Why is the RPG Maker name so hated?

Discussion in 'Commercial Games Discussion' started by Hamilcar, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. saintivan

    saintivan Veteran Veteran

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    @Awesome cool: what platform do you buy your games on? I've found some indie titles on Steam I've enjoyed such as The Cat Lady. With more choices, a larger selection caters to more consumers. That could mean taking longer to find games you like...but could also result in finding games you never would have heard of otherwise.
     
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  2. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    @saintivan - I buy on steam (although gog is getting more attention from me now), but look for games elsewhere.


    It is way to hard for me to find a game I am interested through steam now.
     
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  3. UNphiltered_khaos

    UNphiltered_khaos Game Dev. Artist. Veteran

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    So, I went and looked on Steam.


    Of the 226 games tagged "RPG Maker" 136 of them are overall rated Thumbs Up. The next largest group is Mixed, and the smallest by far is Negative.


    I think the stigma is mostly the few stinkers that everybody remembers all too well, because humans tend to hyper-exaggerate things we don't like.
     
  4. Pierman Walter

    Pierman Walter Chunk Monster Veteran

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    I looked on Steam, too. 


    For about half of the well-liked games, the most helpful review is negative, pointing out all the flaws in the game. A lot of the the positive reviews are full of pseudo-compliments, such as, "A great first effort!", and, "The grammar is bad, there are a lot of inexplicable invisible walls, the battles are impossible, but I still like the game.", and, " Everything is barely tolerable. Get it on sale." Many games have only eight reviews or so. They are probably not the best metric to base game quality off of. People with experience or awareness of the game making process are generally a lot nicer to RPG Maker games and let them get away with some flaws, but the overall good ratings might be the reason why these games have such a bad reputation. For example, if someone who doesn't normally play turn-based RPGS and low-budget indie games decides to get one, they look at all the reviews and pick one that a lot of people seem to like. They then have a terrible experience playing it, compared to the better games they are used to. This leads to their conclusion,"Good lord, if this is what is considered a GOOD game, then I don't want to know what is considered bad." 
     
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  5. Caitlin

    Caitlin \(=^o^=)/ Kitten shall rule the world!!! Veteran

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    I replied to this topic, before, but I've had some time to think about the subject.  I think that many people think that using RPG Maker is lazy way of making a game, that it's only cut and paste way of making games for people who can't program or use a REAL game engine like Unity or Unreal Engine. (Worse are the people who create their own engines, because they're like they can't create their own engines, so they're lazy.)  Then, they see beginners or lazy people who use only badly done RTP and it justifies their opinion of the engine.  They don't see the awesome games, some of which are crafted in different art styles like Wanda and other games uses RTP edits (almost to the point it's like different graphics), even some games that mix and match to give an original feel to their game.  Yeah, there are badly done games, in unreal and unity engines, but no one judges all of those engines based on bad games from those engines.


    The only thing you can do is to make great games and spread that RPG Maker can be used to make great games, focusing on different game play styles and art styles.  It isn't as easy to make a game in RPG Maker and those who are truly lazy (because they want a quick buck) will be caught for the type of people they are. But I can understand when you see all those badly done maps and you don't understand that those aren't the best maps out there. All the people of 'Steam' has to go on are the games that they see on the workshop or the maps through greenlight....(o_o') Yeah, so I do understand, but at the same time, I disagree with them.  It's all about how we show them that they are wrong, not with words, but with action.


    But no matter how great or popular a game is, not everyone is going to like it.  Some people will hate your game, because they don't like the graphics, they hate the type of game it is, they hate the characters or they hate the story, but worse case, is that they didn't even give it a chance, because of the engine.  When you make your screenshots, you need it to show off your strengths of your game, not your weaknesses. I swear there are people who won't play newer 2D games, only 3D, while at the same time playing these old 2D games.  


    I don't get the point behind greenlighting a game, but at the same point I do see the point of some process to weed out bad games that won't sell.
     
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  6. Plueschkatze

    Plueschkatze Veteran Veteran

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    The main problem might be the same with every affordable and easy to use engine or programm... a LOT of unexperienced people will use it.


    This goes for RPG Maker as well as for gimp or blender or even unity engine and a whole bunch of other softwares.


    And then there are 20-30 bad to mediacore games per 1 good one most people will only see the bad ones.


    Beside that... Even with new awesome graphic games on the newest engines and konsoles I hate seeing games that look all the same...


    That goes like this: "whooo... yeaahh... another superrealistic looking shooter game... whoooo... *slow clap* ... don't need, don't want" 


    Like most other people I like seeing games that feel new and fresh at least in SOME way. Graphics, storytelling, the way it presents it characters or story.
     
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  7. kovak

    kovak Silverguard Veteran

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    Idk if i've pointed this out in the thread before, i probably didn't cu idk how to show my ideas without looking a dumb prick.

    Ok, so lets look at what a game really is:

    • If you remove the graphics all you have are hit boxes
    • The game engine is just a platform where your game runs, where it was built, i can be digital or physical (like card games, look at those cards as an engine)
    • Its design are the rules that tells you how the game gonna be, what it trully is

    This entire time all you were doing till now is to stare at rules and hit boxes and obeying it, you felt rewarded by following those rules.


    That's what games are, nothing more, nothing less.


    * Joke Moment *WHERE'S YOUR ANARCHY NOW?* Joke Moment *
     
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  8. Rukiri

    Rukiri I like to make Action-RPGs Veteran

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    I've been around the RM community since RM95/2000 and the few reasons why RM is hated or just considered a baby toy is because.


    - It's reputation stems from a time where it was all point and click, no actual programming was possible.


    - It's still heavily a point and click engine... 


    - It's slow... Thankfully RPGs don't need to be fast unless it's absolutely required...  *major concern for me at this time


    I'd say this was true up until MV, I haven't had the time to see if MV is even capable of a high paced ABS (100FPS+) as I'm still seeing FPS dips currently even with a basic game.


    I can fix it thankfully by editing the pixi.js file but I shouldn't have to... 


    What I like about MV is that you can bring in JS libraries to do nifty things or heck unofficially update Pixi.js!  


    For the first time without hacking you can use shaders which is neat, I mainly just write a crt scanline shader, element shader (fire, water, etc), and call it a day.


    Let's be real, for most RPG aspects RM can suffice for your 2D needs and it's really going to matter heavily on the battle system and speed and if RMMV can not do it there are a few choices that I'd recommend "PM me" but won't post here as it is a RM community after all.  


    But with how open RMMV is there will be a plugin or library to address it from the community.
     
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  9. Marquise*

    Marquise* Veteran Veteran

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    I saw most type of RPG folks like on Nintendo still having that mechanic we like.  :p  visual more or less elaborated but even getting walls in 3D, or trying FPS, not a major change!


    Well best to mention that by now, nothing we might do seriously on any RPGMaker or any other engine will make us look as bad as Digital Homicide fallen from A No Man Sky!
     
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  10. Sakuri

    Sakuri Today is Today Veteran

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    A reason it's hated is because in the early days of the internet and inexperienced people could throw their idea at the wall and it would stick. Unfotunately now all they did was taint the image of each rpg maker and make it harder from new devs to see if they can make something with it. When i was really inexperienced i thought i could make my idea come to life, it failed. The problem is that people won't accept help on how to make their game better and turn out a lackluster product and taint the Rpgmaker name.
     
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  11. taarna23

    taarna23 Marshmallow Princess Global Mod

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    @Marquise* Yup! It's true - the engine doesn't matter. A game with no effort put in is still going to suck. And there's still always going to be the elitist jerks that think you need to code from scratch to make anything worthwhile. Seriously, if they think the big boys don't use premade anything in their game creation, I'd hate to see them get hired on at a game studio and watch their whole world implode.
     
  12. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    @Taarachnia - The engine totally does matter.


    Attention and sales wise, image matters so much more than quality in determining a successful game. Like why nobody made games for the Wii, it had double the amount of users of the PS3 and Xbox 360 at one point, but the image of the system prevented any games from making it on the platform (thus nobody made any).


    In terms of successful games: Image then marketing then presentation (graphics, sound, etc) then value proposition and then finally quality.  Sure there are exceptions, but the quality will have to greatly exceed expectations (and be really refreshing) to make a big impact (also why so, so many good games fail while Assasin Creed still sells like hotcakes even if the game is functionally broken and a clone of a past game).


    ...and nobody makes a commercial game without wishing it made money, so yes it matters.
     
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  13. taarna23

    taarna23 Marshmallow Princess Global Mod

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    @AwesomeCool No, it really doesn't matter. MAYBE if we were discussing dev for consoles. MAYBE if our engine of choice was limiting what we could do, as your example. Maybe then it would make a difference. The majority of people here are not here hoping to make the next hot game for Nintendo. Heck, from what I've seen, the majority of MV users don't even want to work on a mobile platform.


    I could make a garbage RPG using RPG Maker. I could also make one with Unity, or Stencyl, or Game Maker, or... need I go on? A crap game is a crap game. Heck, go make a 2D RPG with another one of the softwares out there, and you'll probably still find yourself in the "crap RPG Maker game" bucket, simply because it's a 2D RPG.


    We won't get anywhere without trying to get our foot in the door. If engine matters as much as you say, I seriously question why you are here.
     
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  14. Liak

    Liak Veteran Veteran

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    Your last point is almost a pretty good one. If we would make 2D RPGs in a different engine, they would still be very similar to RPG Maker and thus probably face similar reactions ... right? 


    Well, in my opinion, the graphics matter a lot, and a big problem for RPG Maker is the lack of graphical alternatives. The RTP is easily recognizable (because they basically didn't change anything for 3 installments now - VX, VX Ace and MV look similar, and I have no idea why they didn't try to change things up) and there's a severe lack of true alternatives. The packs that offered different graphical styles that were released were too limited to really make a full game with. All we can do, in my opinion, is hope there's some nice stuff coming along from RPG Maker Web for MV.


    I'd in fact spend 100 dollars or so on an alternate characters-and-tilesets RTP (maybe animations, too), I mean: Take the RTP and replace all the things with new versions.
     
  15. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    @Taarachnia - I am here for I want to be here, that is it.  RPG Maker doesn't have to be used to make commercial games and most people do not use it for commercial games.  Heck, can even be used to just be played around with and never actually make game for it (or just exclusively make resources to share for free with people even for fun)


    Crap games will be crap no matter what, there is no lower limit (unless you add fan-service, those games always sell at least quite a bit according to steam spy).  There is an upper limit however.


    You cannot make a game that will get as much attention as Skyrim with just pure good gameplay.  


    Just by mentioning RPG Maker was used in making a game, you will get people writing it off.  


    The RTP graphics style will push away a much, much bigger pool of customers yet.  


    A games value per dollar is also more important than quality in the eyes of gamers at the moment.


    And nobody will know of your game without a good marketing push.


    Games that are high quality fail all the time, generally called niche games (and they rarely succeed profit wise, despite the fanbases intentions).  Games like Valkyrie Chronicles utterly failing at release now succeeding with a rerelease (with the heavily increased exposure and marketing) is proof of how little quality matters alone.


    Quality does matter, but so does graphics, themes, marketing, image, etc and just as much.


    ...and RPG Maker has a poor image at the moment that hurts any game made on the enginre, like it or not.
     
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  16. taarna23

    taarna23 Marshmallow Princess Global Mod

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    Well, I didn't know this was entirely about commercial games. I thought, based on the thread title, that this was about why RPG Maker was so hated.


    Silly me, I see I can't read.
     
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  17. kovak

    kovak Silverguard Veteran

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    I still disagree about the "engine matter", most of people won't even know which engine you've used to make the game unless you tell.


    The RTP usage and artstyle is something that points out if it's RM or not.
     
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  18. Pierman Walter

    Pierman Walter Chunk Monster Veteran

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    The engine does matter. A lot of people will simply write off a game simply because it was made in RPG Maker. Since we are a fairly insular community, if we spend most of our internet time here, we get an incredibly skewed idea of what people actually think. We only associate with people who are positive with the engine, and we see examples of great work that few people see, simply because of the nature of this forum. Someone who thinks RPG Maker is for idiot garbage children will obviously not associate with this website. However, that seems to be a popular idea among the rest of the internet. See here:


    https://rpgmakerbullshit.wordpress.com


    http://itjustbugsme.com/forums/discussion/2644/people-who-think-rpgmaker-games-make-legit-games


    http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/has-rpg-maker-ever-been-used-to-create-anything-good-ever.70600/


    Some arguments above are justified, some are not, but that has no effect on what people perceive. If they think it is bad, then, to them, it is bad.


    I shall explain this using a ridiculous metaphor. Pretend that video games are pizza parlors instead. A game running on a custom engine would be a pizza parlor that bakes its pizzas in a granite wood burning oven, and delivers using a fleet of temperature-controlled vans. That sounds very nice. A game running on a complex premade engine is a pizza parlor that uses commercial electric ovens and delivers on motorcycles. That's not very fancy, but its alright. A RPG Maker game is a pizza parlor that bakes pizzas in a dumpster fire and delivers on unicycles. That sounds atrocious. These terms are not absolutely indicative of quality. For example, you can still set a solid lump of processed cheese on fire in a wood burning oven and try to sell that as food, and you can clean a dumpster very well and fill it with charcoal and cook white truffle pizzas on it for free. However, we must bear in mind that most dumpster-fire pizzas are not very good and to expect the owner of a dumpster-fire to care about pizza quality as much as someone with a granite kiln may result in viruses. 
     
  19. kovak

    kovak Silverguard Veteran

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    So what? Every dev knows it even if the customers think they doesn't.


    Even stupid EA know that people wants them to stop making BS projects and shut down projects that are good. They had the most well designed MOBA i've ever played and they shut it down cuz they didn't wanted to promote it properly. People complained and nothing happened.


    I use RM cuz i want and cuz i don't wanna waste my time looking for retarded programmers who will screw me up or use dumb excuses cuz we are devin stuff for free to then get some income after sales...this is far more common than you think and it happened before to me twice.


    Devs know...they aways know.
     
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  20. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    Kovak summed it up best. If you go by what people want per what they post on the internet, you'll never satisfy them. From what I've seen on steam, if your game isn't 2560 x 1980 resolution, runs at 60 FPS, uses the 4K monitor, and is the second coming of games, then it's bad. Trying to satisfy that crowd is a losing battle.


    Also, I've never liked the its the engine argument. If that were the case, why aren't people ripping the gamemaker clones? Or the unity clones? Or the construct clones? I've seen a few games where it is obvious they all used the same maps (construct), and there must be a build a match 3 engine out there somewhere due to all the match 3 games I've seen. And why aren't they ripping renipy too, with all the visual novels out there using it? 


    If it really was all about using the same engine that others did, EVERY game would be getting negative reviews these days except for the AAA games that spent 10 million to write their own engine. Almost everything else uses 1 of 4 engines (RPGMaker, Unity, Gamemaker, or Renipy).
     

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