Why people think Rpg maker is limited

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ameer, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. Dreadshadow

    Dreadshadow Lv 38 Tech Magician Moderator

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    You can always nest Conditional branches one inside another, but it can be a hell of a spaghetti eventing I guess.
    I think there are script equivalents for that though. :/
    Code:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Oa0cRGpjC8L5JO8vdMwOaYMKO75dtfKDOetnvh7OHs/edit#gid=0


    Code:
    if (code) 
    { 
    stuff 
    } 
    else 
    { 
    stuff
    }
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
    #21
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  2. Dezue

    Dezue Love Ninja! Veteran

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    We switched from MV to another engine recently mostly for performance and workflow reasons, performance being the most important factor for us.
    At some point, MV just couldn't keep up with what we wanted to do - we did want a lot of stuff it wasn't designed for, though.

    Otherwise, it was very fun to work with it! I wouldn't say it's limited, I'd rather say it's specialized and tuned for a certain genre.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2019
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  3. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Dezue The image linking to your other game has been removed because first, it is not made with an RM engine, and we do not permit advertising such games here. Second, it is 18+ rating, and you have already been told you cannot post it here.

    Do not attempt to promote that game here again.

     
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  4. Dezue

    Dezue Love Ninja! Veteran

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    @Kes
    Actually, the game is made with RPG Maker, it even won the IGMC2017 Public's Choice award :D (That was the IGMC where only RPGM was allowed, I posted the direct link to the IGMC entry).

    Little edit: I don't mind you taking it down, just wanted to make clear that it's actually made with RPGM and we're pretty proud of what we've achieved with the engine.
    A lot of people didn't believe us, but it's true ;)
     
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  5. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Dezue I was going on your wording, which because it said
    appeared to link straight back to your comment that you had switched engines - there being no other game to which the word "that" could refer.
     
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  6. Dezue

    Dezue Love Ninja! Veteran

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    @Kes
    No worries and sorry for the confusion!
    We started making the game in RPGM and only switched after having demand for better performance, but there are still RPGM versions of Quidget floating around in the web (working fine on most people's computers, too).
     
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  7. Engr. Adiktuzmiko

    Engr. Adiktuzmiko Chemical Engineer, Game Developer, Using BlinkBoy' Veteran

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    If you dont have time to actually learn and do things, you can't blame it on the engine and suddenly call it limited.

    If we go by what an engine has by default then RM is way more than most commercial engines out there which dont even do anything at default. RM has a fully working database, a fully working map system, movement system, battle system etc. In that case, if RM is limited then all those other engines are on the useless side, but we all know that's not the case.

    Even just using the Eventing system can already do wonders if people put the time in it.

    Game making takes time, if people can't spend time on it, they shouldn't expect to be able to create something awesome. Sadly a lot of people who get RM thinks that they can use it to produce a game on par with what's on the market without putting much effort. Then when they realize it takes more effort than what they can give, they begin calling the engine "limited".
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
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  8. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    To be fair, the question was "Why people think RM is limited". I personally won't jump into the debate because the OP itself is already aware if it can be expanded. The question is like why common people/society thought this way. Unless if it's the OP that claims that RM is limited. The topic would be driven into a different direction.
     
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  9. LycanDiva

    LycanDiva Villager Member

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    Well, RM does have its limits...but so does any game engine. It's an engine optimized for the JRPG genre, so it won't make a side-scrolling shoot-'em-up or a platform game right out of the box, though with some clever coding, you can. Some very interesting horror and narrative games like The Crooked Man and To the Moon have been made with the engine, so even though it's mainly geared toward JRPG's, any story-driven, multi-ending, possibly puzzle-heavy kind of game can be made well with it. With enough time investment and the right skillset, RPG Maker turns out to be a very powerful tool.

    Will a fighting game made in RPG Maker be the next Street Fighter II? Probably not. But, AAA studios are not above trying to use an engine optimized primarily for one genre to make a game in a completely different one. The results can be mixed. Sometimes they do alright and sometimes...at the end of the day, their faces are very tired. Can we say those engines have limits too? Yes, they do. Is that bad? No. Because those limits are balanced out with strengths, just like the different character classes in an RPG. No matter how many stat-enhancing items you push on them, you (usually, unless you have some sort of system in your game where you can just make any character some sort of all-powerful lightning bruiser...) can't have a rogue who takes hits like a knight or a knight who can cast a fireball as powerfully as a mage.

    Another reason why the engine's limits aren't necessarily a bad thing is that it encourages the user to be creative with how they use what they do have. Some artists will take one good look at the limits of a 16-pack of Crayola crayons and go, "This is baby junk! You can't make anything good with that!!" However, I looked at those same crayons one day in my drawing class and said, "Let's see what these things can do in the hands of someone who can draw at a higher level." So, in the middle of class I experimented with the crayons, used different levels of pressure and blended colors to create different qualities of line, light, and shadow. I even managed to inspire some of my classmates to try the crayons out too and gave my professor an idea for a future assignment! And, you know what? Those crayon sketches turned out to be pretty good! So, along with creativity, to be able to get the most out of a tool in spite of its limits it also takes the courage and stubborn determination to even take the challenge on in the first place.

    Sometimes you'll end up with a surprisingly good crayon drawing for your efforts, sometimes you just end up with a tired face, but in trying to push your tools to their absolute limit, you learn both what they are capable of...and what you are capable of too.
     
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  10. Animebryan

    Animebryan Feels like I'm slowly dying! Veteran

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    The engine IS limited because there are certain functions that aren't possible by default. That is what makes it limited. Here's a list of limitations:

    Limited max map size: Ace's max map size was 500x500. MV's is 256x256 (Because the platform MV was made for has less processing power than the original platform, which makes you wonder why make the transition to a weaker device)

    Limited Battle Events: Battle events can't run Parallel Process like maps can, so you can't continuously check for conditions like states & such each turn without locking the game in a infinite loop. Also, battle events can't check for as many conditions as map events can.

    Randomly Generated Maps/Dungeons: Once a built in feature in RM2k3, the ability to have maps & dungeons randomly generate each time you enter is not possible by default yet the editor possesses this concept for creating new maps but only for the initial creation. While creating this effect is possible with plugins, no one has yet created a fully functioning version with all the bugs worked out. Having this feature adds tremendous replayability for a game.

    Action Battle System: You would think this should be possible though eventing alone, but yet some concepts simply can't be done by default. At least some form of plugin is required, either an entire system for it or certain event based plugins to add such functionality.

    Tactical Battle System: Another battle system that should be possible through eventing alone, but limitations keep you from developing such a system. In fact, plugins like Yanfly's Self Switches & Variables are necessary to keep track of various stats (variables) tied directly to each event (Unit HP, ATK, Movement, Ammo/Fuel, etc.). Also, by default you can't make a tile sized map cursor that let's you select a event (Unit) to control & are always moving a character. You also can't set mini-menus when selecting your units.

    Conditional Branches & Event Commands: Even though there are plenty of options for conditional checks, it doesn't absolutely cover every concept you can think of. For example, I was planning to make an item that directly gives the user Exp, but its not possible to apply the Change Exp effect to the user of an item through a common event. It was eventually proven possible using a script call to store the actor's ID in a variable & use that variable for the target, but the whole procedure is such a complex roundabout way instead of setting the target as user by default.

    There are other limitations as well but I don't have the time or patience to list every example, but you get the idea.
     
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  11. mathmaster74

    mathmaster74 just...John Veteran

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    People think RPG Maker is limited for two reasons: 1) It is, and 2) so is their thinking. When you go beyond the surface and really get to know something about game development and delve into RPG Maker and get creative juices flowing, there's little you can't accomplish with some ingenuity. I started out learning to use engines and asset design tools on a fifth-time-around at college a few years back and had an idea I pitched in one of my classes about a game where you're a zombie and you discover that..."Hey! I'm getting my faculties back as I eat more brains! Maybe this is why zombies eat brains!" The class went for a different pitch, so I started trying to make the game on my own in an engine I had learned to use at school. I found out it couldn't handle more than 20 duplicates of a prefab zombie event on the map...at least...not the way I was doing it. The whole project got derailed until February 19, 2019. That's right...under 3 months ago. On 2/19 I woke up and thought, "Wait! I've been working 3 years on a dating sim RPG in RMMV and it's been slow going. I wonder if I tried that zombie project in RMMV..." Nine-and-a-half hours later I had a minimum viable product ready. The opening map has the prefab zombie event with 43 duplicates running smoothly. The game released on Steam almost a month ago now. It even has Steam achievements which I had no clue how to implement until after Steam approved the project. I've put it on my mobile phone, and have discovered you can also configure RMMV games for gamepad! (All with the right plugins, so, yeah...the base engine didn't do it all, but...no engine does it all. For every complaint that you need a plugin for RPG Maker, my response would be..."Yeah, but don't you need to completely code that in that other engine too? I mean, unless it's physics or 3D graphics rendering?" Response: "Well, yeah, but...you still have to load in all of your assets. I mean...you're not going to go with the ones provided are you?" Reply: "All the engines I've worked with have limited stock assets at best, none at worst. Mostly engines are frameworks organizing projects in a hierarchical folder system with a way to preview and play test a project. You need to build everything from the ground up and import all of it, so why not use some placeholders at least if they're available?") :hhappy:
     
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  12. L.W. Flouisa

    L.W. Flouisa NumeroHex Veteran

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    I wouldn't say RPG Maker is limited, so much is ... like any good Narrow AI ... is exceptionally good at what it's designed for, but runs into problems when you start trying to extend it.

    For example, I like: Permadeath, Procedural Dungeon Generation, Persistent Story, Visual Novel elements, and an Active Time Strategy battle system.

    For a beginning developer, that's a bit ... much to back into something.

    Additionally: I'm on my fifth year of programming in Ruby, and I still find the syntax in RGSS to be extremely confusing for some reason.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  13. Marquise*

    Marquise* Veteran Veteran

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    I think the limitations here helps to have a narrow frame to use really focused as a canvas. Trying to focus on the important and learn to think outside the box once the learning curve of game-making reach a level. Also, if you like to use your own art, this is the perfect tool rather than being worried in 3D by many lighting, physics and collisions aspects.
     
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  14. Kaligath

    Kaligath Villager Member

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    This is coming from a newbie and i will give my input being that i am still in the perception of a newbie to creation tools but i must say at first glance it did feel very limited because well i cant do art and cant do music and merely have the assets that came packaged with the program.

    The thing is it does open up when you see things like plugins/scripts for instance and how there advertised say on youtube to enhance a project giving far more customisation.

    That is when people will learn being presented with the stuff that came packaged is great and all but to truly master game development you need to think outside that comfort zone of using those assets and use assets from outside even using photo editing programs to create purely original images that will make your game glow.

    The main problem i do see with other newbies i am also one to fall for this is the way it is advertised as anyone can make instantly a great game when i learned the hard way NO YOU CAN'T you must fail and fail and fail and fail some more and learn from all those failures till you make headway.

    I have already scraped 4 projects at the point but i am determined to make a game that i have always wanted to make. :D
     
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  15. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Kaligath Nowhere does Degica or Kadokawa say - or imply - that you can make a great game instantly. That would be a sheer impossibility, as everyone has to learn the engine and the skills needed, like balancing for example.
     
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  16. Marquise*

    Marquise* Veteran Veteran

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    There is never a EASY button. The assets and tools are there but ultimately you need some minimum of work to work it out then maybe replace assets and research scripts or plug-ins on-line.

    At least we have a great community to help an it is RPGM strength. We like to help each another.
     
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  17. Romanticist

    Romanticist Veteran Veteran

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    RPG Maker is very limited if you want to make action games, unfortunately. I'd love to be proven wrong; MV actually seems to have the most potential for 2d action games but still seems like you have to work around a lot of the editor's limitations. Example of the editor's limitations: you only have 48x48 tile blocks to use as collisions, with some 4 direction collision edges you can customize in the database. But you cannot break the tiles down smaller than that without using some scripts in an event afaik.
     
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  18. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    Or screw the default editor, just do all the code/database somewhere or even to use your own editor. But then that's against the EULA :D (Limited)
     
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  19. Sharm

    Sharm Pixel Tile Artist Veteran

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    Except it's not. Are you getting the engine EULA mixed up with the EULA for the resources?
     
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  20. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    You're right! I was getting mixed up. But at that point, you might as well as use different engine or make your own, and it isn't "made in RM" anymore.
     
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