Why is the RPG Maker name so hated?

[mlogan]

EDIT 2: Also lul "established member" when I really haven't done anything at all.

EDIT 3: Also the reason I'm here, Logan, is more or less to stalk the Let's Play forum. I enjoy watching other people's creations being showcased by another person rather than working on my own creations. Kind of scary, really.

Well, you aren't a member who joined three days ago and has two posts - both are which bash the forums or something. (In other words, you are obviously not a newly joined troll.)

And I think that's a fair reason to be here. I have no problem with that. Nevertheless, given what these boards are set up for - help and support for users of RPGM - it is a bit surprising to find people who at least *seem* (whether they meant to or not) to hate the program so much.

Also sorry, but custom graphics doesn't label your damn game automatically as "good" (it can help a lot yes, but since when appealing means necessarily good or interesting?), it's all a matter of execution.

As Kumori already said, there are really a lot of terrible RTP games around, that's probably why the materials aren't appreciated enough.

Yep this - shiny pictures don't make a game actually good.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

I still replay a lot of old games. Heck, I mostly replay old games. I like new ones. I play them. But my point is, super pumped up graphics engines aren't what is doing it for me. If I'm not having fun I don't care how cool it looks. Sometimes the games are so shiny that I feel like I'm about to get vertigo.

 

[Sharm]

I think it's funny that so many people are pointing out older games as examples of "graphics don't have to be good". Good does not equal high fidelity or resolution. I think that's a problem that many AAA games run into, they concentrate so hard on flashy or realistic graphics and then it all gets put together on screen and has no balance and everything looks the same shade of brown or is some sort of flashy rainbow where you can't find the main character. It's ugly. It's not good art when it's like that, it's missing so many key elements of what should be considered when making art. I happen to think old school graphics have more artistry to them whether on purpose or because of the restrictions forced upon them by the medium. Yeah, you don't need good graphics to make a good game, but I've passed up many a game simply because of the poor graphics. When making a game, especially a commercial one, you should consider the whole package.


I was sick of the RTP before I came here. I'm still a little surprised that there aren't more full blown tileset artists here. I used to think that was the entire point of RPG Maker, to make all the art from scratch and pair up with other talents that wanted to do the same sort of thing. I guess I'm a rare breed. Oh, but anyway, that wasn't my point. The point was, even though I'm sick of it, the RTP is good art. Around here no one is being a jerk or jealous or whatever about it, but there's still a divide between the RTP supporters who love it, prefer flexible over original, think that pretty is more important than new; and the people who are done with the RTP who think that new is more important than pretty, that limitations are fine if the art is worth working around, who are sick of the RTP. Of course then there's the group who are like "whatever works and I can't afford anything" but that doesn't seem like an actual choice to me, just a rail against the world sort of statement. I don't think much of this mentality, it seems like more of an excuse to not try and be professional while expecting the same sort of respect. It's okay to make choices based on where you're at, but make choices and don't expect other people to make up the difference for your deficiencies just because you want to be professional.


I'm rambling. Oh well, maybe it'll be interesting.

 

[The Forgotten]

Personally, unedited RTP is good for making a couple game demos while you refine your game-making skills. I wouldn't recommend it for a full release game simply because a "full game" with complete RTP will probably get slammed (even here!) The RTP is so easy to edit even with minimal artistic background that is (in my opinion) is honestly lazy to try to commercialize a game with full unedited RTP. Then again, I'd rather see full unedited RTP than a mish-mash of XP, Mack, and VX tilesets.

My process was this:

1.) Made a couple demos to refine skills, troubleshoot compatibility of scripts, and get feedback on the story.

2.) Make edits (or buy resources) on a as needed basis. Each time I hit a map that needs something special, I make or buy it at that point.

3.) Release demo with customized resources, gauge reaction.

4.) Make alterations based on feedback (positive, and negative!)

5.) Re-release demo with alterations, gauge feedback.

6.) Finishing touches based on personal preference and feedback.

7.) ???

8.) Profit!

 

[Celianna]

Huh, that's interesting. Because I find the RTP to be dull and lacking in color compared to tiles like Lunarea's and Celianna's. It's one of the things I love about their tiles - they are so bright and pretty.

I know right, the RTP is actually quite desaturated (XP even more), whereas my work is very saturated (yay colours!).


But I get what he means, even if he isn't actually explaining himself correctly. He wants more realistic texture, which means more gritty-ness and a million different colours. The RTP doesn't do much with texture, it's all pretty smooth, and it sticks to a small palette of colour (the green grass is ... green. Realistic grass would have shades of other colours).


I think the issue that people have with the RTP is that;

• It's overused and everywhere. People really start to hate something they see all the time (think of popular songs that people hate), and they get sick of it. Notice how when someone doesn't use default RTP graphics, the game almost never gets any complaints whatsoever about the graphics.
• Due to it being the default, it means anyone can create maps with it. And just like in terms of fanfiction; if anyone can do it, that means most of it looks really badly put together. You only need to click and drag to create a map, and that requires no talent at all, so there's going to be a lot of bad maps. Much like being an artist, composer or programmer, mapping is a skill that needs to be fine tuned, so that means good maps are scarce.

Because people see the RTP everywhere, and mostly see badly created maps, they will think; RPG Maker sucks.
Honestly it's mostly just the inexperience of the users that created this image. Why rail on something that was meant to make things easier for people who didn't really know how to create something? It's the same kind of hate MS Paint gets (well, aside from very good criticism of not supporting alpha channels), because people make terrible things with it due to it being so easy ... but then totally ignore that experienced artist can create something beautiful.


It actually reminds me of something Sharm said a week or so ago haha. I created a pretty test map with her new tileset (coming out soon!), and she had no idea her tiles were capable of such a thing. And I'm sure that someone else can create a really terrible map with it. But the tileset isn't the issue here (it's very pretty); it's a tool like any other, which means the end result relies solely on the user.

I was sick of the RTP before I came here. I'm still a little surprised that there aren't more full blown tileset artists here. I used to think that was the entire point of RPG Maker, to make all the art from scratch and pair up with other talents that wanted to do the same sort of thing. I guess I'm a rare breed.

Hah, I remember joining the community back in 2009. I saw people having a few edits here and there, but didn't see a single person creating tiles for VX (I'm pretty sure XP has a lot more content though), so I figured, why not, I like drawing anyway. So I started drawing my own tiles. Shortly thereafter another person joined and ... well, it hasn't really grown much since then! Not for VX/Ace art anyways. I guess maybe because people are used to pixel art for 2D games, so they avoid it?

 

[Alexander Amnell]

   I think a lot of the basis for the hatred (I won't touch the irrational troll hatred, as that is the same everywhere) comes simply from human arrogance paired with the ease of access that rpgmaker provides. People are born arrogant and knowing your limitations only comes through experience and hard work; a lot of people have a hard time admitting when something is to much for them, or else are just determined to succeed even if they don't have the experience or time to put into it to make it as good as it needs to be. Thus we get a bunch of amateur rpg games released as commercial titles that in all honesty should have ended up an abandonware project never to be seen by anyone except the fresh faced, starry eyed amateur that started it determined to make his/her dream game and make it big.

   It isn't the engine that fails in these cases, it's the developers. In this instance I can feel for the people that say that the low pricetag associated with the software is a detriment, because it allows people with such little experience to jump in and produce complete crap that they try to sell in a stubborn refusal to admit that they don't at the time have the ability to be successful at such an endeavor. On the other hand I am grateful that it is as cheap as it is and that such an accessible product exists because there is another demographic of people that use it that isn't thought about as much in such discussions. Inbetween the professional developers that believe that such products should all come with a 500+ pricetag and the arrogant out for a quick buck amateurs that said professionals wish to cut out of the mix with such a pricetag are the hobbyists, the people who lack the skills, time and money to even consider making a commercial venture but for whatever reasons are still drawn to the game making process. I love rpgmaker because it is such a product, that has gotten me into designing my own game and allowing me to work on that dream I've had since childhood without having to go all in and commit to such a venture as a defining part of my life at the time. I've made a lot of crap and have a slower learning curve than a lot of people due to time constraints and other commitments in my life but because of how accessible this program is I haven't had to throw away my desire to work towards creating a game and can continue to work towards the day that I have something tangible to show for it.

   Not everything is about making money and I'm of the opinion that before someone even considers a commercial venture they should have at least one freeware title under their belt, because nothing lets you know where you stand faster than the criticism of others. Pair that with the fact that there tend to be less flame trolls on the pages of non-commercial completely for free games than there are when you try to sell something and I consider it almost common sense. When I finally come to a point that I feel I can release my work for others to play it will have been only because of this community that it happened, because of that no matter how far I come with said game it will be completely free as a testament to all the support and aid others have given me over the lifespan of said games development. If I find myself in a position to pursue creating a commercial game with the experiences I've gleaned afterwards perhaps that will happen, as it has happened to others, but for now I am satisfied with being a simple hobbyist. I think if other people were willing to admit that they aren't 'yet' developers and are merely hobbyists and be satisfied with that knowledge then a lot of the bad games (and thus the stigma) would disappear. At the end of the day, people are the problem, a program is a program and can only accomplish as much as the one using it has the knowledge to use it for.

 

[Ashton]

I still replay a lot of old games. Heck, I mostly replay old games. I like new ones. I play them. But my point is, super pumped up graphics engines aren't what is doing it for me. If I'm not having fun I don't care how cool it looks. Sometimes the games are so shiny that I feel like I'm about to get vertigo.

This. So much this. I wont lie, I love Skyrim and BIOSHOCK, but my favorite games of all time are EARTHBOUND (aka Mother2) and ChronoTrigger - both games from the SNES era which could easily be made with an engine like RPG Maker.

 

[C-C-C-Cashmere (old)]

The RPG Maker name is so hated because there is very little innovation within the games made, and they tend to be a large amount of amateur games made. I'm not saying that there are no good games made in RPG Maker; some of my favourite games of all time are made in RPG Maker. But there is quite a large amount of hobbyist developers (and I am afraid I am in this category too) that simply make games that aren't that good or even push many boundaries.


Also some limitations of RPG Maker are the lag, the fact that most games use the same boring TBS-based gameplay, the ill-thought-out stories and punctuation/grammar mistakes that pervade the games, and the overbranding of RPG Maker. I'm just being honest, here.


But RPG Maker is improving. More and more people are making beautiful games, and the gamescape for the engine is raising the bar to higher heights. There have been more great games made in the past couple of years, I believe, than ever before. It's because people are grabbing hold of the engine, but trying to push past its limits and create truly innovative games.


I hope that the future for the RPG Maker sphere includes far more games that aren't just straight JRPGs with no innovation, but look to hybridizing certain concepts and create experiences that are like no other. My goal is to help create and foster an atmosphere of creativity and self-expression that reaches beyond what most people realize they are capable of. It's a lofty dream, and I have others, but it's not impossible.

 

[Vinedrius]

RPG Maker does shout "I am a JRPG engine" even though games in different genres can be made with it. I don't think anyone in their right mind can deny that fact. Also, it is obviously suited for the hobbyist before any full fledged game developer. It is a bit unrealistic to expect many innovative games to be made with it.

To be innovative, one needs much more than an idea. An idea alone doesn't magically turn into a fascinating game. Even if some coder writes an amazingly innovative battle system, it would require understanding and editing of Ruby code to use it well which in itself is a very daunting task for the average hobbyist (like me). If it is easy to modify, then it is not a complex system which means it is probably nothing special in terms of gameplay and you will be seeing it everywhere and before long, we are back to the prejudice of "same crap in all RPG maker games". If it is hard enough to stay rare, good for those who can use it, may force be with you, all hail to the king etc. etc. But don't mark those people as lazy ass for not being able to make people go "OMG!"

In case you don't need systems but art to make your game outshine the so called "RTP crap" with its innovative art style or whatever, then you would need custom art which means either you have to be a talented and experienced artist or hire one which isn't feasible at all for a hobbyist.

There is also time needed to be dedicated for development which is the biggest drawback for the amateur who can only work on their project in their small free time back home from work which gets even slimmer if they have a family to take care of.

I think the biggest problem is, those s* talkers don't care at all about the dreams of the users. Most people don't start using the maker to be praised by thousands of people with their oh so freaking amazing game. Also, I will never understand those people who claim X platform is only meant for the most talented and professional developers. "Stay away you filthy amateur!"... That is bulls* There are thousands of sport teams around the world. Does it make the best of them look any less valuable? Should the weak teams not even have the right to compete? They all look similar too, just like the games with RTP style graphics. They all wear the same type of uniforms in their own category, they all use the same type of ball, racket or whatever and they are still doing their job even if they suck compared to those at the top so why should the small developer stay away from X platform unless they don't meet the minimum requirements set by the platform and not some elitist pricks...

I have all these words to say about the matter and I haven't even started on a game yet. Imagine how offended and discouraged those who are working on their humble projects get when a bunch of haters call their work **** and unworthy of even a glance. Empathy is too hard I guess... /*****ing mode off

 

[C-C-C-Cashmere (old)]

I apologize if I came off as condescending. I merely believe that a lot of people, who have been using the engine for a while, are able to up their game but haven't been in the past.

However, with the introduction of this $10,000 prize, all of a sudden a ton of really innovative and crazy awesome games are coming out and all I can say is, "Did you have to wait for the $10k for it to matter?" But I do admit money is a good motivator.

I'm sorry if I put down a ton of hobbyist designers who just do it for the love of making a game they want to make. That's fine. Do whatever you like. But the question was, "Why is the RPG Maker name so hated?" and that's probably why. I'm just being a bit real here. I don't hate the RPG Maker engine, or the people that use it, but I'm stating a reason why people might be unfulfilled with the current brand of RPG Maker games that are coming out.

 

[amerk]

One thing I'd say: Even if I don't praise every good RPG Maker game, hopefully the developers can be content with the fact that I enjoy spending a weekend afternoon or some evenings once the kids are in bed to run around in their worlds.

I imagine there are a lot of other hobbyist players such as myself, and knowing this might at least encourage developers to keep making their fun RM games.

I admit, there a lot of RM games (free ones, at that) where I can't play more than a few minutes. Most of the time it's to do with how bad the game is, but there's also a lot of games I realize is not my taste (harvest moon style games, for example). It's usually when I start paying for these games that I become much more critical, but even then I don't let the RTP bother me so much as how it's used and the creativity behind the game. Games like Legionwood and Legionwood 2, for instance, rely heavily on the RTP, but it's designed well enough that I don't care.

 

[C-C-C-Cashmere (old)]

Amerk that actually sounds really cute the way you put that. Do your kids play RPG maker games too or are they too young?

Yeah, I mean it's OK that there's a lot of average RM games out there because there's a lot of average games in general, just all-round. But I'm talking about people who have the ability to make great innovative RM games but don't because they try to fit into the preconceived idea that RPG Maker games should have characters and a story and graphics that look like *this* and lighting systems and scripts and everything that they think makes a good game. But I think it's better if we inspire creativity to look outside the box and really examine what they previously thought and see if they can make something original. We have too many FF clones and Suikoden clones but now we need some truly innovative games if we want to lift people's opinion of what RPG Maker games are.

That's if we really care what they think about us... otherwise you can just raise a finger and keep making hobbyist games. That's also an acceptable solution. Me though, I'm too proud. I want to lift people's expectations and provide new experiences. I hope there's tons of people that think the same too so that one of us will make our way through the cracks. I bet there are.

 

[amerk]

No, my daughter is 4 and my son is 1. But Kaleigh has at least started coming around some games, and plays her little puzzle games on the leap pad, and she's enjoyed watching me playing bits and pieces of Sweet Lily Dreams. She loves to be read to, though, so once she starts reading herself, I imagine she'll start getting into some basic rpg's.

Pointing people out to the well designed hobby games is a good starting point. Even better if those games are not encrypted so people can learn from them. We can't expect everybody will do as great as Star Stealing Prince, but even if they can do half as good it's a win.

The bundles was a great way to do this, and bundling the free games more often may help. Another idea could be for the staff to pick two well designed games each month (one from demo's and one that is completed) and pin it as the Demo of the Month and Game of the Month respectively. Criteria may include good designed maps, innovative game mechanics, well coded events, good use of resources (whether RTP or custom).

 

[crimcrim]

Common folk (eg: "gamers") judge most things on visuals alone. I don't really like this practice but I do agree with it to some extent; game developers have to grab a player as soon as possible, and this is most easily accomplished through visuals. RTP is so overused and stagnant that it immediately fails this step. Not only is the RTP overused but it's also just...bad. Maybe I've seen it once too many times, maybe the few years I've spent studying art just nags at the obviously flaws of it. Regardless of the reason, RTP is bad.

Now there are two sides to the RPG Maker users. The hobbyists who use it as a tool of fun (bless you guys, you are one of the few people who actually enjoy the software for what it should be) and the developers who want to make a profitable success. RPG Maker isn't tailored for the latter. There are so many bugs and kinks that need to be worked around just to make it work. So many bad decisions made by the development team that makes me question their sanity at some points. Forced Anti-Aliasing for text, complete lack of core customization. tile-based movement. They stuck to such a specific formula that is so difficult to change. Not to mention the adherence to Ruby, which can only run on one CPU core. As a whole the program is so limited and constrained.

For the people who think that it's okay to use RPG Maker because you don't have the money to drop on other engines that's perfectly fine. Remember this one piece of advice though: if you don't want to spend money on your own game, other people will be hard pressed to do so as well.

 

[Celianna]

Scratching my head here; I understand being sick of the RTP, but saying it's bad? The art is pretty good, and knowing that they had to work with 32x32 restrictions, resulting in weirdly placed shadows on some tiles, they did pretty well.

 

[Galenmereth]

[...] Not to mention the adherence to Ruby, which can only run on one CPU core. As a whole the program is so limited and constrained.

Well that's only partially true, and true of a ton of other languages too (including cult favorite Python): http://merbist.com/2011/02/22/concurrency-in-ruby-explained/

Honestly though, I'd love to know what you want with multiple cores (not that you can't do it) in a 2d game, because I've squeezed thousands of physics particles out of one core with no problem in Flash (in software mode), and that's a plugin. Sure, by default, events can really cause problems fast in Ace's engine, but nothing's stopping you from optimizing it–people already have.

 

[Ratty524]

But RPG Maker is improving. More and more people are making beautiful games, and the gamescape for the engine is raising the bar to higher heights. There have been more great games made in the past couple of years, I believe, than ever before. It's because people are grabbing hold of the engine, but trying to push past its limits and create truly innovative games.

Actually, considering there were people who were able to pull off side-scrolling shooters and zelda-like battle systems even in the RM2k days (don't ask me how with that engine...), I say the average types of games being produced with RPG Maker hasn't really changed much. It's just that people outside of our bubble are finally taking notice.

 

[Archeia]

The problem here isn't Ruby. The problem is that RPG Maker doesn't utilize Ruby at its fullest (e.g. Gems). Ruby 2.x.x is decently fast. I don't think the RTP is ugly either. As an art form they did a lot of things right (and a lot of things wrong for XP) but otherwise, they do require some skill to make especially working with the engine limitations.

 

[crimcrim]

Scratching my head here; I understand being sick of the RTP, but saying it's bad? The art is pretty good, and knowing that they had to work with 32x32 restrictions, resulting in weirdly placed shadows on some tiles, they did pretty well.

I can't really give an un-biased opinion because of how much I've been exposed to it but the art itself is lacking. I remember going through it with a close friend and being in complete awe at the amount of colors one tile possessed. The art I, and other people, do for my game has is done in a 16x16 grid and still somehow looks better (in my opinion); but then again that could just be the fact that I've seen the RTP so many times.

Well that's only partially true, and true of a ton of other languages too (including cult favorite Python): http://merbist.com/2011/02/22/concurrency-in-ruby-explained/

Honestly though, I'd love to know what you want with multiple cores (not that you can't do it) in a 2d game, because I've squeezed thousands of physics particles out of one core with no problem in Flash (in software mode), and that's a plugin. Sure, by default, events can really cause problems fast in Ace's engine, but nothing's stopping you from optimizing it–people already have.

Those languages aren't exactly the most commonly used when it comes to game development. When you hear 'GAME DEV PROGRAMMING' most people jump to C# or C++ almost immediately.

Technology is changing and almost everyone has a multi-core CPU. If RM and Ruby stop supporting it then they will both be left behind eventually. Sure, that might take a while; but why use dated hardware when there's something more modern and accessible?

Also if you ever want to 'tweak' (heavily optimize) RM you do need multiple cores. For example, the infamous mode7 or even full-screen in Windows 8. The latter is severely broken and requires heavy modifying.

 

[Galenmereth]

When you hear 'GAME DEV PROGRAMMING' most people jump to C# or C++ almost immediately.

Also if you ever want to 'tweak' (heavily optimize) RM you do need multiple cores. For example, the infamous mode7 or even full-screen in Windows 8. The latter is severely broken and requires heavy modifying.

EVE-Online, the largest one-realm MMO (and one of the longest running) uses python (stackless python). Minecraft was made in Java, and a ton of indie games are. Let's not fool ourselves; you can't make "AAA" games in RM, but then no indie team can, regardless of engine.

And like I linked, you can do multithreaded programming in Ruby 1.9.x, to an extent. Fullscreen in windows 8 has nothing to do with the amount of cores in use, unless windows 8 really is as bad as I've heard it is...

It is of course 100% true that there are limits to Ace's core engine setup. But from my experience, bad RM games do not even push the envelope on what you can do. It's not a one-size-fits-all engine. If you want a top-down 3d dungeon crawler, you're wasting your time using Ace. If you want a 2d rpg that isn't in hd resolution, then it should serve you exceptionally well, and with some work, most 2d games can be done in it.