Why is the RPG Maker name so hated?

[amerk]

The problem is, if you're aiming for a setup like Steam, then choosing to ignore what you deem as "would be game developer snobs" (which in this case would be the players) means you risk losing votes that will allow you a pass through Greenlight and access to the Steam store, unless you can convince a publisher to take you on and get you through GL without the votes.

Unlike other platforms, you can't just stroll into Steam and expect that you're going going to get on without first convincing the voters that this game needs to be included in the Steam store.

I'm not saying the RTP can't make good commercial games and that you should spend a boatload of money on custom resources, but a "tough ****" attitude won't fly with a lot of players, especially if they're in the power to vote whether you're game gets included or not. If you are going to use the RTP for a commercial game, you had best be damned sure that it's used exceptionally well and stands out over the thousand of free titles using the same resources.

One other point:

The internet is full of free resources, but a lot of those are incomplete and will clash with one another if used within the same project (not to mention you need to understand their terms for commercial use). If you are using something that doesn't compliment the RTP along with the RTP itself, it will be spotted and you can believe you will be called out for it. I still have a hard time playing games that try to mix parts of the RTP with Mack, because the sets are so different. My advice, use the RTP if that's what makes you feel comfortable, but invest in some of the packs on the store, because a lot of these can be used alongside of the RTP. That way, you don't spend a lot of money, but you get access to a wider range of resources so you're not just stuck with the RTP.

 

[RaZzi]

Just went through whole lot of RPGS again in Greenlight and omg, the rpg maker games are just soooo bad. This annoys me a lot!

 

[amerk]

There's a few in GL that I've voted for that seems like it could be enjoyable, as long as it's priced right. Then there are several others I've had to downvote because I knew I wouldn't play them even if they were free.

 

[whitesphere]

I think the quality of the game is the most important factor.  Now, certainly, using the RTP can be limiting, but the real issue is this:  Is the game fun to play?  That's the hardest thing to do.  Quite frankly, adding custom graphics later is a lot easier than making a really good game.

Now, if you want a custom look to your game, there are many inexpensive ways to do so.  The Resource Packs have a huge variety of music, tiles and the likes, all very inexpensively ($30 at most, I think).  I'd start with them, and look for other freely available custom resources.  Those should allow an ambitious but cash poor developer to make a very nifty looking game without spending thousands of dollars up front.

As for custom artwork:

Why are you making the game?  Are you making it to show off to your friends (hey look, we can play through our lives!)?  Are you making it to improve your skills?  Are you making it because you feel you have a story that must be told?  

If you are doing any of those reasons, it doesn't matter if the game wouldn't pass through Steam's Greenlight, because that's not your goal.  So, if you don't want to spend the cash for custom artwork, there's literally no need.

If you are aiming to make a commercial game, or get started as a professional game developer, that might change things and might need some degree of custom artwork.

However, as some professional artists have mentioned, it takes a LONG time to create something like a full tileset.  So naturally they will cost a lot more, easily into the thousands of dollars.  I'm sure custom music, battlers, scripts also will add up.

Personally, I'd say beef up and boost your game development skills so you can get the maximum use out of every resource you have, long before you even think about spending the cash for custom resources.    

It's sort of like saying "I've just started playing violin.  I'll go out and buy a Strad so my music sounds amazing!"  Until you're really able to get the most out of what you have, you won't get the most out of custom artwork, either.  And you might not know enough about, say, tile placement to be able to communicate properly to the artist what you really need.

 

[saintivan]

whitesphere has some good points, but even with resource packs, tilesets are the big limitation, (outside of the aforementioned buying an entire custom set). For a modest investment (or if you have the talent) you can start getting original character art, battlers, and music...but it will add up fast, especially if you want higher end. This seems to be a prerequisite for having a chance at being Greenlit, regardless of how great your story is.

 

[amerk]

That may be true for true lovers of j-rpg style games, but the majority of people judge a game not by playing a demo or reading the feature list, but by looking at screenshots and watching a trailer. If RPG Maker and RTP come screaming out at them, it's not going to matter how good the story is or how well the game plays. They're going to automatically dismiss it.

Personally, this is why I'm thankful for sites like Desura, Aldorlea, and Amaranth. It caters to the niche audience of 2D rpg's. Sure, getting on a more high-end portal like Steam can be a dream come true, but you have to be willing to bend to the audience's demands. Now, this time last year, I'd have said your chances were very slim. In the past year we've seen more voters come through, and as a result, more interest in 2D rpg's. This is probably to do with both RPG Maker software selling on Steam and the Humble Bundle. In order to vote on GL, you need to have made at least one purchase in the Steam store in the life of the account you are using. Buying the HB and getting Steam keys counted as a purchase, making it much easier for the typical non-Steam user to finally be able to vote to get games included.

Hopefully when these games get completed, these voters won't shy away from Steam, but continue to show their support by actually buying the games they voted for.

 

[taarna23]

That may be true for true lovers of j-rpg style games, but the majority of people judge a game not by playing a demo or reading the feature list, but by looking at screenshots and watching a trailer. If RPG Maker and RTP come screaming out at them, it's not going to matter how good the story is or how well the game plays. They're going to automatically dismiss it.

Then, I feel, people need to learn how to get a good screenshot. Is your screenshot of you party standing around in a forest, or is it of the beginning (spoiler-free, of course) of that dramatic moment when your party gets broken up and your main hero is on their own? Is it the beginning of a battle against a slime, or is it when that amazing skill you put together just strikes that scary-looking boss your team is up against?

Like the rest of this, screenshots are work. So don't do it halfway.

RTP is like a brand new Lego kit. One of those big ones that I wonder if you can even get anymore. It has all the basic pieces and some of the neat ones. Can you build something awesome? Absolutely you can, with the right effort and imagination. Can you build something even more awesome with a collection of add-on kits? Definitely. The same idea resides here. Just don't underestimate the fact that this is going to be work. You've been handed the bucket of Lego, but no one's going to build your dream whatever for you. You have the Maker, no one's going to build your game for you.

I think that's where we lose people - it looks easy until the scope of the work sets in, at which point even if they complete the game, they don't want to do the work, so they mash everything together and say "look, it's done." At which point, we get crap games.

Which brings me to another point - crap games. People are making it sound like RPG Maker is the only thing that makes crap games. The simple truth behind this is the length of time it has been around. If any other tool commonly used had been around for that long, and had been maintained and used by as many people as RPG Maker has, it can pretty much be guaranteed that it would carry a similar stigma. However, other common (and in many cases free) tools are too new, and don't come with the amount of material that RPG Maker does, meaning not only have they not built as widely-known a name, but they're also less likely to be picked up by a complete beginner.

 

[Ksi]

I have played a lot of games - both good and bad - in my time in the community and let me sit you right down and tell you what makes a good game. fricking heart. HEART.

You could have the worst graphics in the world and it wouldn't matter if your game had charm and was fun to play. If the characters feel alive and you are enjoying the story it doesn't matter what the Frick a game looks like (as long as you can tell one hero from another and sometimes that's not even necessary). Examples to this? Clouded Heart, Romancing Walker and Manifest.

And people ragging on the RTP? Sit the Frick down and take notes.

You can have the pimpest graphics and still have the most boring game in the world. Trust me on this - I have seen so many great looking games with incredible polish and shine that are just let down completely by either writing, bugs or gameplay. It doesn't matter if the sun shines out of the ass of the graphics you use if you don't use them correctly, either. So many a fan game that used rips from games like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6 that just looked like complete **** because people didn't know how to use their fricking graphics.

The RTP is a powerful tool, not only because it is a complete graphics (and sound) pack but because it's so fricking easy to edit that there is no fricking reason that your game should look like anyone else's even using the RTP as base. Oh, and it blends in well with other graphics that are available for free like the ever-awesome Mack tiles and the various additions and edits out there for fricking free. And even if you don't edit, a competent map can look as good as, or better than, a custom map any day of the week, no parallaxing necassary. So sit the Frick down and pay attention! If your game looks like every other game out there you just ain't doing it right, sucka!

Does

This

Look

Like

A

fricking

Game

To

You ?

RTP

HOW

DO?!?!?!?!

Thank you and I'm out.

*Princess drops the mic*

 

[saintivan]

Ksi says: "let me sit you right down and tell you what makes a good game. fricking heart. HEART."   

Correct! If you have any feelings while playing....if you miss it when it's over...that is a game you will remember fondly.

 

[Ultimacj]

I have played a lot of games - both good and bad - in my time in the community and let me sit you right down and tell you what makes a good game. fricking heart. HEART.

You could have the worst graphics in the world and it wouldn't matter if your game had charm and was fun to play. If the characters feel alive and you are enjoying the story it doesn't matter what the Frick a game looks like (as long as you can tell one hero from another and sometimes that's not even necessary). Examples to this? Clouded Heart, Romancing Walker and Manifest.

And people ragging on the RTP? Sit the Frick down and take notes.

You can have the pimpest graphics and still have the most boring game in the world. Trust me on this - I have seen so many great looking games with incredible polish and shine that are just let down completely by either writing, bugs or gameplay. It doesn't matter if the sun shines out of the ass of the graphics you use if you don't use them correctly, either. So many a fan game that used rips from games like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6 that just looked like complete **** because people didn't know how to use their fricking graphics.

The RTP is a powerful tool, not only because it is a complete graphics (and sound) pack but because it's so fricking easy to edit that there is no fricking reason that your game should look like anyone else's even using the RTP as base. Oh, and it blends in well with other graphics that are available for free like the ever-awesome Mack tiles and the various additions and edits out there for fricking free. And even if you don't edit, a competent map can look as good as, or better than, a custom map any day of the week, no parallaxing necassary. So sit the Frick down and pay attention! If your game looks like every other game out there you just ain't doing it right, sucka!

Thank you and I'm out.

*Princess drops the mic*

As CM Punk said in the WWE: "PIPE BOMB!!"

(and I agree goes back to my first post Graphics don't make a good game.  Period.  Fact is you won't please everyone everyone is different!)

 

[Dalph]

lmao, Libby is the best of the best...with only one post she basically:

- showed her knowledge of games and game making

- owned all the RTP haters and the "custom graphics" addicts

- showed her awesome mapping skills

- made me laugh so much (with the text on the screenshots part)

- basically ended this useless rant thread

*The Dark Lord bows at the RTP Princess*

 

[Faye Valentine]

I have played a lot of games - both good and bad - in my time in the community and let me sit you right down and tell you what makes a good game. fricking heart. HEART.

You could have the worst graphics in the world and it wouldn't matter if your game had charm and was fun to play. If the characters feel alive and you are enjoying the story it doesn't matter what the Frick a game looks like (as long as you can tell one hero from another and sometimes that's not even necessary). Examples to this? Clouded Heart, Romancing Walker and Manifest.

And people ragging on the RTP? Sit the Frick down and take notes.

You can have the pimpest graphics and still have the most boring game in the world. Trust me on this - I have seen so many great looking games with incredible polish and shine that are just let down completely by either writing, bugs or gameplay. It doesn't matter if the sun shines out of the ass of the graphics you use if you don't use them correctly, either. So many a fan game that used rips from games like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6 that just looked like complete **** because people didn't know how to use their fricking graphics.

The RTP is a powerful tool, not only because it is a complete graphics (and sound) pack but because it's so fricking easy to edit that there is no fricking reason that your game should look like anyone else's even using the RTP as base. Oh, and it blends in well with other graphics that are available for free like the ever-awesome Mack tiles and the various additions and edits out there for fricking free. And even if you don't edit, a competent map can look as good as, or better than, a custom map any day of the week, no parallaxing necassary. So sit the Frick down and pay attention! If your game looks like every other game out there you just ain't doing it right, sucka!

Thank you and I'm out.

*Princess drops the mic*

So, finally someone had the balls to say it. God almighty thank you.

This thread was making me sick, for real. Yo', freakin' Dhux's Scar was a game with amateur graphics, sure they were half custom half RTP, but still was a pretty amateur pixel art and guess what, it's my favorite game, and a lot of people's favorite game and is a well known game in the spanish community (to me, a legend) People whining about RTP makes me so angry. That's the reason why i prefer to not say anything. And also that my English is pretty pathetic and i couldn't maintain an argument but whatever xD

Well played RTP Princess, well played. You're awesome.

 

[sabao]

If you read up a little bit more, you'll realize some posts aren't bashing on the RTP's quality. In my opinion at least, I believe the larger concern is that the ubiquity of the RTP and its overall aesthetic makes it difficult to create a visual identity for your project that is unique to itself. "RTP Haters" can say all they want though. Fact of the matter is, I don't think they were ever the market for indie games in our level.

 

[taarna23]

If you read up a little bit more, you'll realize some posts aren't bashing on the RTP's quality. In my opinion at least, I believe the larger concern is that the ubiquity of the RTP and its overall aesthetic makes it difficult to create a visual identity for your project that is unique to itself. "RTP Haters" can say all they want though. Fact of the matter is, I don't think they were ever the market for indie games in our level.

Methinks you missed Ksi's point completely. And I mean really completely. As she points out, if your game looks like everyone else's you're doing it wrong. Give 10 people the RTP and say "build me a castle," unless these people have zero creativity whatsoever, you will have 10 different castles. Even if the base tiles they use are the same, you're still going to have 10 different castles. One person adds a dungeon. Another makes castle ruins. Another makes one with lots of little rooms. Another has hidden passages. Another has extra-tall walls because hey, it's a castle.

So, if you can't build yourself a unique castle with the RTP, maybe you shouldn't be doing the mapping. If you're a team one one, maybe you should be getting critiques and editing. If you can't handle critiques, you're going to need a new hobby. Like, yesterday.

 

[sabao]

Methinks you missed Ksi's point completely. And I mean really completely. As she points out, if your game looks like everyone else's you're doing it wrong. Give 10 people the RTP and say "build me a castle," unless these people have zero creativity whatsoever, you will have 10 different castles. Even if the base tiles they use are the same, you're still going to have 10 different castles. One person adds a dungeon. Another makes castle ruins. Another makes one with lots of little rooms. Another has hidden passages. Another has extra-tall walls because hey, it's a castle.

So, if you can't build yourself a unique castle with the RTP, maybe you shouldn't be doing the mapping. If you're a team one one, maybe you should be getting critiques and editing. If you can't handle critiques, you're going to need a new hobby. Like, yesterday.

I don't believe I did. At the end of the day, I look at screen shots and tell which games masterfully used the RTP and which ones didn't. But they're still RTP.

But again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. The RTP is a practical solution for small teams taking on huge projects like a JRPG. We can't all afford or are capable of creating custom graphics, especially in a volume large enough to make an entire game that's graphically consistent. That's cool. We also seem to have a small niche market somewhere out there to make a living as proven by Ardorlea. What I'm having trouble believing is whether or not it's even worthwhile trying to change the minds of these 'RTP Haters'. They obviously can't see the RTP Forest for its trees, so why bother?

 

[DavidGil]

I don't believe I did. At the end of the day, I look at screen shots and tell which games masterfully used the RTP and which ones didn't. But they're still RTP.

But again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. The RTP is a practical solution for small teams taking on huge projects like a JRPG. We can't all afford or are capable of creating custom graphics, especially in a volume large enough to make an entire game that's graphically consistent. That's cool. We also seem to have a small niche market somewhere out there to make a living as proven by Ardorlea. What I'm having trouble believing is whether or not it's even worthwhile trying to change the minds of these 'RTP Haters'. They obviously can't see the RTP Forest for its trees, so why bother?

It's not.

And as an aside, take a look at Solo's game, Elements: Soul of Fire. Seven years making it, graphics he made himself and it still gets pulled down, though sure, I acknowledge the graphics might not be to everyone's tastes. It really is not worth thinking you have to spend money to get custom graphics etc. if you cannot afford it and the key words here are 'cannot afford it', because you will face people pulling you down no matter what and making quick, snap judgements that can, at times, be totally illogical to anyone in the know (meaning the types of comments like 'rpg maker game, thrown together in five mins, shouldn't be here'). You might as well use the DLC or the RTP. (Would you believe it if I said someone claimed that 3d meshes could be put together very quickly? I'm not an artist, but if pixel art is very hard and time consuming, then surely 3D meshes should be harder)

And I can summarise all of the hate succintly too: It's because of people. Nothing else. I think the only reason they pick on RPG Maker Games is because it's easy. 'Some' people just dislike Indie games in general or they just love to complain about anything. There is no satisfying them and they're not our target audience.

 

[Ultimacj]

Sums the saying "Haters gonna hate"

 

[DavidGil]

Exactly.

 

[sabao]

I hate that line, but yeah pretty much my point in a sentence. Ignore that end of the market and all is peachy.

 

[Krishna Siva]

First I thought RPG Maker was nasty when I was using 001 game creator... but then, when I used the trial version, It was really amazing. But the wide spread

critisism makes it look like it's bad, you have to try it in order to realize what it can do. Like Uzuki said, we can't make millions with it, but still you can at least make minimum $10 with Rpg Maker.