Why don't you sell your game? How can I change your mind?

Mouser

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Art and music rips for those games are easy to get, but I'd need to find someone to do more art and maybe music. Obviously that's a fan game and not intended to be sold, but the "art problem" is the same for original projects
Just so you know, with few exceptions, "rips" are just as illegal in free games as they are in commercial ones.

Expect DCMA takedown and cease and desist notices if you go that route.

And if you broke any sort of "protection" (encryption or any other kind) to get those rips, it becomes criminal.

Speaking for the U.S. only.

EDit: changed "fan" to "free" to be more clear
 
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Shaz

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If you're making a commercial game, or aiming to, you wouldn't be considering using art and music rips anyway. Where to get art and music is more of a problem for commercial games because the developer has this in mind. But there are still several options available.
 

Pegasus

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As Shaz said in the post above, do not use rips graphics for a commercial game. In fact the best advice is to never use any rips of any commercial games as placeholders graphics in your game. Why? because after you will replace the rips arts with your custom graphics, there could be a possibility that you might end up forgetting a rip sprite in your folder and you might end up selling the game with the rip sprite. This has happenned in the rpgmaker commercial market and fortunately no one were sued in court in this episode.
 
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Just so you know, with few exceptions, "rips" are just as illegal in free games as they are in commercial ones.

Expect DCMA takedown and cease and desist notices if you go that route.

And if you broke any sort of "protection" (encryption or any other kind) to get those rips, it becomes criminal.

Speaking for the U.S. only.

EDit: changed "fan" to "free" to be more clear
IANAL, but my understanding is that a fan game is a transformative work whereas a free game that merely uses copyrighted assets is not. I repeat that I would never use copyrighted material for a commercial work. I would not use copyrighted materials for any kind of original work, e.g. using Ace Attorney sprites for a totally different lawyer game with different characters that happen to look identical to Capcom's. That wouldn't be transformation, just plain copyright infringement. Regardless of the legal merits, Court-Records.net has been hosting AA art rips and a bustling fan game/spriting community for more than five years, so I'm not really worried about Capcom's iron fist. Your concern is touching, though.

Anyway, apologies for the detour. My question was where to find artists for hire and how best to vet them? I'd love some elaboration on that. It is seriously my biggest stumbling block.
 

EVILrokzz

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My reason for not going commercial is simple - I can't even buy RM Ace in my country because it is unsupported by paypal.
 

Indinera

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Oh, this is not cool... sorry to hear that! :mellow:
 

Leinkreig

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The way I see it with commercial games is that the people you're using materials from will expect a commission or something of the sort so they feel like they've gained what they deserved from it (which I agree with; it makes sense.)

Thing is, though, that some actually expect the pay before you earn any money, so if you're low on wage when you first start and they expect pay already, you don't stand much of a chance. And for those who don't expect any pay, the other games will most likely be using them anyway, so it'll be hard to show variance to all the other RPG Maker games that have become commercial.

I, myself, was honestly debating whether I should go commercial or not, as it'd be awesome to earn money from doing what I enjoy.
 

B2tR

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Haha, just googled it, funny acronym :D I'm currently working on a free game. My process of thought is that it's not really a good idea to start off with a commercial project. Especially if you are new to the program (which I am not), i doubt that you can create anything worth money, especially compared to the great games that are available for free. Also the whole RPG Maker scene is community based, many talented people give away their work (as in resources or games) for free and sometimes I don't see, why I should buy an RPG Maker game if there's plenty of others of high or even higher quality that are completely free.

BUT I can also understand that people want to earn some money with what they have worked for very hard. And I also see that probably the biggest market for commercial RPG Maker games is not in the actual RPG Maker community. My plan is to finish 2 games and give them out for free, then make a commercial game. Reasons: 1. Once I've finished two games, I gained a lot of experience and feedback, so I have the possibility of creating a REALLY good game (not that the ones before will be bad or anything) 2. Once I've given out two games for free 'to the community' I think it will be a lot more accepted when I create a third and make it commercial. As in people know that my name stands for a certain quality they can expect (sounds stupid, but yea...).
 

Shaz

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@EVILrokzz, are you saying that Paypal is not supported in your country? You should contact one of the admins about that - maybe Touchfuzzy? There might be other alternatives.

@Dezz, yes, it's common for contractors to want to be paid when they have done the work, regardless of what industry you're in. They don't want to (and shouldn't have to) take a risk of waiting until your game is released to be paid. What if your game is never released? What if sales are really low? YOUR game is YOUR risk - it shouldn't be theirs. You may get some people who will agree to work for a % of profits (called royalties) after the game is released, but there are not many of them, and no professionals would do that with you unless you had a proven track record. Your options are to gather people from the community who would help you just because they like to, and are happy to accept revenues, taking the risk with you that the game may or may not be released and sell well, to save money from your day job and contract resources as you're able to pay for them (and if you only earn a little, that means it'll take much longer to release the game), or to investigate other sources of funding - Kickstarter, for instance.
 

Rengoku

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I'm probably a unique case. My game is self-funded with a budget of $10,000.00, but I don't intend to go commercial with it.

There are three reasons for this: 1) The parts of game development I suck at the most are nearly impossible to commission or obtain from someone else (mapping/tilesets - can you even commission someone to map for you? I don't know), and doing the mapping myself would lower the quality of the game below something I'd feel comfortable selling. 2) I'm a senior contract paralegal, and I'm intimately familiar with the rabid nature of copyright litigation. Anyone who can sue you will do so for little or no reason, and I don't really want the stress of plexing over whether or not some of my resources might look like someone else's resources when viewed at 24% opacity, under a full moon, in March on the planet Jupiter, and why am I a plagiarising bastard for not giving them 90% of my money? It's not that any of these cases are really valid, but it takes significant time, money and effort to fight off even a frivolous lawsuit. 3) Ultimately, to me it's a hobby and not an enterprise. If I start looking at my game with the intent of taking it commercial, I start unconsciously making changes for the benefit of the 'business' and not the game. I start cutting corners to get the next product out earlier, to get the cash flow moving again, and not to make the (admittedly few) people who will eventually play it immersed in the story, characters and gameplay.

To me, this is like any other hobby or pasttime. If I wasn't putting my money into this, which to me is a significant creative venture, and something I truly enjoy thinking and dreaming about, it would go to something transient. A concert, a basketball game, a vacation that will be over in a few days, some decorative piece with dubious usefulness that I'd regret buying the next day. To me, it's about creating something, and it can be very easy to stymie creativity and inspiration with the allure of the almighty dollar.
 

Shaz

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Yes, you can commission someone to map for you. You might be lucky and find someone who will create the tilesets for you AND do the maps - they would be the most familiar with how the tiles can be used together for best effect.
 

EVILrokzz

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@Shaz, Yes, Paypal is not supported in my country... hellholes get no love :( Anyway, I contacted Touchfuzzy and will wait for a reply. Another alternative is for someone to buy it for me and I'll send them the money via. western union or stg. but my buying it myself is a bit of a stretch. Anyway, thanks for the heads up!
 

Clord

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Something else I thought about, but I'm not sure if this is really a good idea or not. Of course, with the exception to game design, there's really nothing that would hold a person back in terms of resources. Even if you can't do your own, there's a lot of free scripts available, and some really cheap, along with a boatload of resources available through the RM store for very little money. So technically, you can switch up the RTP with really cheap resources as well.

Aside from this, however, I can understand with legal contracts, copyrights, fees, collecting money, and whatever else can get in the way of people selling their game.

But we also know it's possible, and some have made a decent success out of this.

If people are intimidated by the process, most notably first time game designers breaking into the commercial environment, perhaps they can contract on with another successful designer that already knows the process for assistance. For example (using Shaz as an example, not necessarily saying Shaz should do this), Game Designer A (GDA) makes a game he wants to sell, but he doesn't know where to go from there, so maybe Shaz could charge a fee and be willing to extend his hand through the process and show GDA what he needs to do.

Next game, GDA will know the process, and maybe in turn he'll be willing to teach it to others as well.
One guy who leads somewhat experienced team contacted me and suddenly my game is getting overhaul and might even be sold at the somepoint. So yeah, he helped me get over that nervousness to even try. Plus he has good track record, which of course increases the trust. My nervousness has started turn to excitement.
 
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Shaz

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wow, that does sound exciting :)
 

krystallinity

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If I start looking at my game with the intent of taking it commercial, I start unconsciously making changes for the benefit of the 'business' and not the game. I start cutting corners to get the next product out earlier, to get the cash flow moving again, and not to make the (admittedly few) people who will eventually play it immersed in the story, characters and gameplay.

To me, this is like any other hobby or pasttime. If I wasn't putting my money into this, which to me is a significant creative venture, and something I truly enjoy thinking and dreaming about, it would go to something transient. A concert, a basketball game, a vacation that will be over in a few days, some decorative piece with dubious usefulness that I'd regret buying the next day. To me, it's about creating something, and it can be very easy to stymie creativity and inspiration with the allure of the almighty dollar.
This is a magnificent point. Thank you for bringing up the unfortunate reality of commercialization.

I am currently working on a commercial RPG Maker VX Ace fantasy project as the lead writer and a designer, and I've found myself frequently confronted with the allure of pursuing conventions when making crucial design choices.

In my experience making a commercial product, from the decision whether or not to include fanservice in the game, to the decision of how to design the races...so many design decisions seem steeped in this looming sense of dread. Sometimes going against the established conventions of the fantasy RPG genre makes me think that I'm working AGAINST my target audience...working towards unprofitability.

I've had to force myself to take a step back from the game and re-approach it from a personal perspective. I asked myself:

1. What kind of narrative do I find most compelling?

2. What elements are missing from fantasy RPG games that I've always wished were there?

3. What can I do to shake up the tired genre without completely alienating audiences?

And to do that...you're absolutely right. You MUST look at the project as a hobby. I have a full-time, well-paying job, and this commercial project, for the team, stems exclusively from our strong desires to create.

If I were designing this project to earn a salary, all of the innovation that I've tried to weave into the game would be lost for the sake of profits. Does that doom all commercialized, publisher-backed video games? No...there are still sparks of genius here and there (Tim Schafer's Psychonauts, Michel Ancel's Beyond Good and Evil, and Shigesato Itoi's Mother 3 come to mind).

But it's getting hard to find, especially with the whole cycle of stagnation that's popped up in the industry as game development costs have skyrocketed.

(Video games become increasingly expensive to make -> Investors want to ensure they get their money back -> Profits are down because of perceived industry stagnation -> Sequels and conventions ensure profit -> Sequels / conventions contribute to stagnation -> Profits continue to sink -> One company tries a risky new big-budget IP or tries to break conventions -> The new IP fails for whatever reason -> Other companies become scared to invest in new IPs / new ideas because of that unfortunate example -> Those companies invest in sequels / ideas that are known to sell -> Profits are down because of perceived industry stagnation -> Video games become increasingly expensive to make ->)

... And the cycle continues.

Thank goodness for indie developers.
 
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Indinera

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If I were designing this project to earn a salary, all of the innovation that I've tried to weave into the game would be lost for the sake of profits
You don't have to make your game for profit only. You can also make it the way you want and still sell it. Who knows, maybe it would do better this way than if you try to please the audience.
 

krystallinity

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You don't have to make your game for profit only. You can also make it the way you want and still sell it. Who knows, maybe it would do better this way than if you try to please the audience.
Innovation / making the game as if it were a hobby is the plan for our project...it's just when you know the RPG is going to be commercialized at the end of the day, the designer gets faced with temptations.

I've had to work to overcome those temptations.
 
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Gigglemoo

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What Indi said.

You guys don't have to think like that at all. :)

The way I see it is this:

"Has this person bought the game yet?"

Anything goes if they're past that point.
 

B.Loder

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I saw the guy over there "EVILrokzz" and i fell bad for getting to the commercial ideas so late. I'm Brazilian and we have more games in english, so our culture is simple, most people don't understand the history, so they play only by the gameplay, the result is a non rpg nation. Almost everyone i know that don't understand english hate the rpg's, the rpg maker foruns do not have that problem, but one thing is clear, those people do not like the idea of making a game that no one will buy. So in Brazil we have rpg maker only as a hobby. After seeing this forum, i got the ideas and now i'm trying to put everything on and make a game and sell it.Another thing that let me down, is that most of people who uses the rpg maker, have their own ideas, and mostly don't want to help another game, and making a whole game from zero, is very hard. So i guess there are different reasons to everyone, i just hope the ones with the big ideas like to the moon accomplish their dream.
 
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Kyriaki

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Personally, I was thinking of creating a commercial game out of one of my stories with VX Ace in the near future, if I ever get around to finishing my serious, free VX Projects first. ^^; Before recently, however, I felt like releasing something commercial was a far off, unattainable thing simply because as has been said there are a severe lack of resources one can use when it comes to making even a somewhat unique commercial project, never mind something fully unique. Also I would agree that it felt like there was no haven for commercial RPG Maker games since it was something looked down upon as something laughable since it is the "beginner's game maker" or uninteresting to other developers who use the same engine.

Of course, there was also the uncertainty of how to go about it as far as getting it published and making money went too since those kinds of things don't seem to be openly discussed and I am rather clueless about them.
 

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