Why is the RPG Maker name so hated?

[crimcrim]

EVE-Online, the largest one-realm MMO (and one of the longest running) uses python (stackless python). Minecraft was made in Java, and a ton of indie games are. Let's not fool ourselves; you can't make "AAA" games in RM, but then no indie team can, regardless of engine.

And like I linked, you can do multithreaded programming in Ruby 1.9.x, to an extent. Fullscreen in windows 8 has nothing to do with the amount of cores in use, unless windows 8 really is as bad as I've heard it is...

It is of course 100% true that there are limits to Ace's core engine setup. But from my experience, bad RM games do not even push the envelope on what you can do. It's not a one-size-fits-all engine. If you want a top-down 3d dungeon crawler, you're wasting your time using Ace. If you want a 2d rpg that isn't in hd resolution, then it should serve you exceptionally well, and with some work, most 2d games can be done in it.

Alright fair enough to your first point.

I'm not programmer but Fullscreen is broken in windows 8 and fixing it requires the use of more than one core to actually work.

And I have to disagree with your last statement. I am making a simple 2d RPG and I cannot use RPG Maker. It is way too forced in some of its features and work around aren't even an option at this point.

 

[Galenmereth]

And I have to disagree with your last statement. I am making a simple 2d RPG and I cannot use RPG Maker. It is way too forced in some of its features and work around aren't even an option at this point.

May I ask what it is you're trying to make that won't work with Ace?

 

[Celianna]

I can't really give an un-biased opinion because of how much I've been exposed to it but the art itself is lacking. I remember going through it with a close friend and being in complete awe at the amount of colors one tile possessed. The art I, and other people, do for my game has is done in a 16x16 grid and still somehow looks better (in my opinion); but then again that could just be the fact that I've seen the RTP so many times.

You ... you do realize VX/Ace RTP isn't pixel art, right? Of course they'd have a million colours - that's because it's not done pixel per pixel, it's brushed artwork. And the discussion is clearly not about XP's RTP, since that's not the predominant used maker on these forums (especially since it's Ace games that appear on Steam that get negative feedback).

 

[Titanhex]

You ... you do realize VX/Ace RTP isn't pixel art, right? Of course they'd have a million colours - that's because it's not done pixel per pixel, it's brushed artwork. And the discussion is clearly not about XP's RTP, since that's not the predominant used maker on these forums (especially since it's Ace games that appear on Steam that get negative feedback).

Actually that's only partially true.

There's pretty strong evidence that the Environment is done in brush and the characters and animals are done via pixel.

However, this mainly shows that the two styles can work seamlessly together.

There's a lot of other things that go into style than just is it done in brush, and is it done per pixel.

And I'm sure Celianna is aware of that.

The RTP for VX was disliked the moment people saw it for similar reasons LoZ: Wind Waker was disliked the moment people saw it.

But that doesn't mean it's bad artwork, or that games made in it are bad.

However, if every game in 2014 came out looking like Wind Waker people would probably start getting sick of it.

 

[Shion Kreth]

EVE-Online, the largest one-realm MMO (and one of the longest running) uses python (stackless python). Minecraft was made in Java, and a ton of indie games are. Let's not fool ourselves; you can't make "AAA" games in RM, but then no indie team can, regardless of engine.

And like I linked, you can do multithreaded programming in Ruby 1.9.x, to an extent. Fullscreen in windows 8 has nothing to do with the amount of cores in use, unless windows 8 really is as bad as I've heard it is...

It is of course 100% true that there are limits to Ace's core engine setup. But from my experience, bad RM games do not even push the envelope on what you can do. It's not a one-size-fits-all engine. If you want a top-down 3d dungeon crawler, you're wasting your time using Ace. If you want a 2d rpg that isn't in hd resolution, then it should serve you exceptionally well, and with some work, most 2d games can be done in it.

I don't normally take a stance on the other side of the fence, but from my perspective I think it just boils down to that if you've got the kind of programming skills needed to build a game engine from the ground up.. it's just more appealing to do so and have everything exactly how you want without rpgmaker imposing any limitations, rather than trying to continually alter and optimize rpgmaker to make it how you want.

Personally, I also think it's enough for most any 2d rpg, but still... sometimes it's exceptionally difficult to work with and limited when you're trying to produce specific effects, then other times I'm so surprised by what people have managed with it. I guess it just depends on what specific features are of central importance to someone, and which features they can compromise on. Personally the low resolution and pc-exclusivity hurt my soul, but not being a programmer I won't be able to produce something as robust without rpgmaker.

Also just as a side note on windows 8, I wasn't aware there was a problem; I play fullscreen rpgmaker games on my girlfriend's windows 8 laptop all the time without incidence.

 

[Shelby]

<snip>

And RPG Maker is terrible. It's a good stepping stone towards making better-quality games, but if the best "quality" game that you can put out is something like Star-Stealing Prince, Legionwood, or any other famous RM games, then of the real-world, you're just slightly below average. Most people would rather spend $60 on something with limited functionality than something that costs $1500 that allows you to do anything, mostly because people want things handed to them on a silver platter. That's just the way the world works.

I hate the RTP. I absolutely despise the RTP. But I still use it as placeholders because it's there for me to, you guessed it, placehold something. That's ALL it's supposed to do.

Also bugs are in every game. You have lockups on your consoles all of the time because something didn't initialize right or an improper rule was broken. Why do you have to say that for RPG Maker?

RPG Maker has a pretty small programming language with certainly a lot of functions, but, when compared to something like C or Java, makes Ruby look like an ant in comparison to a lion.

Also, find me ONE review of "To the Moon" that says it was a **** game, because I haven't found it yet. "To the Moon" is not even supposed to be an RPG in it's own right; it's more of a Visual Novel, which goes to show the power of the RPG Maker Engine.

Yep Yep, hate it hate it hate it! I never buy any game that looks like it's all RTP and there are a lot of bad games on Steam and adloen whatever sites where people just rushed out a game to try and make money. The upside to this is I get to read the bad reviews which I LOVE to read and laugh at these "developers" that wasted time and money on fees and DRM.

It's a simple cheap system, that's why so many KIDS are using it to make games, it's fun I know but there is a big difference between doing something for fun and for money.

Now all that being said there are a FEW AMAZING rpg maker games out there for sale that redeem the name. Rainbow town of death is one of them. HOWEVER these are made by developers that do NOT spend their time on this site and probley never even heard of this place, so that is something to think about to.

Bottom line in a world where Microsoft is trying to punish gamers you better have your %^& straight if you wanna sell your games to people cause the gamers deserve better.

 

[Dalph]

Yep Yep, hate it hate it hate it! I never buy any game that looks like it's all RTP and there are a lot of bad games on Steam and adloen whatever sites where people just rushed out a game to try and make money.

Again, complain about the untalented developers not about the materials themselves.

RTP doesn't mean automatically bad, I'm so damn tired to be a parrot and repeat this everytime, it's all about game development skills.

Today people seems to forget that games needs also a storyline (and interesting characters) besides pretty graphics.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

I have to agree with Dalph. You could hand someone an instrument. It could even be a Stradivarius violin, but if they don't know how to play it, it's going to sound like a piece of junk. 

 

[The Forgotten]

Well, it's not just the price points of the Engines. Sure, as of recent the CryEngine and UE4 are much more affordable ($9.90/month and $19/month respectively). But that's still hiding the true cost. Those engines require teams, one person (or even 3 or 4) aren't going to be able to create a full game in any decent amount of time. A full HD model can take months (assuming the individual has a real job) to make alone. So, let's assume you can get a team of say 25. That dollar amount is per person. So you're looking at 250 to 450 a month in license fees. But no one works for free, people have to eat. So you're pumping out 450/month on a Hope that the game will sell more than just enough to recoup the expenses.

Starting off with a 3D development toolkit sounds dumb now.

I have a wife, 3 year old, and a baby on the way. I personally don't have the time or money to invest in a 3D toolkit to "take a chance" people will be interested.

Rpg Maker is a great tool to put together something over time and release a 2D game in a fraction of the time and cost to see how it would be received.

That's no excuse for atrocious games though. But there is also no excuse for knocking a game for the graphics (Final Fantasy 1 was very well recieved and it was 8-Bit) because you are spoiled by multi million dollar development companies and full 1080p graphics.

Good story, bad graphics = Fine

Bad story, bad graphics = Not OK

Bad story, good graphics = Not OK either, but acceptable by the masses because it's shiny and new

 

[Scythuz]

I have to agree with Dalph. You could hand someone an instrument. It could even be a Stradivarius violin, but if they don't know how to play it, it's going to sound like a piece of junk. 

Hand me one and I will make the best dying cats sound you have ever seen!

On topic: I feel like I've seen this discussion before many a time... People are bringing up the same points in each discussion.  Do we really need the same discussion again?

 

[SoulPour777]

You can't make AAA games in RM?

Some can. Corpse Party is one. You just can't, I suppose.

 

[Ashton]

One point that I'm not sure has been brought up: Most games are rather homogenous. (You have the same look and feel.) However, I feel if you take the time to implement proper visual scripts, you can set yourself apart from the shovelware and gain a few "points" just be being a little more creative (such as using the Busts script or a named-window script)

 

[C-C-C-Cashmere (old)]

Good story, bad graphics = Fine

Bad story, bad graphics = Not OK

Bad story, good graphics = Not OK either, but acceptable by the masses because it's shiny and new

I think you're improperly equating "good graphics" with "high fidelity graphics". Something can be low fidelity and still be good, is what you're trying to say. Low fidelity graphics would still imply that they can be "good". Plus, it's not all about story, anyway, it's about gameplay and a ton of other unseen factors too, like presentation or uniqueness, etc.

Bad story, good graphics is absolutely fine. I'd rather have shiny graphics than bad graphics. At least if the gameplay is somewhat polished. You can probably tell that story doesn't matter too much to me.

 

[The Forgotten]

I think you're improperly equating "good graphics" with "high fidelity graphics". Something can be low fidelity and still be good, is what you're trying to say. Low fidelity graphics would still imply that they can be "good". Plus, it's not all about story, anyway, it's about gameplay and a ton of other unseen factors too, like presentation or uniqueness, etc.

Bad story, good graphics is absolutely fine. I'd rather have shiny graphics than bad graphics. At least if the gameplay is somewhat polished. You can probably tell that story doesn't matter too much to me.

"Good" meaning it doesn't look like they took 20 different tile sets from 10 different places and mashed them together into one tile set. "Bad" can also mean loss of detail in the graphics by over/or under saturating them or cranking the brightness/contrast up/down too far.

8, 16, even 32-Bit graphics can be considered good when dealing with the retro aspect of SNES-Style game development.

My era was about the story, not the graphics. If a game was shiny, but seemed like it was written by an elementary schooler, it didn't do well. These days, you can make the graphics better, add a couple more characters/guns/cars/maps and people will eat it up. Of course, fans of games like that swear there are a billion differences between Call of Battle Duty Warfare 2 and Call of Battle Duty Warfare 3, or WWE Superstar Megawrestler 6 and WWE Superstar Megawrestler 7 Xtreme. To me, those games are fundamentally identical.

 

[Ashton]

Bad story, good graphics is absolutely fine. I'd rather have shiny graphics than bad graphics. At least if the gameplay is somewhat polished. You can probably tell that story doesn't matter too much to me.

I come form the exact opposite side of the spectrum (though dodgy mechanics can turn me off to a great story) one of my favorite games of all time was ZORK --- absolutely _NO_ graphics at all! To me, plot is my God. If the plot sucks, it doesn't matter how good the graphics or play-control is (unless I can use it to make a machinima) because you've killed all my interest. I'd rather play a game with a wonderful story that really moves me that has low-quality graphics, then a bland story with fancy, shiny, amazing graphics.

So keep in mind there are two sides to the coin.

 

[The Forgotten]

I come form the exact opposite side of the spectrum (though dodgy mechanics can turn me off to a great story) one of my favorite games of all time was ZORK --- absolutely _NO_ graphics at all! To me, plot is my God. If the plot sucks, it doesn't matter how good the graphics or play-control is (unless I can use it to make a machinima) because you've killed all my interest. I'd rather play a game with a wonderful story that really moves me that has low-quality graphics, then a bland story with fancy, shiny, amazing graphics.

So keep in mind there are two sides to the coin.

Good example is the controversial Final Fantasy 13 (and 13-2?), the graphics were awesome but the story was like... WTF? 

 

[Stridah]

I understand the RPG MAKER hate...

here are some reasons why.

• RTP is straight UGLY! Thats right i am an rpg maker developer and honestly i will not play an rtp game, the first time i saw rtp i thought it was ugly as all hell & after seeing a zillion screen shots and rtp games my feelings have grown worse about the rtp (EXCEPTION BEING XP RTP, I AM TALKING ABOUT VX & ACE).
• Tons of half ass games by people who are trying to get rich quick without putting any money or effort into their game.  I see it all the time on here people not commited to making their game who have put none of their own money or resources into development asking for kick starter money! Usually these people rage when more experienced forum goers tell them their game looks like crap and half ass, then remove the kick starter after only their mother and girlfriend have donated.

 

[Shelby]

Someone also made a good point awhile back about RPG maker now being on Steam, was this a good thing? Well it did make it better for more people to get I guess, then again it really let loose a flood of $%^ games more then even before and the many problems that come with that. So yea that is gonna add to the hate.

The story can be good, but I don't want to see Ralph as the main char 20 times! Get real people. Now all that being said I actually like the way the RTP looks, and even like a few RTP games. But of course I would never pay for one, don't wanna reward bad behavior.

 

[Vinedrius]

I understand the RPG MAKER hate...

here are some reasons why.

• RTP is straight UGLY! Thats right i am an rpg maker developer and honestly i will not play an rtp game, the first time i saw rtp i thought it was ugly as all hell & after seeing a zillion screen shots and rtp games my feelings have grown worse about the rtp (EXCEPTION BEING XP RTP, I AM TALKING ABOUT VX & ACE).

This comment is completely subjective and can't be served as a matter of fact as to why RTP is hated. I don't think RTP is ugly and thus I have no reason to hate RPG Maker because of the RTP graphics. See?

Tons of half ass games by people who are trying to get rich quick without putting any money or effort into their game.  I see it all the time on here people not commited to making their game who have put none of their own money or resources into development asking for kick starter money! Usually these people rage when more experienced forum goers tell them their game looks like crap and half ass, then remove the kick starter after only their mother and girlfriend have donated.

Agreed for the most part, but I still refuse to see how it should make RPG Maker hated. Hating a product just because there are abusive users is nothing but selective perception and doesn't really make sense other "haters gonna hate".

Now all that being said I actually like the way the RTP looks, and even like a few RTP games. But of course I would never pay for one, don't wanna reward bad behavior.

This is like saying "I like cigarettes of certain brands but I would never buy any because cigarettes are bad" I can't see how you would like something you think is bad.

 

[Galenmereth]

What it all boils down to is subjective opinion when it comes to the RTP, simply because it's art. Personally, as a graphic designer and decent enough pixel artist, I think the RTP is really good. Subjective opinion, of course. I happen to like the chibi style, and that helps. There are some tiles and objects that I'm not the biggest fan of, but it all fits together remarkably well. This is no easy feat, either.

When it comes to RPG Maker, from a programmer's standpoint, Ace is a solid product. Not without its faults, but it certainly does what it says on the packaging and more so. It's far from perfect, but complexity comes at a cost. With its limits come benefits, too, like minimum system requirements being very low by today's standards. Having said that, it might not be for you. That's just how it is.