Why is the RPG Maker name so hated?

[pavilion5097]

So I have one question since i think alot has been said here. But have you had anyone else play test the game besides close friends/family?

The reason I ask is because the first game i made which was early this year.... I thought it was amazing and tons of fun and i had a few of my close friends play test it for bugs and issues. They never said they hated the game or that there were flaws with how i set things up so i thought yes this is it a game i made that is fun and will be great to release!

I went to reddit and the forums on here and released a demo because i was getting close to release. Didn't get many responses but there were 2 people who wrote out paragraphs of info on what they liked and didnt like. At the time i thought "oh they didn't like it because they dont understand why i made that decision"  and i kindof ignored it. Life got in the way and i couldnt work on the game for a month but when i came back and did another play though i started understanding where those 2 people were coming from. Ive since then scrapped alot of what i did but have spent easily an extra 400 hours working on making it better.

What im trying to get across is as the developer you probably see it as this amazing work of art and no one can understand why its so great. But as a developer we sometimes have to step back take a break and look at it in a new light. What you might think is people hating because it doesnt fit their taste might not actually be the case and having people that dont know you very well play test your game will give you that cruciel input you need to make your game better.

 

[Sakuri]

So I have one question since i think alot has been said here. But have you had anyone else play test the game besides close friends/family?

The reason I ask is because the first game i made which was early this year.... I thought it was amazing and tons of fun and i had a few of my close friends play test it for bugs and issues. They never said they hated the game or that there were flaws with how i set things up so i thought yes this is it a game i made that is fun and will be great to release!

I went to reddit and the forums on here and released a demo because i was getting close to release. Didn't get many responses but there were 2 people who wrote out paragraphs of info on what they liked and didnt like. At the time i thought "oh they didn't like it because they dont understand why i made that decision"  and i kindof ignored it. Life got in the way and i couldnt work on the game for a month but when i came back and did another play though i started understanding where those 2 people were coming from. Ive since then scrapped alot of what i did but have spent easily an extra 400 hours working on making it better.

What im trying to get across is as the developer you probably see it as this amazing work of art and no one can understand why its so great. But as a developer we sometimes have to step back take a break and look at it in a new light. What you might think is people hating because it doesnt fit their taste might not actually be the case and having people that dont know you very well play test your game will give you that cruciel input you need to make your game better.

Yes i did do that strategy, i gave copies to people who grade indie games and they said it was great, aside from a few bugs that i patched up. And i can see why people are gonna hate it, it seems mediocre with the content i provided. I will be putting a new set up for people later this week.

 

[Olivier]

I think this video explains very well why the rpg maker name is hated


tl;dr: some people are too lazy/stupid to make decent, actually functioning ORIGINAL games

 

[Andar]

Please stop using this topic to discuss or bash on a single game



Even if that developer made some mistakes, this topic is NOT about that game.


Please make a new topic in project development if you want to discuss how to improve that game (and be sure to check the rules for project development before posting there)

 

[terrorchan]

Most of the stuff made with RPG maker is utter garbage. I can think of a few instances where this wasn't the case. 

 

[Ultimacj]

I can see why people bash games because yes a lot of people make crap games and "half-ass it" most of the time.  Regardless of RM or not, I hate games that that get lazy in the end.


As for bashing, I agree with Andar however at the same time since my time here I've notice people are extremely critical at people who make games regardless it's commercial or not.  Tileset's being one of them "Oh no I see he/she used a ceiling tile where it should be a wall instead let's just completely attack that and nothing else".  I've seen a lot of posts like that.  At the same time though, some feed back has been useful.  Especially for my first project I've learned a lot and helped me to a degree.  At the same time though (now trending lol), I've seen a lot of nick pickers which at the end doesn't really help develop better games.   Everyone has their "standards" to when it comes to games and sometimes the community is extremely helpful while at other times are not.  Some people like a lot of detail and some don't, but as a community as a whole from reading lots of forum posts it almost feels that there's a standard to follow (not everyone is skilled as Celienna - heck I know I'm not whether it's making a tile set or applying or both).  I think this could hurt RM alone because if everyone followed one set of standards and practices (not just the atypical ones) we'd never have a "great game".  I've played a few RM games that didn't follow the community's input and most were pretty good.  My first project did go against a lot of the 'practices' granted I was still new at the time.  Of course at other places such as Aveyond or other side RM sites I got completely different input.  I'm working hard on my second project which I already posted in the development section nearly 6 months ago, and never got one feedback.  I've learned from the community here and it's helped out a lot (thanks !) but again it goes to those standards which in the end 'some feedback is better than no feedback'.  But my project alone other developers projects may suffer from the same fate of 'didn't go with the standards here' so no feedback.  It might be that fear of "oh they didn't mold the game into  our image it's gonna suck' aspect.


I know I sound like I'm putting the forum here up front the most because it's the meat and potatoes of the community for here alone.  I think that's one aspect that hurts RM at times. 

 

[bgillisp]

I personally think some of the problem is there is an unofficial standard that is considered standard just because that is what everyone else has done, and if you deviate from it, then you get bashed. The example @ultimacj posted above me is one example. The other is the carpets...why do the carpets have to be a certain way? And for that matter, why are you so focused on the %#^&& carpets anyways? Is that all you look at when you go into a house? Maybe this society has carpets in a different style than ours? Ever stop to think about that?


I think that is also some of the problem. People are unwilling to consider that maybe the reason you deviate from the 'standard' is you want to communicate a different society. Maybe they use magic and have houses that hang from the air? Maybe the builder was drunk and put a ceiling tile in place of a wall? Or maybe that was the only tile that was the right color and style for the developer, so they used it as a ceiling. But instead people bash the mapping because it breaks an unofficial standard, and don't stop to look at why was it done that way. Then, once those bash posts get up there, people follow like sheep and instead don't look at the game, and just say "Well, x says the mapping sucks, so I'll say it too."


So in my opinion, we are not helping the community one bit when we bash a game automatically because someone didn't use the RTP in a way that we think is standard. We need to keep in mind there is no standard (do you see anything in the documentation telling you how to use tile x? No? Thought so.), and be willing to think outside the box. Maybe if we did that, we would help others then to think more highly of games made in this engine.

 

[Lucy Fox]

Somehow I get the feeling, that the makers are mostly hated on Steam Greenlight. A lot of people seem to accept RM games, as long as they have something to offer.


The problem with Greenlight is imho not, that people don't like the games themselves, but are just not willing to pay for them. Especially not when there are enough (often) better free games around.


Also the often non-existing ability to accept critisism. (no, I don't want to bash the game from the last few pages. This issue is often present.)


People show some sort of interest in telling the Devs how they could make the game pay-worthy. And then get rejected or even offended.


Of course, this happens with other devs on other engines as well. But RM is quite remarkable and you tend to remember issues with such stuff better then with game X on Engine Y.

 

[Ultimacj]

@bgillispI completely agree.  Carpets I've seen done different ways and I have not seen one "positive" thing about it on any project.  (Please correct if I'm wrong).


When I used carpets in my first project (as well as second one that's in development), I followed a similar look to Dragon Warrior series from the NES series.  This is a different generation I think because even when I've explained it I've got the reply that you've said "that's not right!".  Lucy Fox also has a point, at other RM sites, especially where you buy games at have a more positive out look vs Steam.  Maybe it's just bad luck and Steam is the "LJN" of RPG Maker?  They just take in any game regardless if it's crap or not.  And unfortunately, a lot of people have made bad games and it some how made to Steam.

 

[Sharm]

Gotta disagree with you, bgillisp.  The stuff you're mentioning isn't really a case of "I'm doing something different and I mean it to be."  You have to know and understand why the "rules" are there before you break them, otherwise you can't actually be innovative, it's just an excuse for being too lazy to learn and you end up "breaking the rules" the same way everyone else does, so there's nothing even new about it.  The "rules" that you dislike are in place for a reason.  I don't think the Great Carpet Debate™ is really appropriate here, but I could go on for pages about exactly why it actually does matter and why "it's magic" or "it's a different culture" are poor excuses at best.


Anyway, my point is, there's a difference between breaking out of the box and daring to do something different, and not really caring to understand why the box is even there in the first place.  I also don't think that pointing out problems that always seem to come up with new developers is causing stagnation in anything.  I think it's steadfastly ignoring these well known yet often repeated problems that is part of the reason why RM is hated, even among it's fans.

 

[Victor Sant]

I agree with @Sharm on this. A lot of people uses excuses like 'i'm doing different' just because they don't have any Idea of what they are doing at all. Not all people are like this, but most that make those 'mistakes' are.


The first step to 'break' a rule, is knowing that rule, doing things against rules that you don't even know of is not 'breaking rules' or 'being differen't is just being ignorant to the matter.

 

[bgillisp]

Ok, then I have to say this. Why are those rules not stated anywhere? That was honestly the one thing that infruitated (sp?) me when I was starting out, is I found NOTHING that stated this, anywhere, until someone commented on it in a game. Maybe if we want to have a standard of proper use, it needs to be posted in an EASY to find place (I emphasize easy as it might exist, but I sure didn't find it early on).


And don't suggest the hover over please on the tiles. It is about as helpful as my Analysis teacher was in grad school.

 

[AwesomeCool]

I agree with @Victor Sant and @Sharm in this case.


Yes, standards can have an unfair impact, but fighting them can also lead to things like Star Fox Zero (what is wrong with buttons Nintendo!?).


There is a reason certain things are desired in games, for they are what people want (and is known to work well).  


if one wants to change something from that standard, they have to understand why people like/want that standard in a game and make a good argument to prove that your way is better (to the target audience of the game).


...and just because everyone else is doing it is not a good reason in itself (it is basically a gimmick at that point).


ex: Everyone around here drives to work, does that make walking to work better?


edit: if the audience ends up not liking the change from the norm, then it is the developers fault for not convincing them that it is good.


You could argue that they didn't give it a fair shot, but why should they have to when there are so many games out there already?  They shouldn't have to play for 20+ hours in order to start finding enjoyment in the game and it shouldn't be expected either.

 

[bgillisp]

@AwesomeCoolI can kinda agree with that. However, if you don't try something different, then all games end up being the same generic fantasy MLXIII.


But, I still stand by my overall point: If we want to have a mapping standard communicate it better than it is currently being done. Maybe to artists it is obvious, but to those of us who are not artists (like me) I feel like we are stuck learning it via the school of hard knocks, which is probably very discouraging to new developers. Plus, some developers never come here, make a game that deviates, then post it on steam and wonder why it gets bad reviews, which is not helping RM's reputation any. We can't assume everyone is going to come here or be able to figure it out naturally. Something should change on this. Maybe if we included a tutorial game *with* the product it would help, as people can see better how to use things (and yes, I know Andar has a tutorial, but my point is not everyone comes to this site, and we need to stop assuming everyone will find it.)


As it is, right now I feel like the way we are handing this is awful. Or, let me put it in another form. If I taught my classes the way the 'standard' is communicated right now, I'd be fired. And I think that is what irks me the most about this.

 

[Sharm]

@bgillisp  They are stated, but there are just so many, too many to put in one place.  You're basically asking "what are the rules of design/composition/balance/game theory/sound/music/art/writing/ect."  There's basically an entire forum on exploring it, entire colleges based around teaching them.  Unless you mean just the mapping "rules" and there are some good tutorials on those.  But even then, the other elements of game creation bleed over.


Edit:  Yeah, that's the problem with something created for free and with crowdsourcing.  If you want something with better structure, you gotta make it worth someone's time to put in that kind of effort.

 

[bgillisp]

@Sharm: I'm not asking that far. Even 2 good tutorial maps would go miles, in a easy to find place. Enough to get the basics down. Or, in other words, maybe just better communicate that the product has sample maps. (I say this as I used the product for weeks before I learned it had sample maps).


The rest, I doubt there is much we could do, as the rest take a long time to learn. Wonder if we could get the company to include one of the well designed sample games with the product? Might go miles to helping to get rid of the bad products and help the rep some.


Back on topic now, as I thought of something more on why it is not liked, based on the bad ones I've played:


-The biggest complaint I've seen on the internet (not steam or here) is how all the RM games look alike, so it is hard to tell the good ones from the bad ones until you've invested a lot of time into a game. I know I've played a couple clunkers that are commercial games even.

 

[Victor Sant]

Ok, then I have to say this. Why are those rules not stated anywhere?

There is a rule called 'common sense' that people seems to ignore.


Returing to the "Carpet Debate™", common sense says that the places for carpets are on the floor (not only on games). You can place a carpet on wall? Yes, but this is not the place that this was intended to.


- There are people that knows that it was intended to placed on floor and placed it on the wall anyway,


- There are people that didn't know that, did that out of ignorance on the matter, and use the excuse of 'being different' to justify their mistake. (and this is where most makers are).


It's in fact very common on decoration (not only on games) people that places object on wrong places without realizing what that object was intended do, and when someone that know the object function will cristicize the placement. Some people accept their mistake, some use excuses to justify the mistake. 


TLR: a lot of makers do big mistakes and use bad excuses to justify them, instead of accepting that they did a mistake.

 

[captainproton]

As a counterpoint, some carpet tiles do actually work well as decorative wall paper--BUT you need to be sure there's a definite difference between wall and floor.

 

[bgillisp]

@Victor Saint: I wasn't talking about carpets on walls. Yes, that one makes sense. But I've seen people even dis an attempt to make a round carpet, or attempts to carpet the room and hallway (which incidentally, would mean it would look EXACTLY like the place I live in, as the place I live in is fully carpeted. Rooms, hallway, all of it). That's what I was getting at. But, no one seems to want to accept carpets that are not perfect little 3 x 3 boxes.


The rest I can agree with you on, as I've seen the 'being different' excuse given.

 

[Victor Sant]

@Victor Saint: I wasn't talking about carpets on walls. Yes, that one makes sense.

I was just giving an example. This can apply to several other aspects. 


The main point of my argument was how people make mistakes and instead of accepting that, and uses excuses to justify them.


Those are probably the people who most brings hate toward RM, because the do bad crappy games and argue with those who points that instead of just accepting that the game was bad.