Why is the RPG Maker name so hated?

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

yeah, as they say there will always be haters

 

[DavidGil]

Even games like Enelysion, Star Stealing Prince, and Altered Legend get hated on from time to time. I'm playing Sweet Lily Dreams now, and there's still plenty of spite against that game simply for being made in RPG Maker, and that game is professionally well done.

So we can stand here and talk about what causes the hate and what can be done about it. The problem is, with or without the amateur games, there's always going to be somebody who hates the engine and will voice that hate as loud as they can for nothing more than because it was made in RPG Maker. Sure, amateur games don't help, but they're not the sole reason. Heck, I've come across a few games on Steam that weren't made in RPG Maker, but that hasn't stopped people from accusing the game of being such. People who will hate will do so, and there's nothing you can do to get them to see beyond their own prejudiced bias.

The only thing you can do is to continue to have fun with the maker while you design the game as best you know how and ignore the worthless rants that are spatted from illogical people.

This is something I've said before, as the problem is with people. Regardless of the money poured into a project or how well polished it is (alongside how much custom content is used), a game will still get hated on.

It's really not worth worrying about and you certainly shouldn't think you have to invest a lot of money into a game. However, do it if you want to and it's within your means.

Ultimately, just make the best game you can and all that really matters is how you feel about it.

PS: Thanks for mentioning Altered Legend, by the way. I've heard of the others and have them downloaded, but this is the first time I've heard of that game. So, going to download it now.

 

[HeuGamer]

So we can stand here and talk about what causes the hate and what can be done about it. The problem is, with or without the amateur games, there's always going to be somebody who hates the engine and will voice that hate as loud as they can for nothing more than because it was made in RPG Maker.

The only thing you can do is to continue to have fun with the maker while you design the game as best you know how and ignore the worthless rants that are spatted from illogical people.

Love it. I worked in Unity for some time and no matter what almost everyone I know will stereotype it as "The Indie Engine" or some sort and can never produce AAA quality work, but there has been some great games made with it though! Same goes for RPG Maker, stereotyped and hated, yet some have been able to produce great games from it. In the end there will be someone who just hates!

 

[Zoltor]

People that bash the "RTP" are nothing but graphic whores, who don't really care about the quality at all, all they care about is, if It's shiny.

Now, what the "real" problem with RPG maker, is the limitations that should've never existed to begin with(thing like condition page options being forced on you, no even triggering option for equiping/unequiping stuff, not being allowed to customize windows as you see fit, ect), which thankfully scripts can fix.

In short, if someone were to make a RPG without the use of a single script/the scripts aren't utilized properly or fully(I hate when people add scripts, just to add scripts, and never use/customize them properly), the RPG would most likely be meh, and "definitely" have a sloppy feel to it.

Mind you, the scripts I'm talking about don't even "directly"  effect the game, they just expand uppon the development tools available for the developer, and in other cases, fully implement features that were only half ways implemented, so this way you can add those features, without the game feeling sloppy. Ofcourse then it relies on the developers to put the added development options open to him/her to good use.

 

[Tsukihime]

There is no game engine that provides everything you need and then some.


Some just provide better ways to allow you to customize the UI to suit your project's needs.


Unity's approach of extracting public variables associated with individual objects and adding it directly into the UI, for example, is an effective feature.

 

[Zoltor]

There is no game engine that provides everything you need and then some.

Some just provide better ways to allow you to customize the UI to suit your project's needs.

Unity's approach of extracting public variables associated with individual objects and adding it directly into the UI, for example, is an effective feature.

Oh yea ofcourse, also RPG Maker is great and all, I'm not saying otherwise, but there really are things that should've been in(and were in older versions in some cases), and some feature that weren't fully inplimented.

The need that exists for your Custom page condition script is caused by the most bonehead decision in RPG Maker history. RPG Maker for the PS1(which I think is just a port of the RPG Maker for the PC), not only allowed you to set any conditions you wanted(there were 6 blank slots, and clicking one made a drop down window full of options, so you can set as many of the same type of condition, you could ever need), but also had more options in general(Anything that can be set as a condition branch condition, could be set as a page condition. Since the condition branch options haven't expanded much over the years, feel free to look through ACE's condition branch options, and you'll have a good idea about how perfect the page condition format was back when RPG Maker was in its infancy).

 

[whitesphere]

I'll offer my $.10 (due to inflation):

I never purchased RPG Maker expecting to crank out a game and make a ton of cash.  I purchased it because I love classic RPGs and, although I am a good programmer, I wanted a program which gives me good basic graphics and sound to work with, and is flexible enough to create a complete game without me having to write a ton of code.    RPG Maker fits the bill for me, quite nicely.

Personally I am a huge fan of the versatility of the RTP.  And, the many inexpensive Resource Packs, many of which have the same look as the RTP.  These further expand what we as game developers can build.  However, these are merely tools.  It's what we do with them that counts.

If these critics look at the credits of any modern AAA game or even re-treads of professional, old-school 2D RPGs like Chrono Trigger for the DS, there is an awfully long list for a reason.   Big AAA name companies have the millions of dollars it takes to hire professional artists, musicians, programmers, writers, voice-over actors, testers and managers who ALL must work together to create a compelling game.  I think it's safe to say almost no RPG Maker developers have that kind of cash lying around.

Really, I think comparing RPG Maker made games with AAA games is just absurd --- they are completely different categories.  To me, the most important thing for an RPG is the game is fun to play, has an interesting storyline, and is well balanced --- challenging combat without being overpowering, logical puzzles, etc.  

I think the RTP has a bad reputation because there have been many "developers" who threw a game together without crucial polishing and playtesting.  The resulting "games" were buggy, or not at all balanced, and were a huge waste of players' free time. Keep in mind that free time is an even MORE important resource for players than money.  This understandably left a very bad taste in people's mouths.  

Now, if you have skilled game developers, they can make some amazing old school RPGs using the RTP and RPG Maker.  But, I don't think the RTP/RPG Maker combo by itself is ever intended to make AAA level games, in terms of graphics resolution or whatnot.  But I don't think that's the goal.  The goal is "Here is a good basic toolbox for building your own old school RPG"  It accomplishes this goal nicely.

 

[Ashton]

If these critics look at the credits of any modern AAA game or even re-treads of professional, old-school 2D RPGs like Chrono Trigger for the DS, there is an awfully long list for a reason.   Big AAA name companies have the millions of dollars it takes to hire professional artists, musicians, programmers, writers, voice-over actors, testers and managers who ALL must work together to create a compelling game.  I think it's safe to say almost no RPG Maker developers have that kind of cash lying around.

Really, I think comparing RPG Maker made games with AAA games is just absurd --- they are completely different categories.  To me, the most important thing for an RPG is the game is fun to play, has an interesting storyline, and is well balanced --- challenging combat without being overpowering, logical puzzles, etc.  

Not played the DS remake (though I did play both the original and PSX versions) of ChronoTrigger, but honestly, With a little work and a few additional tilesets it could easily be replicated in RPGM (discounting the soundtrack) People look back at games with rose-colored glasses and dont realize just how simple most of them were when you boil them down (thinking back the only thing I dont know how to do (and this is coming from a relative n00b) is the "battle on-map-screen" instead of launching a "battle screen" (and there's probably a script for that)

Seriously, think about most of the AAA games of the SNES era. Excluding one or two that incorporated really unique features (like Super Mario RPG, which mixed in a lot of actions like jumping on the map) and think about how, if you were making them in RPGM you'd do it. I think you'd all be suprised.

 

[Galenmereth]

You are seriously underestimating the complexity of Chrono Trigger -- or most Squaresoft SNES RPG's -- if you think they can easily be replicated in any engine. With a small team of ten? Perhaps in two years or so, if everyone is very experienced, has a couple of games under their belt and work well together. For one person? Try a handful of years of near daily work. I'm not exaggarating: balancing, animation, planning, story, testing, testing, testing, bug squashing, and on and on--this takes a LOT of time.

Making a game the scale of Chrono Trigger today isn't magically easier just because the entry point to making games is easier. Look around--there's still no game with the scale of Chrono Trigger being made by anyone, small indie team or huge AAA team alike. Let that sink in.

 

[whitesphere]

Not played the DS remake (though I did play both the original and PSX versions) of ChronoTrigger, but honestly, With a little work and a few additional tilesets it could easily be replicated in RPGM (discounting the soundtrack) People look back at games with rose-colored glasses and dont realize just how simple most of them were when you boil them down (thinking back the only thing I dont know how to do (and this is coming from a relative n00b) is the "battle on-map-screen" instead of launching a "battle screen" (and there's probably a script for that)

Could we re-create Chrono Trigger using RPG Maker?  Of course we could!  The engine is designed to create that style of game.  

Would it be extremely simple to do?  Absolutely not.  Let's see (since I recently re-played Chrono Trigger), we have probably dozens of dungeons from the first Cathedral dungeon, onward.  And, let's not forget creating, effectively, 5 completely different world maps.  Yes, there is definite overlap and re-use, between 600 and 1000 AD in particular.  But 60 million BC and 2300 AD have completely different map styles, worlds and enemies.

Then, don't forget the significant changes to the map in 12,000 BC...

There are probably at least a dozen separate boss battles, as well as quite a few cutscenes.  

So you're probably looking at creating no less than 250 separate enemies, with their independent stats, plus at least 60 different weapons, armors and items.  And creating a host of skills, including dual and triple Techniques.  Then, you're creating probably, at least 100 "maps" (a map can be a single room, or a dungeon floor).  And you're writing a LOT of NPC dialogue and making sure the slew of Switches are set right so NPCs appear when needed, say what is relevant and disappear when not present.  Chrono Trigger probably has at least 50 pages of NPC dialogue.

Now, once those are completed, comes the VERY painful task of balancing everything, so that at EVERY POINT, the game is challenging but fair.  This means testing a large variety of permutations, especially when you have all 7 potential PCs.    But, if anything major is overlooked, the game becomes unplayable.  A LOT of amateur RPG maker games skip this step...

And, add in the importance of pacing.  It's crucial to make sure the player doesn't feel bogged down --- are random encounters fairly brief?  But it's equally important the player doesn't feel rushed.  That's another balancing act which adds in to my previous paragraph.  This is another thing a lot of amateur RPG maker game developers forget.

Also, add in a decent variety of side quests, with their own set of event flags.

Now, if you are creating your own Chrono Trigger like RPG, please add in creating your own entire world, and a compelling story in the world.  Those will drive everything I just listed above.

This is why it takes so much effort to create a really good RPG, even using the RPG Maker toolkit.  And why it's so easy to either get discouraged, or to say "It's good enough" and release a game long before it's really ready.  

For example: my little tiny RPG for the contest has 15 minutes or so of playable content, yet took me 50 HOURS to get to that state.  And I've heard several posts from people who have indeed made full, say, 20 hour RPGs --- it literally took them YEARS to get just right.

It's rewarding to do, but it definitely takes a long time to make a really good RPG.  It's easy to make a crappy one, but Chrono Trigger is a good one, which is why people still play it.

 

[Clord]

Well, the name is so hated because of the tool is advertised towards little kids who then run around and ruin the name (Kickstarter.) They don't mean to, but they still cause it.


If we look at the real cause it is the business model, RPG Maker can be sold so cheap because of it tries to advertise itself to be for "everyone" no matter of skill level as long you can use computer and like to play games.


Though these problems start to slowly go away as the RPG Maker series starts to have more serious impact in the western market with good games in the market. As of now many probably view it as "shovelware" tool.

 

[Zoltor]

Could we re-create Chrono Trigger using RPG Maker?  Of course we could!  The engine is designed to create that style of game.  

Would it be extremely simple to do?  Absolutely not.  Let's see (since I recently re-played Chrono Trigger), we have probably dozens of dungeons from the first Cathedral dungeon, onward.  And, let's not forget creating, effectively, 5 completely different world maps.  Yes, there is definite overlap and re-use, between 600 and 1000 AD in particular.  But 60 million BC and 2300 AD have completely different map styles, worlds and enemies.

Then, don't forget the significant changes to the map in 12,000 BC...

There are probably at least a dozen separate boss battles, as well as quite a few cutscenes.  

So you're probably looking at creating no less than 250 separate enemies, with their independent stats, plus at least 60 different weapons, armors and items.  And creating a host of skills, including dual and triple Techniques.  Then, you're creating probably, at least 100 "maps" (a map can be a single room, or a dungeon floor).  And you're writing a LOT of NPC dialogue and making sure the slew of Switches are set right so NPCs appear when needed, say what is relevant and disappear when not present.  Chrono Trigger probably has at least 50 pages of NPC dialogue.

Now, once those are completed, comes the VERY painful task of balancing everything, so that at EVERY POINT, the game is challenging but fair.  This means testing a large variety of permutations, especially when you have all 7 potential PCs.    But, if anything major is overlooked, the game becomes unplayable.  A LOT of amateur RPG maker games skip this step...

And, add in the importance of pacing.  It's crucial to make sure the player doesn't feel bogged down --- are random encounters fairly brief?  But it's equally important the player doesn't feel rushed.  That's another balancing act which adds in to my previous paragraph.  This is another thing a lot of amateur RPG maker game developers forget.

Also, add in a decent variety of side quests, with their own set of event flags.

Now, if you are creating your own Chrono Trigger like RPG, please add in creating your own entire world, and a compelling story in the world.  Those will drive everything I just listed above.

This is why it takes so much effort to create a really good RPG, even using the RPG Maker toolkit.  And why it's so easy to either get discouraged, or to say "It's good enough" and release a game long before it's really ready.  

For example: my little tiny RPG for the contest has 15 minutes or so of playable content, yet took me 50 HOURS to get to that state.  And I've heard several posts from people who have indeed made full, say, 20 hour RPGs --- it literally took them YEARS to get just right.

It's rewarding to do, but it definitely takes a long time to make a really good RPG.  It's easy to make a crappy one, but Chrono Trigger is a good one, which is why people still play it.

Actually Chrono Trigger would be borderline extremely easy to make, and would take a lot less time to make then most RPGs.

The only thing that would be hard, is the tech system, and the weird targeting system in battles, because you'll need scripts for them.

Once you get that handled, It's a cake walk, very few dungeon maps exist in that game in general, no world map to speak of, no town maps, the maps the game does have, aren't complex at all, features that aren't fully implimented, very few side quests, simple puzzles, exc.

 

[Galenmereth]

Actually Chrono Trigger would be borderline extremely easy to make, and would take a lot less time to make then most RPGs.

The only thing that would be hard, is the tech system, and the weird targeting system in battles, because you'll need scripts for them.

Once you get that handled, It's a cake walk, very few dungeon maps exist in that game in general, no world map to speak of, no town maps, the maps the game does have, aren't complex at all, features that aren't fully implimented, very few side quests, simple puzzles, exc.

I'm going to be a bit blunt: have you made a complete game yet? Because while I don't want to be mean, what you are saying is very wrong. You're ignoring balance of all items and spells and everything else; the active time combat system with animations, dynamic player positions, and all of that; character battle animations--even if you did something illegal and ripped the sprites directly, you still have to implement it; free movement that plays well; a very different sort of tiling system (and no grid). The list goes on and on. It is certainly not impossible to make it in Ace, but borderline extremely easy? No. Don't devalue game development like that, because it's plain wrong.

 

[taarna23]

I'm going to be a bit blunt: have you made a complete game yet? Because while I don't want to be mean, what you are saying is very wrong. You're ignoring balance of all items and spells and everything else; the active time combat system with animations, dynamic player positions, and all of that; character battle animations--even if you did something illegal and ripped the sprites directly, you still have to implement it; free movement that plays well; a very different sort of tiling system (and no grid). The list goes on and on. It is certainly not impossible to make it in Ace, but borderline extremely easy? No. Don't devalue game development like that, because it's plain wrong.

I have to agree, here. I'm still trucking along with a long-standing project (which I'll be honest, it's 10x easier to process now that I have this strange thing called free time, as well as a recently-earned background in programming), and currently, I'm just trying to recreate the overworld map style done in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest. Gosh, that's a headache all by itself. Granted, I know squat about Ruby, and haven't the opportunity to learn now, as I'm trying to learn Angular and Bootstrap for work... But I start thinking about everything in Chrono Trigger, and even if you WERE to just use the existing graphics and such, the amount of work it would require is simply staggering.

 

[captainproton]

I have to agree, here. I'm still trucking along with a long-standing project (which I'll be honest, it's 10x easier to process now that I have this strange thing called free time, as well as a recently-earned background in programming), and currently, I'm just trying to recreate the overworld map style done in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest. Gosh, that's a headache all by itself. Granted, I know squat about Ruby, and haven't the opportunity to learn now, as I'm trying to learn Angular and Bootstrap for work... But I start thinking about everything in Chrono Trigger, and even if you WERE to just use the existing graphics and such, the amount of work it would require is simply staggering.

The trickiest part of chrono trigger would be all the divergent timelines.

 

[Zoltor]

I'm going to be a bit blunt: have you made a complete game yet? Because while I don't want to be mean, what you are saying is very wrong. You're ignoring balance of all items and spells and everything else; the active time combat system with animations, dynamic player positions, and all of that; character battle animations--even if you did something illegal and ripped the sprites directly, you still have to implement it; free movement that plays well; a very different sort of tiling system (and no grid). The list goes on and on. It is certainly not impossible to make it in Ace, but borderline extremely easy? No. Don't devalue game development like that, because it's plain wrong.

Yes, not as of late though, but that's because I wouldn't release a unfinished/half fast game like Chrono Trigger to beginwith. (Chrono Trigger, and Mario RPG are the most overrated RPGs of all time).

Oh yea, I knew I was leaving something out, balancing in a game like Chrono Trigger, is a non issue(not many items or enemies), and with many techs using 2 char, it makes things even easier to balance.

What, you mean just like a picture, instead of tiles? I'm pretty sure tons of people have been doing that, instead of making traditional maps in Ace(there aren't even a lot of them in the game, Square so went graphics over gameplay with CT).

To Captainproton: How is that hard at all, all it is, is eventing/story setup. I did something very similar to that in the original RPG Maker.

It's just utilizing event pages properly, that's all it is.

 

[Galenmereth]

You can call Chrono Trigger and Mario RPG overrated, and I have to somewhat agree in both cases: I'm not a particular fan of either. But if you're telling me either one is "easy to balance" and "easy to make", I'm just going to    Because they aren't. For all the things I could criticize in them, being small and easy projects--even with today's tools--is certainly not one of them.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Balancing a game, especially if ur gonna do it halfway thru or after you finish making the base version of the game, is extremely hard...

 

[Zoltor]

Balancing a game, especially if ur gonna do it halfway thru or after you finish making the base version of the game, is extremely hard...

That's why you start balancing things near the start(in RPG Maker user's case, deleting the default enemy stats/char stat gains at lv up, instead of trying to utilize them, is a good rule of thumb). After you get the first region made, and when you place your first boss, you should do the balancing before progressing any further.

Once you get things balanced in the beginning of the game, It's a lot easier to "keep" things balanced, as you have a base formula to calculate power progression off of.

 

[Solo]

Look around--there's still no game with the scale of Chrono Trigger being made by anyone

Ahem...