Why is the RPG Maker name so hated?

[HexMozart88]

I'm talking about RM quality restrictions. I believe in MV there is less of one, but if you're making a JRPG in the older engines like me, you get limited wiggle room for graphics sizes. Platformers in RM it seems are a bit different because it is more focused on just your sprite so bigger sprites are more practical. That's all I meant.   

 

[Lucy Fox]

Story can be bad, but levels and gameplay can't. I can't stand bad gameplay, most of people can't.

That's the problem. The gameplay might be great as hell, but people will never know, cause all they see is just another RM Game with poorly used RTP graphics. :/


And it's really not that hard to make something slightly unique. (Even I managed to do it and I hadn't had any clue on how to do make graphics when I first started to use RM. xD )


So let's all make a bunch of high quality rm games and put them on steam, won't we? ;P

 

[HexMozart88]

Yeah. I will admit, I do have some RTP characters in my game, but I use them well. I only use them for characters you're not supposed to care about. The ones that die early in the game. Even so, I'm redrawing the RTP characters I do use so they match my art style. As for tilesets...well, I'm not going to get into that because I despise mapping and drawing backgrounds. I only have one parallax I've made and that's for a sea chart. Usually, if I must do backgrounds, I make them basic unless they're important to the atmosphere. Mostly they aren't because my stories are very deep and the character is usually too wrapped up in their own thoughts to pay attention. 


But, aside from tilesets, I do try to put as much effort as possible into art (and music) because that is what I do best. 

 

[padr81]

That's the problem. The gameplay might be great as hell, but people will never know, cause all they see is just another RM Game with poorly used RTP graphics. :/


And it's really not that hard to make something slightly unique. (Even I managed to do it and I hadn't had any clue on how to do make graphics when I first started to use RM. xD )


So let's all make a bunch of high quality rm games and put them on steam, won't we? ;P

1,000 times this.  People have played so many poor games with said graphics and look that even if yours is brilliant they just presume its another game of the same poor quality.  After my post last night I had a look through steam again and while there is some potentially brilliant games there its just too hard to tell if its a great game or another dud if it looks pretty much the same.  


Little details the rpg maker community notices that will make a game strong can be completely lost on someone who see's it as just another rpg maker game that looks the same.  Sad but true.

 

[cekobico]

Most newbie RM dev on Steam trying to sell their RTP-fested games completely misses the point when it comes to marketing.


Go to the nearby convenience store and try to find a pre-packaged breads, soft-drinks, canned coffees, and soda. They all have almost the same quality but none of them looks the same. It's the mooooost basic of marketing, heck.


Presentation, display, look, visual, style; it's the first thing people notices. You can get away with RTP if you're publishing free games, but don't expect people shelling out money if your game looks like the other one on the rack. Heck, even most big company gets shade thrown when they reused 3D models/assets from their previous games. 


People should stop relying on default RTP and try to recruit proper graphic artists on their team. If you can't afford one, please take the time to find tutorials on YouTube on how to use a graphic editor and learn how to make your games visually appealing and unique. 


EDIT: 


All in all, no matter how delicious your food is, if Taco Bell are serving the same food with the same quality and same presentation, why would they buy yours. They wouldn't even bother to try and see if yours taste better, and if they do, your patrons won't be that much. 

 

[SimProse]

@cekobico But yes, I think that having the assets provide by default is adding to the problem (it allows lazy people to be lazy).

That was my original thought, don't include ANY free tile assets, or very few. It would require people to be more creative in designing their games. The built-in stuff just makes it too easy to throw something together with little effort or thought behind it.

 

[saintivan]

@SimProse: I strongly disagree. Most people using RPG Maker are not trying to make a commercial game! RPG Maker markets itself as "simple enough for a child": they absolutely need the default assets.


The default assets are useful even for those who are: I started out with no idea how to do anything, and relied on the RTP package entirely until I was able to figure out what I was doing.


Inferior products abound in all commercial spaces; there is no way to eliminate or even curtail them.

 

[SimProse]

saint: I see your point. You, as someone who has a very nice RPGM game on Steam currently, I can respect your position.


Maybe have different modes, one for beginners with all the assets and slightly restricted features, and a "commercial" mode with fewer starter assets and those restricted features restored. My intent wasn't to curtail creativity, it was to improve the standing of RPG Maker on other platforms overall.

 

[Frogboy]

@SimProse: I strongly disagree. Most people using RPG Maker are not trying to make a commercial game! RPG Maker markets itself as "simple enough for a child": they absolutely need the default assets.


The default assets are useful even for those who are: I started out with no idea how to do anything, and relied on the RTP package entirely until I was able to figure out what I was doing.

I agree with your disagreement. I wouldn't be here to write this comment if RPG Maker didn't provide everything needed to make a full game. My son wouldn't likely be learning how to use the program right now either. I just want to make a game or ten. While I learn all of the ins and outs of the engine and the editor, I don't want to have to worry about spriting everything myself. I'd much rather give my game away for free and have people actually play it than try to make a few hundred bucks from it and only have a handful of people play it. If I happen to make a name for myself and can expect a reasonable return on selling a game, then I'll put in the extra work and/or join up with a small group to make something that is fit to sell.


As others have suggested, if I had to guess, I'd say that RPG Maker games get a bad reputation because the bad ones for sale are easily recognizable as RPG Maker games while the good commercial games (in most cases) aren't recognizable as such.

 

[Frozen_Phoenix]

Because of many people whose primary focus is on making money use/used the engine to make a quick 'default' game and sell it on steam. Then you have the hive mentality that evolved from this and rpg maker hatred became a norm.

 

[Sausage_Boi]

There are quite a few games on Steam made with RM that are free, and while I haven't delved as deep as possible, damn near every RM game I have seen on Steam uses RTP in some way or another. There are many that add their own custom graphics in the mix to break the monotony, but the 2 games I can think of that don't use any RTP are Off and Close Your Eyes. (Although I don't think Off is available on Steam, so it doesn't really count.)


I have also seen a lot of games that made it through Greenlight with pretty much ONLY RTP. What gives?


Also, while Close Your Eyes is free, the developer offers a "goody bag" for just a dollar or two for the soundtrack and some minigames. (I bought it for just 1 song from the soundtrack. And to show some support, but the song was the clincher )

 

[bgillisp]

There are quite a few games on Steam made with RM that are free, and while I haven't delved as deep as possible, damn near every RM game I have seen on Steam uses RTP in some way or another. There are many that add their own custom graphics in the mix to break the monotony, but the 2 games I can think of that don't use any RTP are Off and Close Your Eyes. (Although I don't think Off is available on Steam, so it doesn't really count.)


I have also seen a lot of games that made it through Greenlight with pretty much ONLY RTP. What gives?

Are you asking why aren't more games not using the RTP? If so, I'm guessing you haven't tried to buy enough tiles for a full game then. See the post by Lunarea about this, but a full custom tileset that is enough to get away from the RTP runs you $18000+. Considering the average steam game sells for under $20, and many games have less than 1000 sales lifetime right now due to how saturated the market is, basic math tells you why few games are doing custom tiles right now.


Maybe once the market gets less saturated we'll see more custom art in games, but right now going all custom graphics is a fast road to bankruptcy. All we can do is do edits like dalph suggested, as that is the only cost affordable option at the moment.

 

[Sausage_Boi]

Nah, I wasn't asking that. I see a lot of people talk about how the RTP is overused, RTP is always present and only bad games use RTP. I was just trying to make the point that damn near EVERY game on Steam has RTP carrying it.


And while it's not visual, RTP does include songs and sound effects, which are also very expensive to have custom made.

I have also seen a lot of games that made it through Greenlight with pretty much ONLY RTP. What gives?

This question was basically, if RTP games are being put through Greenlight, who is really complaining about RTP games? Because enough people seem to like it that they aren't trapped in the void.

 

[bgillisp]

Ah, got it. Still, my point is probably a valid reason as to why everyone is using the RTP (or variations of it). Much as we hate to admit it, economics do play a factor too. Wanna bet we get more cryengine games with defaults over the next year, for similar reasons?

 

[Dalph]

You can sell games in RTP style, just freakin edit the hell out of it to make your game look more unique, make\add custom assets and set a low price.


Not everyone is an artist nor can afford to spend 10.000 to hire one and have everything custom, we are very small indie game devs\hobbysts and not companies.


Some people also seems to forget that "To the Moon" uses mostly Xp RTP, and despite this it sold well over one million of copies on Steam only, there should be a reason right?


Who cares if the game looks like the RTP, I get annoyed when people don't even try to customize it nor use what they have in a good way.

 

[Luiishu535]

What do you guys think about games that only use a little bit of RTP mixed in with other graphics like MACK and various custom graphics.


Here's a screenshot from a game of mine that I've been thinking about going commercial with:

Obviously you can see that it IS an RPG Maker, but does it look at least a little bit different in some way?


EDIT: forgot the most important question; does it even matter at all? Will my game still be seen as yet another "RM shovelware"?


When it comes to graphics, the type of graphics that seem to be praised the most are custom/pretty portraits and facesets from what I've seen. I honestly believe that those two can either make or break a game's success.

 

[Marquise*]

I was playing Cubicle Knight and I was...  Uh Oh... This is @Marsigne avatar!  Un oh... this is default bandit, font, GUI, color/edit, NPC, Battler, System, Battle, Items, Mechanics...


It is like seeing all your house actors and preps in their usual characters.  Imagine you getting an action movie where for a change Rambo is the forensic doctor and the Terminator is your local police detective, Han Solo is the big sadist villain and he kills the dog walker Robocop while Mickey Mouse growls angrily at him.


Wow...  It is like we saw Agent Smith amongst some elves in Lord Of The Ring, first time it was impossible with his face not to hear someone in the theater saying "Hello Mister Anderson!"


Except there you say... "Hello Eric!"


If you can make up the RTP enough, it is a WHOLE different story.  But some just leave it by default.


(BTW, I am so far enjoying Cubicle Quest as it doesn't takes itself too seriously.)

 

[Sausage_Boi]

Ah, got it. Still, my point is probably a valid reason as to why everyone is using the RTP (or variations of it). Much as we hate to admit it, economics do play a factor too.

Oh, indeed it's a good point, too! I know all to well the economic restrictions for custom art. I also can't make any very good stuff from scratch. I do however make a LOT of edits!


A lot.


I made a thing custom for an RTP add-on...it looks awful in contrast. But if I had a whole set of my own work, it would be pretty cool.

 

[SimProse]

You can sell games in RTP style, just freakin edit the hell out of it to make your game look more unique, make\add custom assets and set a low price.


Who cares if the game looks like the RTP, I get annoyed when people don't even try to customize it nor use what they have in a good way.

Agreed. My current project uses some interesting loot/item mechanics, item variety, custom music and title screen and some custom/purchased tiles too to stand out from the crowd. I use a tiny bit of RTP, but mainly for unimportant stuff like a few minor NPC's, a few sound effects, etc. I think making the effort is the important thing in the long run to a product's success and a customer's perception.

 

[padr81]

@Luiishu535


That looks fine imho and will be grand although a few will see it as RM shovelware many will see the effort that went into it.  I think what most people are on about is the amount of games like Last Heroes.  While I've not played it and can't say its good or bad, the graphics are like your average rtp free game and will put alot of people off regardless of the standard of the game.  http://store.steampowered.com/app/370710/


The above is not me knocking Last Heroes its just the first really rtp looking game that popped in my head.