Why is the RPG Maker name so hated?

Discussion in 'Commercial Games Discussion' started by Hamilcar, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. Helladen

    Helladen Deviant Designer Veteran

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    Yes that's true. People like Game Maker games and Unity games, it is just the brand of RPG Maker being too much the same. I actually decided to make my own battle system to try to get away from the bad turn-based rap of RPG Maker. It is just to make your game feel distinct from the RM brand is what is massively important. The brand is the Final Fantasy style game with generic systems. That's what you have to avoid. A high quality version of this still will not sell. I have seen pretty high production value games on Steam do okay with the generic systems, but most of them absolutely do fail.


    As for good game designers, they already found what they are good at and can sell. Once they find an audience and fanbase, they don't change their style since they don't have to. The indies like Notch via Minecraft are examples of good game designers. He was going to make more games, but got bought out by Microsoft and left the industry. A good game designer may be unknown until their first massive hit. then they quit innovating and keep selling what they are good at making. They have a fanbase now and there's no pressure for them to keep innovating and being original. This is when production value and polish comes into importance now, you have a fanbase try to keep growing them and improving the base style you have in your game design.
     
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  2. kovak

    kovak Silverguard Veteran

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    Actually that's called brand - at least for me. You turn your design style in a brand, people will recognize who made it when they read the company's name or gameplay.

    Look at Dark Souls, besides the fact that it was made by From Software the design of some core mechanics was created by Hidetaka Miyazaki.
    He made 8 games where 5 follows almost the same rules and art style, 4 of those sold like water, 1 brand is composed from 3 of them, Dark Souls.

     
     
  3. Lucy Fox

    Lucy Fox Chosen Undead Veteran

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    Exactly this ^ for most games out there.


    I also think you need a bit of both. Originality and quality.


    Originality doesn't have to be present in every aspect of the game. A cliche story can be used as long as the gameplay has something fun to offer. An often used gameplay can be used if it has a twist or a great story behind it.


    Even the combination of elements that weren't combined before can be seen as original.


    But all of this doesn't help if no one ever buys or plays the game cause it looks so bad and unpolished that everyone stays away from it.


    I've seen games on steam that had a great art style and nice trailers, but weren't fun to play at all.


    Then again I nearly never played Undertale cause it looked so odd just by it's screenshots. And I thought: Ah, just another rpgmakerish game... But then more and more people recommended it to me and I gave it a try. And love it!


    So... originality alone can sell a game. But it has to be super original and super unique. Like Ib! It also looks not very pretty at first glance, but it's one of the best makergames ever created.


    And now think about what would happen if you make a game that is both - unique and pretty! ;D
     
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  4. Helladen

    Helladen Deviant Designer Veteran

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    @Lucy Fox yes exactly. My point was that polish comes after you got a good game idea. The demands of gamers is getting harder and harder to meet, that's why I suggested to focus on originality first then polish later. Only if you can attract a basic fanbase with your unpolished game, can you reach a good enough audience that will pay for that said game.
     
  5. JosephSeraph

    JosephSeraph White Mage Restaff

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    The thing is, anything is a good game idea if it is executed well.


    The gold lies in the execution, which is the polish and quality, not the originality.


    You can take any old tropey idea, if it is executed well it will be fresh and a new -- therefore original -- experience, despite not being an original idea at all.


    Quality execution means creating an experience that's engrossing and contagious, regardless of something as utterly relative and unobjective as "originality".


    And to bring more to this; a familiar idea executed well has an edge over 100% new ideas, the edge of familiarity. Revisiting estabilished ideas provides a base of quick connection to the potential buyer that is simply unexistant with your super-crazy-unorthodox-unrelatable-game-idea.
     
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  6. Helladen

    Helladen Deviant Designer Veteran

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    I want to add that is really true, but to captivate an audience you too sometimes have to think outside the box or use an idea that hasn't been used in a long time. A lot of indies use games that were popular 20-30 years ago with a freshness to them. They tweak the game a bit and it feels like a brand new experience to most players and even those who played it growing up due to nostalgia.
     
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  7. Frogboy

    Frogboy I'm not weak to fire Veteran

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    This is my plan too. I grew up with all of these great, classic RPGs and envisioned what they would be like in 5-10 years and while some of those things came to be, many others went different directions. It's a lot of fun trying to re-create things that I always wished for or good ideas that never got a second chance.
     
  8. RavenBlueIndigo

    RavenBlueIndigo Veteran Veteran

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    I dislike the stigma around RPG Maker because it is a more powerful engine than often given credit for, and, in competent hands, it can create something great. There have been a few examples of it's potential created before, unfortunately there are a lot of rather mediocre ones and those are the ones that give it a bad name. What really irons my greasemonkey though is when people treat it like a toy or something, like "Oh, this was made with RPG Maker? LOL! Use a real engine!"
     
  9. taarna23

    taarna23 Marshmallow Princess Global Mod

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    @RavenBlueIndigo That's not even the worst - there's plenty that feel if you used an engine to develop a game, you're not a real game dev.
     
  10. RavenBlueIndigo

    RavenBlueIndigo Veteran Veteran

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    . . . Isn't that typically how games are done? : x.
     
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  11. Isaac The Red

    Isaac The Red RedMage Veteran

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    I'm not going to read through 21 pages of comments to see if anyone has stated this before but I'll be honest. The huge stigma behind RPGMaker games right now I feel is because so many of them are flooding out right now from so many no name developers, where the title looks nice and there are promises of great things and then when a gamer sits down to play it it feels like "Babby's first game project." Something I've recently noticed now is theres a growing thing on youtube "Bad RPG Maker Game" Playthroughs, People record and broadcast their playthroughs and reactions to rpgmaker games. It's scary really. 
     
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  12. Canini

    Canini Veteran Veteran

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    This has also probably been mentioned before, but part of the stigma may stem from the fact that the core assets and battle engine that comes with it it is a bit bland. Therefore if you make an RPG with those (which you probably will if you are a beginner) it will turn out just like any other RPG. As I see it, the strength of RPGmaker is the ease of prototyping but as a foundation it needs a lot of independent build-on to truly shine.


    I mean that in the best possible way. 
     
  13. taarna23

    taarna23 Marshmallow Princess Global Mod

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    @Canini I have to disagree... they aren't bland; they're everywhere. Maybe that contributes to their perceived blandness, but I wouldn't call the assets themselves bland.
     
  14. Canini

    Canini Veteran Veteran

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    @taarna23 Yeah, I think my comment did not come across the way I meant it. English is after all not my first language.


    What I meant was something along the lines of "so common the player perceives themselves always knowing what to expect"


    There is no denying that the assets are very well done and very beautiful.
     
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  15. HexMozart88

    HexMozart88 The Master of Random Garbage Veteran

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    They are well done except for the generator and the battle system. I speak for Ace alone because I don't have MV so I can't talk. The tilesets and most of the faces and songs are nice, but when I saw the battle system for the first time, I had to change it. It was so boring. Aside from all of that though, I swear, if I have to see Eric in one more game...  :headshake: D:<  
     
  16. RHachicho

    RHachicho Veteran Veteran

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    It's just a fact of life .. the easier an engine is too use the more bad games will be made on and the more elitist idiots will condemn it. There's no use debating the finer points because there really aren't any. It's got nothing to do with the rtp or even the engine itself. ANYTHING easy to use like this will get rubbish made with it. Not because the engine is rubbish but because it's ease of use means rubbish will exist on it. It's really as simple as that. The stigma is also unavoidable .. because people are dumb. And also because there's a certain breed of gamer who happens to think this stuff is easy. Hell I'm new at this and i'm probably not producing half the quality a lot of people do in rpgmaker. I'm proud of what I make but I have a realistic perspective of my own talent. And even at that low level it's still a crap tonne of work.


    There are always going to be people who think that the only thing that has value existing is the best stuff that ever gets made. If anything I think the lax distribution standards of platforms like steam are more detrimental to the perceived strength of the engine than any amount of "bad games" because this open door policy allows these bad games to exist in the same place as good ones. And there are way more of them so ... well ... the conclusion an ignorant bystander would come to is obvious.
     
  17. kovak

    kovak Silverguard Veteran

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    Steam used to filter the games that got greenlit and 5 years ago they simply decided that they'd get rid of Greenlight and spread their legs.


    Funny thing is that Greenlight still exists and any sheep gets approved there, they don't even filter anymore, they just check to see if there's porn sheep related stuff and them let it go as far as i know.
     
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  18. saintivan

    saintivan Veteran Veteran

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    @kovak: Obviously Steam still has Greenlight. It's much easier to get a game Greenlit than it was years ago, so sure, more bad games get through...but it also gives the rest of us a better chance. Some games that would have never made it will become profitable, while others will wallow in their own filth. Nobody is forced to buy a bad game, and they can always get a refund. There are no losers in this arrangement, except the subjective perception of those who sneer at "inferior" games being on the Steam platform. The arrangement obviously benefits Steam; even "bad" games have some market, and multiply that by 1,000 or 10,000 Steam gets profit with zero outlay.
     
  19. RHachicho

    RHachicho Veteran Veteran

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    I disagree that steams laxity is good for sales. As frankly any trawl through jim sterlings channel will show you just HOW lax it is. While i do think jim's a bit of a bottom feeder the fact is he keeps finding these dayum games. Steam will accept any old tot and that's nothing but bad for something like rpgmaker. How u gonna convince people that your rpgmaker game is the good one? how u gonna convince them after 3 bad games in a row that it's even worth looking? I agree that at the start steam green-light was a bit too strict and some good games had trouble getting on it. But now it's just silly lax. I could literally write a game in an afternoon where fred the hero goes in a cave and kills the rtp dragon and it would probably get green-lit I'm not even joking.
     
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  20. kovak

    kovak Silverguard Veteran

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    @saintivan if you knew how strict greenlit was before it happened you'd notice that the number of games was lower than 100 a year and its quality was as close as nintendo's without a even a single doubt.

    Beeing greenlit was a proof of quality.

    EDIT: i'm not a nintendo fan but w.e
     
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