Win Every Battle

Discussion in 'Game Mechanics Design' started by Wavelength, Jul 20, 2016.

  1. trouble time

    trouble time Bearer of the Word Veteran

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    I think it has more to do with save anywhere being default for rpgmaker so no one thought to bring it up cause they assumed it already workef tjat way
     
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  2. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    Well, a lot of the debate about it has been based around there being save points out there that you have to revert back to (which is really only a problem if you're using static save points instead of the Save Anywhere kind).  So, I asked because there was a few people assuming that's what they were using (static save points) and there wasn't a lot of "you can save anywhere" debate or suggestions.
     
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  3. trouble time

    trouble time Bearer of the Word Veteran

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    They might have been, I dunno every time I saw "set back" I thought it just meant set back to your last save, which if you're like me was "3 hours ago". I only saw save points mentioned a few times so I was assuming that people were talking about save anywhere when save points weren't mentioned.
     
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  4. KoldBlood

    KoldBlood Innovation from Limitation Veteran

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    I suppose another use for the mechanic could be in a comedy styled game with a focus on game play and story. I could see it being a running joke that the heroes can die and comeback over and over. You could even have them react after losing a battle like commenting: "I can't believe we were beaten by a level 1 rat! We suck!". If you wanted to go full 4th wall breaker you could have the characters aware that they are RPG Heroes in a video game and "can't die because they're the heros!" and could even get the enemy characters in on it with some banter between them over it.


    I think this would be a great way of tying the mechanic, story, characters, and game play all up into one nice package.
     
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  5. Dr. Delibird

    Dr. Delibird Veteran Veteran

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    I know that in the Borderlands series death not being perminents is both a mechanical and in world design choice but frankly it still feels cheap. Not as cheap as Fable 2/3 but still pretty cheap. Apart from ammo you rarely need to actually spend money and ammo can be found all over the map, maybe rocket ammo is the only thing I would say people really need money for (exception being rng of the vendor but that is a different story all together). So losing money on death, even in a game where you can't savescum, is probably not the way to go (unless a perfect currency balance is struck but I find that to be something mythical imho). Removing the traditional save mechanic (ie save slots that you load and save over) won't fix the issue of the player getting aggrivated enough to stop playing, in fact it intesifies because the player would be thrown DIRECTLY back into the game, no buffer peroid to get over what just happened to them and to get themselves together.


    I think the real issue lies in how failure is very obvious and in the forefront when it happens but victory is usually just a short little thing that isn't overly inspiring for the player. What I mean is when was the last time you one a fight in a game and you got super emotional (excited or whatever) about it? It would be very few and far between instances and it is those instances that should be looked at closesly and cross referenced to figure out what the common variable is and use that information to hopefully form a design principal that works for the scope (and ability) of an rpg maker game.
     
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  6. primeless

    primeless Villager Member

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    A halfway solution may be add some states to the fallen actors like "injured: half HP untill you recover" or "injured: 25% atk until recover". 


    add several of these states so a character can haver more than one, and let them stack together. 


    This way, a player can "fail" a fight (and retry it) and continue the adventure, but you dont really want this states to stack too much. Add some (expensive) items to remove them, and you have another layer of "strategy", as the player have to choose wich of this states wants to remove (and in wich actors).


    Just my 2 cents.


    P.D: Englis is not my nature language, so sorry for misspelling.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2016
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  7. Authumbla

    Authumbla Listen To My Soundcloud Fam? Veteran

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    One of the Prince of Persia games' Game Over screens consists of the narrator telling you "No, no, that didn't happen, back up a bit", as the game takes you back to the last save point, which I always thought was pretty cute even if doing it would be pretty clunky solution gameplay-wise most of the time.
     
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  8. TheRiotInside

    TheRiotInside Extra Ordinaire Veteran

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    It also comes down to how much immersion you are willing to break in your game. In a lot of RPG's, the battles themselves are in a way detached from the rest of the game itself anyway, and that's okay. You are (typically) whisked away to another screen, hurling fireballs, getting stabbed in the face repeatedly and shrugging it off. Then in a cutscene, you get stabbed and all of a sudden it's kind of a big deal. Everything revolving around battles I feel is generally accepted to be symbolic and separated from the narrative experience to some extent. There is almost always at least some degree of exaggeration or suspension of disbelief happening with some battle/stat/save mechanics, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.


    On the other hand, maybe it's just that way because it's easier and I'm so used to seeing it over the years that it feels natural. Maybe that was the point of the thread in the first place: to look at a mechanic taken for granted with objective eyes.


    I have seen some successful attempts at integrating death and resurrection into the narrative. Dark Souls comes to mind, where you are this undead/unkindled being who connects to bonfires and are revived at the last one you used upon death. You spent your souls (EXP) at the bonfires and upon death, the souls you currently had on you drop to the ground where you died. This gives the player some interesting choice, where they can slog their way back to it (usually required as you were probably trying to get somewhere when you died, meaning you'll be going back in that direction anyway) but if you wanted to, you could just abandon your souls and carry on. If you had a bunch of souls you didn't cash in, it got pretty intense trying to get them back too, since if you died along the way, a new batch of your current souls would drop there, removing the previous batch you were after.


    To reiterate my first point (if you could even call it a point) I guess I'm trying to say that if you can't both explain your death mechanics property with lore AND make the application tolerable for the player, I don't see a problem with a simple, narrative-removed game over and reload.
     
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  9. BigToastie

    BigToastie Veteran Veteran

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    I feel like it should be a mix.


    With my optional bosses, due to a morality system I use (when you lose fights you have a negative impact) - you dont get a game over, but come out of the fight (these boss are farmable).  I haven't thought about putting the same thing in normal fights, as generally some fights may be hard but you should rarely lose (especially in the earlier areas).


    I feel in optional areas further down the line, I may make it, if you lose a fight you are taken back to the start of the dungeon, but in the main quest line any loss is a game over.
     
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