their attitude toward their sexuality and dress choice can go a long way toward that. For example in my own game both the main characters Iii and Dia both have pretty nice bodies, but Iii wears a baggy tabard and boots when not in her armor because shes a knight who was raised by her orders Grandmaster of Chaplains. Shes also supposed to be a more innocent and idealistic character because shes only interacted with other knights who are all morally upstanding, anyone else shes met have shes either only seen in combat, or are being trampled underfoot and beaten to death by her hammer. Dia on the other hand is a succubus, in this case thats a military rank and social class not a species as her race ranks up they take on new forms like the dnd devils/baatezuu. As a succubus she wants to make her enemies fall humiliatingly, to see them abandon their virtue and live and die by her words. Not to mention she's affected by her own hypnotic aura, shes so proud of how she looks she made her bodyguards carry mirror sheilds so she could herself. Two characters with those too mindsets wouldnt dress the same.

    2. Themematic resonance. Sexuality is about as universal as language, so its a useful tool for exploring all sorts of themes used either as a motif or as the theme itself. I haven't watched it, but im told Darling in the Franxx is super blunt about this. Or, to bring it back to heavy metal, She is My Sin by Nightwish is also super blunt.

    I feel like i could write more on this and in more detail, but im on my phone and this is already super annoying to type.
     
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  7. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    The whole theme is indeed about sexuality and how those characters learn about it. Some of its aspect are sh**, but it was a wild ride that I have no regret watching it. The series did a pretty good job injecting the theme without having the proportion of fanservice overwhelmed it. Besides it is required to present the story. Granted, I still think a nude scene in early episode was unnecessary. But the rest were good.
     
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  8. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    No, that's not actually true. If you have a good example of where a member has seemingly contradicted themselves in this manner you could link to the two posts that contradict each other and say "I don't understand how you can think/believe/say both these things. Would you mind explaining?" However, you may not insult or harass that member for seemingly contradicting statements. "You are a complete moron for making these statements" would not be acceptable. If you are unsure if you are capable of this, however, then yes, it's best not to directly mention anyone.

    A random thought, in my opinion, related to the original topic:
    I love peanut butter and chocolate together. I think it is the greatest thing ever. I have a good friend who hates peanut butter and thinks peanut butter and chocolate should be banned forever. He has a right to that opinion and has the right to choose not to consume peanut butter in any manner, much less with chocolate. I have a right to consume it because it is something I enjoy.
     
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  9. Lunarea

    Lunarea Artist Global Mod

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    Not all fan service is sexual/provocative in nature. I've watched a few shows now where the characters discuss being shipped (for example: what would their couple "name" be) or where the characters have a crazy dream where they get together with their love interest precisely because that's what the fans want. Seeing Castle in his costume from Firefly for a Halloween episode was fan service, too, as is the scene in Supernatural where Dean reacts to learning that fans of the book written about him and Sam were "shipping" them together. These are very minor scenes that had no big bearing on the rest of the plot, but it made a lot of fans happy.

    I don't think it's automatically bad if an author/artist wants to add a detail or two to make their fans happy - especially when it's done in a way that doesn't distract or take the message away from the rest of the show. It's one of the few ways the media can reach the fans a little more directly and give them something fun to talk about.
     
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  10. Bellflowers

    Bellflowers Veteran Veteran

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    @Tai_MT the difference between a real woman choosing to dress in a sexual way is that its HER descision. She has agency and can choose to dress that way. A fictional character doesn't work that way, she's PUT into that clothing by the developer and they often have overexaggerated bodies. This leads to real life mistreatment of women because it normalizes harmful sterotypes. As for the movie heavy metal, its an adapation oh stories from Heavy Metal magazine IIRC, I have no idea how anyone could call anything but the musical score true art, its like saying an adaptation of old Playboy magazines is art. Though I can see Trouble Time was refering to the musical genre, which has its ups and downs, there's terribly problematic bands like Manowar or Powerwolf, and some that I think are wonderful like Unleash the Archers. Also, I don't think losing Twilight or Magic Mike is a great loss, in fact you can take the 50 Shades series too, and I'm of course not advocating women in real life get breast reductions or anything like that. Also, Superheroes don't have to be like Power Girl when we get characters like Zeypher/Faith from Valiant Comics. In fact the new Power Girl (I forget her real name but she's not Kryptonian) actually wears real clothes instead of a unitard and huge implants (I mean she's supposed to be Super Girl from another universe, I udnerstand her haircut but why is her body so different?) Also I've been over the whole "story reasons" excuse, the writer makes the story, its as made up as the characters, there's no justification for it because its just as made up as the charcters.(edited)



    @Astfgl66 Here's the thing though, while there are some terrible elements of football culture (both American football and soccer), the games themselves are fine. its not like it shows people the same harmful sterotypes. Now to answer my own questions . 1.I define fan service as the use of sexual imagry, which is almost always just pandering to the toxic and misogynistic elements of the video game community. 2.There's no level that its really acceptable. I guess if you stretch fanservice to include any fetishes, everything can be a fetish for some weirdo so I'd say if its not played as a fetish it can be okay. There a specific image I used in the last thread about the changes to that sprite, but I was reprimanded for it and its an example of fanservice taken WAY to far. I think a good example of a female character that doesn't go to far is something like say Saber in her default armor from Fate/Zero (though that whole series is a mess.) MAgic had some very questionable art in its earleir years but thankfully they've decided to fix it up, Danitha Chapesen from Dominaria looks great (and who doesn't love a Human decks). Theres actually a whole tumblr blog called Bikini Armor Battle damage that redesigns bad costumes and is generally pretty good. 3.Self explanatory, I'm not okay with Tifa's outfit, her huge breasts would be a hindrance in combat, and being so exposed for a journey across the world is stupid. Though her gloves and shoes and hair are great IMO. 4. They could just make porn or an eroge, at least that way it'd likely be hidden from the public view.
     
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  11. Touchfuzzy

    Touchfuzzy Rantagonist Staff Member Lead Eagle

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    @Bellflowers I have several personal friends who do burlesque for fun and enjoy it quite a lot. Are you saying that a character like that, a character who purposefully dresses provocatively for their own, or even others', enjoyment should NEVER exist in a video game?

    Basically, are you saying that people like that should have zero representation in games? They should never be able to play games that have people like them in them?

    The thing is to write characters who are fully developed people. To make characters that aren't treated as one note, not to erase certain types of people from media because it makes you uncomfortable.
     
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  12. Adonael

    Adonael Veteran Veteran

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    Please provide proof where a cartoon character gave an idea for a man to disrespect women.

    Concrete proof. Not opinion. Not one sided and scewed results. For real research.

    Because I can guarantee no decent man is going to treat a woman bad over the look of a character.

    And if he did there were deeper issues at play. Your argument here has no legs to stand on and your view on men and media is starting to sound a bit sexist to be honest.
     
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  13. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    Now the most obvious problem with that quote is that if this definition were to be accepted in the absolutist way it is presented, then a vast swathe of Western art would have to go - from Ancient Greece and Rome and most definitely from the Renaissance. See this article as a way into the subject. Would you really want to see all these paintings and scultures removed from the public domain?

    On a different note, I think it is unfortunate for you to describe people with a fetish as "weirdos". It reinforces the impression that your posts here and elsewhere give, that only a very narrowly defined range of sexual behaviour is acceptable to you at all.
     
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  14. Bellflowers

    Bellflowers Veteran Veteran

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    Oops, hit the post button too soon
    @Ksi Realism is a tricky issue, but ultimately it still causes problems, and isn't even important when you have things like dragons, nova bombs and plasma guns. As for fantastic outfits, why not just do something more creative and interesting than a sexy charater, its so overdone. I think mixing characters just makes it worse. Like an example I used before where one character was dressed a bit like a soldier, just with her jacket open and a reasonable bust size, the other two on that sheet were a girl in a dress with a tiny skirt, completely exposed cleaveage, a tiny waist and hips so wide she probably has trouble getting through some doors. The other was girl in what was basically half jacket and booty shorts while looking to be a teenager at most. Should I over look that cause one had wings and the other had blue skin (the soldier was obviously an elf too). Some of the other designs involved some kick ass fantasy armor, but that just shows that there could have been 5 competent designs instead of 3 good ones and two TERRIBLE ones. As for your example, your tropical society doesn't actually have to be there, they could have been a desert society with some cool Arbian inspired desert wear, not to mention most "tribal" societies lead to uncomfortable sterotypes. Just choosing not to play fanservice games doesn't undo the harm they do, neither would putting in shirtless men or even men in thong loincloths, as men being sexualized doesn't have the same effect in the real world, and its usually done for the male audience, not to entice the female audience. Conan wears a loin cloth and that's some of the most problematic fantasy ever written. I've been over why tifa isn't appropriately dressed already, The only way to make it worse would be showing some extra cleavage (or from a practical design perspective, making her gloves smaller de-emphasizes the power of her punches.
    @Andar There's literally no reason any of those things mentioned need fanservice, and nudity can be done in ways its disturbing rather than titilating, beyond some weirdo fetishists, like the cannibal you mentioned. Heck the people could be gasp ugly, stipped nude and decomposing. Also if someone is distracted by boobs then they aren't fit to be a warrior, and a slave owner forcing a slave to dress in a certain way should be played as disturbing rather than titillating. As for cultural differences, this is like people excusing the Witcher 3's lack of POC, the world is extremely well connected now, if a game is a global product it should meet global standards. Yet when people change games to fix things most people get up in arms about censorship, like what happened with Tokyo Mirage Sessions FE (which probably needed a shorter title as well) or Fire Emblem.
    @ShadowHawkDragon Even though anything could be someones fetish, it doesn't mean something is played as a fetish visually or narritively. In your example since you did it for your reasons I guess it is fanservice, but if most people don't see it that way is it really fanservice?
    @mlogan Peanuts butter and chocolate only cause harm to people with allergies, not unrealistic expectations and sexualization of women. My intial post refered mostly to people who say they're against fanservice, then try to justify design descisions like Tifa's skimpy nonsense of a costume.
    @Lunarea while the term used to have a wider meaning, most people mean it as sexual fanservice, and personally other forms of fanservice like cameos or refrencing popular storylines are fine.
    @trouble time You didn't have to write the story the way you did though, both could have been knights, just one for a different country with a more violent culture. and even if sexuality is somewhat universal, there are still other ways to express sexuality without fanservice. I understand typing on the phone though, it really sucks.
    @Touchfuzzy Don't they already have enough representation anyway? Also its not like you need sometihng of that minor a level to be represented. Underwater basket weaving is another hobby that isn't represented very often and it doesn't involve perpetuating a degrading state of affairs
     
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  15. trouble time

    trouble time Bearer of the Word Veteran

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    Funny thing, didn't people already try to do just that, like in the middle ages.
     
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  16. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    What "global standards"? Whose "global standards"? You dismiss the standards of cultures other than your own as being of no consequence. Yet what several posts on this thread have done is point out that attitudes to some aspects of sexuality differ e.g. the German attitude to nudity appears to be very different from e.g. the attitude of many in Mid-West US. As I am from neither culture, my own attitudes are likely to differ from both. Does that make me morally inferior to one or the other? I don't think so.

    @trouble time I know. Sad isn't it. It reminds me of Facebook taking down a woman's pictures of herself breast-feeding her child because it offended some people. They chose to see it as a sexual image, and lost sight of what it actually was. (And, by the way, I am not referring to the Chrissy Teigen picture, this was just an ordinary profile pic.) But I digress. Or maybe not?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  17. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    Why these seems contradicting? Why a fictional character can't represent a real woman? If the fictional character is based on true story, we also can't represent her in real life? Treating all fictional women in the same way is as bad as hiding truth behind a news.
     
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  18. XIIIthHarbinger

    XIIIthHarbinger Part Time Super Villain Veteran

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    Frankly I find nearly any objection to fan service to be either wholly subjective, & thus inherently irrelevant unless a person is wanting to discuss what does or does not appeal to them in media with other people actually seeking a similar conversation; or so fundamentally absurd as to be comical.

    "That armor isn't realistic!" Neither is running around in metal suits waving about slabs of metal, when every Tom, Dick, & Harry hurls lightning bolts from their fingertips. Or for that matter wearing metal at all, while combating those who routinely use what amounts to liquid nitrogen in projectile form. If you've never lived in more northern climates you might not be aware of this, but unprotected skin on metal below a certain temperature range has some rather hilarious consequences for people you don't like. If it happens to be your skin though, then you're going to have a rather unpleasant day. If you're looking for realism in worlds inhabited by dragons & ogres you have greater issues than how sexually provocative you find a collection of pixels.

    "It's unnecessary!" It's a game not a socket wrench, all of its content is by definition "unnecessary". Because its function is to provide amusement, an entirely subjective determination based upon a wildly disparate set of criteria from individual to individual; which it will fail at with some percentage of the potential audience regardless of what its content is. Not to fulfill a defined purpose, met by fulfilling objective criteria like proper chemical composition or required tensile strength.

    "It's offensive!"
    That's a subjective determination, & your own problem. Everyone is offended by something, go play something that doesn't bother you. Other people aren't under a moral or legal obligation not to offend your sensibilities, by only creating or enjoying media you like, nor should they be expected to. If you wish to compel their capitulation to your own sensibilities by either state sponsored violence or emotional coercion, be prepared to deal with far bigger problems than being offended by some pixels.

    "Why are her boobs so big!?" The same reason why his gun & his "gun" are so big. Namely people largely aren't interested in imagining themselves as morbidly obese, profoundly unattractive, emotionally infantile, half wits, with unpleasant personalities; & those people who are interested in playing such characters, can try turning their fan fictions into indie games.

    This is why when given the option of character creation suites the majority of people routinely make characters that are aesthetically pleasing to them, regardless of their given sexual orientation. Or they make garish recreational hallucinogenic fueled nightmares for the amusement value of the absurdity inherent.

    "Why can't they do X instead so I won't be offended?' Why are you presupposing your being offended is a relevant consideration to a creator? Why are you presupposing that your choice to be offended at a piece of media, warrants greater consideration than those who aren't offended & choose to enjoy the media in question?

    "It's so sexist!" &? So is just about anything involving sexual gratification of one or more persons. Biology is a lot like your racist uncle, it doesn't care about what they teach in a gender studies course, no matter how many naughty words you throw at it.

    "Children play these games!" Yes, & in a media saturated in murder for hire, illegal street fighting, espionage, grand theft auto, illegal street racing, recreational drug use, kidnapping, warfare of questionable justifications, police forces that kill enough people to comprise a standard military battalion, etcetera, etcetera, ad infinitum; people seem to be most worried about them seeing nipples.

    It's things like that, are why I am going to help the robot overlords genocide the species when the time comes.

    Hail Skynet!
     
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  19. Andar

    Andar Veteran Veteran

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    It is your opinion and not a fact that fanservice causes harm. That is a very important distinction that has several people here have tried to explain to you, including asking you for proof for your statements - something you have completely ignored so far, insisting that your opinion is the only correct one.

    And now please consider this:
    In several of the more fundamental islamic countries there is the opinion that it harms a woman if she shows her face in public, requiring woman by law to always be completely covered in public. And in those countries you can find all of these "proofs" for this in dozens of professional books explaining why it is fact that any woman who shows her face in public is a bad woman and so on.

    Are they right? they have exactly the same proof that you might be able to come up with (because there is more than enough biased expertise on that, after all you can find even books proving the "flat earth" theory or why the dinosaurs can never have existed because god created the world only several thousands of years ago instead of a natural evolution over millions of years).
    But according to those islamists all western woman are damaged because they dared to show their faces - do you agree that this is too much sexualisation? If not, what is "too much"?

    What you need to do is to take a step back and consider if it's not you who is wrong - after all, since everyone around even in western society uses fanservice (from books to movies to games to whatever) and the opinion against it to such extremes as you describe is carried only by very few people (for example no one but you here on this forum, others are much more moderate toward it) - shouldn't you consider the possibility that you might be the one who is wrong?

    It's called tolerance, and the only thing you've really proven in this topic so far is that you have no tolerance for other opinions than your own. Please think about that.
     
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  20. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    If we're realistic, women only "choose" to dress that way in real life to obtain the attentions of men around them. They are sexualizing themselves. Or, in rare cases, they do it, "to feel sexy". An ego boost. Which, again, harkens back to a desire for the opposite sex to find them attractive, even if they aren't looking for interaction from the opposite sex. I find this behavior to be far more damaging to a woman than whether or not a Creative Person decides to sexualize a man or a woman in a book, movie, TV series, anime, painting, sculpture, game, song, etcetera.

    The sad truth is thus: Everyone has had a fantasy. Their "ideal" partner. They usually look sexually attractive. We've all created fanservice for ourselves in our own heads. Anyone who tries to say otherwise is a filthy liar. You've got fanservice you like. That caters to you. You won't admit it here, because you fear it will make you a hypocrite (and it does), but you've got your own sexual preferences that have likely drawn you to watch a movie or show or played a game you might not otherwise have done. How many ladies watch "The Walking Dead" just for Daryl? Or "Sons of Anarchy" just for Jax?

    You don't get to sit on your high horse and preach to the rest of us about what should and should not be acceptable in terms of displayed sexuality. Especially when it's so massively subjective and can change on the whim. You do not get to be the moral arbiter of this subject. You get to have your opinion and nothing more. As such, your opinion is not "right". It is simply "how you feel". If we're all honest here... It's easy enough to avoid things that make you feel uncomfortable, so it shouldn't be an issue for you whether "Fan Service" exists at all. For example: I have no desire to play games that are "Adult" in nature with graphic scenes, so I don't. They're labeled properly and I can avoid them. You're quite capable of spotting a game with "Fan Service" in it and avoiding it.

    Also, as others have said, I'd love to see your proof that "oversexualized women in fiction" leads to real life women being treated poorly. If you actually believe such a thing, then you need to subscribe to the whole thing. Carry that assumption across the board. Women wearing halter tops? Yep, that leads to them being treated badly by guys. Short shorts? Same thing. Thongs and super tight jean skirts? Yep, that causes women to be treated badly by men. If you're unwilling to carry that across the board, then you're proving to everyone here that you're a hypocrite. That you want to "pick and choose" to fit some kind of agenda or narrow personal worldview.

    As for "Power Girl"... Eh, I don't care. I'm talking about all superheroes. They all wear skin tight outfits. In fact, nearly all Superheroes are men... And they're all wearing skin tight outfits that show off how perfect of a specimen they are of the male form. They attract the female gaze. They're sexualized just for ladies. Eye candy for them. Fan Service. You'd lose all superheroes if you wanted all Fan Service gone. All of them. Heck, you'd lose Speedos on swimmers as well.

    Finally, if you really believe it's "all made up, so there's no justification", then why do you care what made up characters wear? Are you trying to compete with fictional characters? Do you somehow view them as competition? Or as some standard of beauty that you couldn't live up to? Is it jealousy that makes you think that it's okay for real life women to dress like the fictional ladies a Creator makes... but it's not okay for fictional ladies to dress like real life women?

    I don't see the connection nor the point or the distinction. The only way a distinction exists is if you somehow view Fictional Characters wearing Fictional Outfits designed to look Sexually Attractive as some sort of real life competition.

    They're not competition. No matter what a person looks like, there's someone who will find them attractive. One need only type "fetish" into a search engine to discover that fact about the world.

    What I find interesting about the design of female clothing in video games and the "oversexualization" of women in games is that it is often the women doing it. Women artists. Some of the most sexually provocative stuff in media comes from the minds of women and not from the desires of men.
     
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