woootbm's YT channel: hard critiques on RPG Maker games

[SGHarlekin]

God that was horrible... And the fact that those other effers deleted your review was petty and weak. Good to have seen another episode, though, keep 'em comin'!

 

[woootbm]

This game is somehow even more of a nightmare to witness than Radolf, let's be real here. The asset mismatch/mangling and the constant repeating sound effects would have made me legitimately nauseous if I were playing it myself - at the very least the default RTP doesn't give me a headache.

During the scoring we do talk a lot about the value of "effort," since Radolf looks like he spent a single weekend on the game and TTT spent more time than that. In retrospect, it does seem like all that effort only made the game worse. Like in my head I can imagine if I were forced to keep playing both of these games... Radolf would be tedious, but TTT would be both tedious and aggravating. And it's supposedly 40 hours long. Ugh! Sounds like pure torture.

I know Sturgeon's Law hits RPG Maker pretty hard, but I still can't imagine putting a game up like this (regardless of what engine it was made in) up for someone to buy it.

You mean you wouldn't be willing to pay the low low price of $20 for this? Don't worry, now it's 10! What a steal!

That's a fun adage, by the way. I don't think I've heard that one previously. It's definitely true. I'd say it's also true to some extent for professional games- 60% to 80% are a waste of time- but it's probably like 99.9% for RM games, I'd say. But I can be picky on other things, too. I'd say 99% of anime is trash, and 99.9% of (contemporary) music is trash, too.

Plus I'm always extra suspicious of any game that sells itself off as "comedy" due to how little faith I have in people to deliver actual comedy... like, in general.

I absolutely agree with this. I ended up cutting some long rants I went on about rules of comedy and joke structure because I doubt most people like this have any such understanding of it. Like they just think, "I make my friends laugh, I must be funny." Of course you make your friends laugh, that's why they're your friends; you're like-minded. Alcohol is probably involved, too.

I've been there, though. Not RM, but side projects with friends. I think people choose to do comedy because they're afraid to be taken seriously. It doesn't occur to them that comedy is hard.

I wonder if for EP6 since all you've played so far you've rated C or lower maybe you should do a highly rated well known game like Skyborn or something just so you don't burn out? Or so you can use it as a comparison point? Just a thought that came to mind at the end.

I've definitely considered this. I'm afraid that we'll do this and still give a relatively low score and people will decide, "Okay, these guys are just haters."

I've also been thinking about trying to figure out what the "golden age" of RM games is. I've been seeing nostalgia for some sort of bygone era so I thought it'd be fun to debunk that because come on. Walking simulator jump scares and stolen asset FF ripoffs? Without the benefit of rose-tinted glasses I'm gonna guess none of them would get an A, heh.

 

[Willibab]

Are you guys ***holes?

Yes.

Subbed.

 

[bgillisp]

That is a concern yes, though if nothing gets past C after a while that could be what people think anyways. Though it might help if you posted what the standards are too, so it is more clear (or did you and I missed it?). For instance, I use the following when I rate a game:

A: Game of the year candidate
B: Good game
C: Average game. Playable. Didn't like or dislike it.
D: Poor game. Has major issues with plot and game balance.
F: Unplayable. Usually these the bugs are so bad I couldn't finish the game at all, like CTDs that I can't get past, key events will not fire so plot cannot be continued, and so on.

I also do apply letter score penalties for bugs, so a really buggy good game can end up a C or a D even depending on how serious the bugs are.

Though I also use a slightly different version of this for Visual Novels as for those its all about the plot. Though IIRC I think you said you are not doing VNs so probably not needed to be considered then.

You mean you wouldn't be willing to pay the low low price of $20 for this? Don't worry, now it's 10! What a steal!

$10? For that? Guess I should sell my game jam game I made in 3 weeks for $25 then.

 

[TheAM-Dol]

Alcohol is probably involved, too.

So...what I'm taking away from this is that I should be drunk whenever I am developing my game. Noted: buy more alcohol.

I'm afraid that we'll do this and still give a relatively low score and people will decide, "Okay, these guys are just haters."

Honestly, Skyborn to me looks like the kind of game that launched at the right time and right place, I remember there was an era, I think early 10's where SqueeNix was moving away from turn-based, more classically focused JRPGs, and other JRPGs seemed to be MIA. I think this is why the original Bravely Default was successful because it was just a JRPG-JRPG kind of game in a time when they weren't so plentiful. Likewise, if I am correct about my timeline here, Skyborn launched during that time, so many folks hungry for a good classic JRPG latched on to Skyborn. This is total hearsay, I should clarify. It's just the vibe I get when looking at the game's store page that it's just a well-crafted "RPG Maker game", but maybe not much more beyond that.

However, it might not be a bad idea to try out some of the other popular ones: recent releases such as Omori or Symphony of War (Symphony of War coincidentally being made by the same dev as Skyborn), or you can even rewind to OneShot. The problem is - especially with Omori and Oneshot - these have fairly dedicated fanbases and if my reviews have taught me anything: No matter how hard or soft you deliver your criticism, if the fans sniff hate for something they love, they will let you know.

Spoiler: *cough*

I wouldn't let that stop you (in fact, position yourself right and you might attract some new viewers to your channel too), but I would be prepared for a potentially higher-than-normal disliked video.

 

[bgillisp]

@TheAM-Dol : Oh yes. I have taken crap for daring to say Skyborn is not a perfect game, the nirvana of RPGMaker games. Heaven forbid one dares to critique it.

 

[RCXGaming]

You mean you wouldn't be willing to pay the low low price of $20 for this? Don't worry, now it's 10! What a steal!

Bro, I don't even buy assets until they're on sale for less than 10 dollars.

That's a fun adage, by the way. I don't think I've heard that one previously. It's definitely true. I'd say it's also true to some extent for professional games- 60% to 80% are a waste of time- but it's probably like 99.9% for RM games, I'd say. But I can be picky on other things, too. I'd say 99% of anime is trash, and 99.9% of (contemporary) music is trash, too.

Tvtropes taught me it was a term that exists.

I've been there, though. Not RM, but side projects with friends. I think people choose to do comedy because they're afraid to be taken seriously. It doesn't occur to them that comedy is hard.

... Is... is this the reason everyone's trying to do the sardonic "Marvel Humor" thing nowadays? Because I know for a fact there's a lot of people who are afraid of being genuine just because they don't want to be made fun of themselves.

I've definitely considered this. I'm afraid that we'll do this and still give a relatively low score and people will decide, "Okay, these guys are just haters."

I've also been thinking about trying to figure out what the "golden age" of RM games is. I've been seeing nostalgia for some sort of bygone era so I thought it'd be fun to debunk that because come on. Walking simulator jump scares and stolen asset FF ripoffs? Without the benefit of rose-tinted glasses I'm gonna guess none of them would get an A, heh.

Far as I can see, nobody's getting past a C on your grading scale unless they minmax every aspect of their game to be the best the industry can provide.

Given that RM developers usually wind up being some dude in their closet with no budget or formal training/practice in game design, we have a better chance of winning the lottery twice in a row.

Honestly, Skyborn to me looks like the kind of game that launched at the right time and right place, I remember there was an era, I think early 10's where SqueeNix was moving away from turn-based, more classically focused JRPGs, and other JRPGs seemed to be MIA. I think this is why the original Bravely Default was successful because it was just a JRPG-JRPG kind of game in a time when they weren't so plentiful. Likewise, if I am correct about my timeline here, Skyborn launched during that time, so many folks hungry for a good classic JRPG latched on to Skyborn. This is total hearsay, I should clarify. It's just the vibe I get when looking at the game's store page that it's just a well-crafted "RPG Maker game", but maybe not much more beyond that.

I don't want to be that guy (especially since that's @woootbm 's job and I want to be the least mean person in the thread ), but when I saw there was noticeable RTP in the game's screenshots I was taken out of it?

It's bizarre. I usually don't think much about RTP until the game has a price tag around it, and I don't feel it'd be much to demand that the game has a fully original (or at least store-bought??) tileset if you're confident enough to sell it on Steam.

However, it might not be a bad idea to try out some of the other popular ones: recent releases such as Omori or Symphony of War (Symphony of War coincidentally being made by the same dev as Skyborn), or you can even rewind to OneShot. The problem is - especially with Omori and Oneshot - these have fairly dedicated fanbases and if my reviews have taught me anything: No matter how hard or soft you deliver your criticism, if the fans sniff hate for something they love, they will let you know.

Spoiler: *cough*

View attachment 256168

I wouldn't let that stop you (in fact, position yourself right and you might attract some new viewers to your channel too), but I would be prepared for a potentially higher-than-normal disliked video.

OMORI might not stand too good a chance here, given all of the complications I've heard about its gameplay...

 

[woootbm]

That is a concern yes, though if nothing gets past C after a while that could be what people think anyways. Though it might help if you posted what the standards are too, so it is more clear (or did you and I missed it?). For instance, I use the following when I rate a game:

A: Game of the year candidate
B: Good game
C: Average game. Playable. Didn't like or dislike it.
D: Poor game. Has major issues with plot and game balance.
F: Unplayable. Usually these the bugs are so bad I couldn't finish the game at all, like CTDs that I can't get past, key events will not fire so plot cannot be continued, and so on.

I also do apply letter score penalties for bugs, so a really buggy good game can end up a C or a D even depending on how serious the bugs are.

Though I also use a slightly different version of this for Visual Novels as for those its all about the plot. Though IIRC I think you said you are not doing VNs so probably not needed to be considered then.

We sorta talk about the grading on the first episode. I think your lettering system is fairly close. We're definitely giving F's to games that can be completed, though. I think we see C being of higher value, A is not quite that strong.

When it comes to bugs... I tend to draw more attention to the obvious ones, especially if they are easy fixes. I don't expect a one-man team to perfectly polish every pixel, so we generally don't go bug hunting. When we find bugs it's usually stuff that slapped us right in the face. I think this is fair for the "average user" perspective.

VN's will probably never get covered. Unless they have pretty heavy sim gameplay stuff. The other problem is that I feel like there's a pretty narrow range of subjects that VN stories can be, and those types of stories are not my thing. I also have this fear that a VN will just be the same level of incompetency but with the extra laziness of not bothering to do game design.

Honestly, Skyborn to me looks like the kind of game that launched at the right time and right place, I remember there was an era, I think early 10's where SqueeNix was moving away from turn-based, more classically focused JRPGs, and other JRPGs seemed to be MIA. I think this is why the original Bravely Default was successful because it was just a JRPG-JRPG kind of game in a time when they weren't so plentiful. Likewise, if I am correct about my timeline here, Skyborn launched during that time, so many folks hungry for a good classic JRPG latched on to Skyborn. This is total hearsay, I should clarify. It's just the vibe I get when looking at the game's store page that it's just a well-crafted "RPG Maker game", but maybe not much more beyond that.

I think there's a lot to what you're saying here. Skyborn predates both Steam Direct and Steam Greenlight as well. It also got pretty heavy discounts and I got in a Humble Bundle for like $10 (with a million other things).

The problem is - especially with Omori and Oneshot - these have fairly dedicated fanbases and if my reviews have taught me anything: No matter how hard or soft you deliver your criticism, if the fans sniff hate for something they love, they will let you know.

Tony actually wants this kind of thing to happen

I can't believe that defense of League of Losers. What tactics game are these people playing where you only control one character and all he can do is punch within one square? The gameplay he's describing sounds like a point and click. Nonsense!

@TheAM-Dol : Oh yes. I have taken crap for daring to say Skyborn is not a perfect game, the nirvana of RPGMaker games. Heaven forbid one dares to critique it.

I should probably just come out and say I already played the game years ago. I was doing so to research what RPGMaker could do, scope out the competition and stuff. Spoilers: I'd probably give it a C.

... Is... is this the reason everyone's trying to do the sardonic "Marvel Humor" thing nowadays? Because I know for a fact there's a lot of people who are afraid of being genuine just because they don't want to be made fun of themselves.

I am kinda guilty of this, too, maybe. My MC in Oni Sellsword is sarcastic and all, although I tried to play this as a double-edged sword: she's closed off, defensive, and pushes people away. Anyway, the main thing I want is that the story itself is not sarcastic. The characters still need believable motivation, the goals of characters should be clear, and the story needs stakes with grounded consequences both positive and negative.

Far as I can see, nobody's getting past a C on your grading scale unless they minmax every aspect of their game to be the best the industry can provide.

Given that RM developers usually wind up being some dude in their closet with no budget or formal training/practice in game design, we have a better chance of winning the lottery twice in a row.

I would say IN THEORY an A should be possible. Both Tony and I are no strangers to chintzy RPG's of bygone eras. He's even replaying Icewind Dale at the moment and has talked about his strange love of FF8. I played and loved some wack RPG's that came out on the Mac in the 90's, and really dug Wasteland 2 and the recent Shadowruns. My own tinkering in the engine gives me a lot of hope because I can see that it's possible to do a lot of cool stuff; I've been getting pretty high on my own jank I've been working on!

As far as what's actually out there? It's tough. I've talked with Tony offline about how there's this upper boundary of skill/budget where any good dev would feel forced to move on to a "real" engine (something like "As soon as you have more than 5 dev's and ~$10k, drop RM). I hope there's some dev out there who just doesn't have the programming skill or the friend network and is really good but is stuck with RM, because that's where I'm at. But I think those games never get completed

OMORI might not stand too good a chance here, given all of the complications I've heard about its gameplay...

It's on my radar, of course, especially since it's on gamepass now. I'm not so big on Earthbound-likes or depression simulators, though.

 

[TheAM-Dol]

Tony actually wants this kind of thing to happen

I do just want to make sure it's perfectly clear: that person responding to me was not the developer, just an overly passionate fan. And that's the kind of stuff you might have to deal with if you dare to dislike any game with a strong, passionate fanbase (such as Omori, OneShot, Skyborn)

 

[woootbm]

Hey all, another dev log! This time I'm just showing off some mapping and talking about the process:

 

[Cythera]

Are you guys ***holes?

Yes.

Well, I find you guys funny; does that make me one too?

Anyways, I have a sacrifice - I mean offering - I mean game! Ah-hem. A game, if you want to review it. Link's in my signature below.
I'll take what you got, so long as it's useful feedback ^-^
And please, if you choose to review my game, do not mess with the 'www' or 'save' folders in the download. Had a video review do that and then got agitated with me when things didn't work properly ._.

 

[woootbm]

@Cythera Awesome! Looks promising! I'm editing the current episode, and there will be another dev log after that. But you'll be first on the chopping block- uh, the queue after that

 

[ATT_Turan]

I don't want to be that guy...but when I saw there was noticeable RTP in the game's screenshots I was taken out of it?

It's bizarre. I usually don't think much about RTP until the game has a price tag around it, and I don't feel it'd be much to demand that the game has a fully original (or at least store-bought??) tileset if you're confident enough to sell it on Steam.

I know this is a little behind, but I don't click into this thread all the time: I know this is just your opinion, but I don't like it

What's the difference between me buying 5 tilesets for $10 each and me using tilesets that are part of what I paid $80 for with RPG Maker?

And it's not like anything store-bought is unique either, if you've browsed enough RPG Maker materials you'll be able to recognize anything anyone uses.

Your statement comes off as "your game isn't worth money unless you spent (potentially high amounts of) money on it." Which I would disagree with, as I don't think having a large bank account is a factor of game design

I see many people's fully original artwork that I would never pay a dollar to experience in a game, I would much rather the RTP. At least that looks good and then it's down to how you use it to construct the maps.

 

[RCXGaming]

@Cythera Good luck, dude - these guys hold absolutely nothing back.

I know this is a little behind, but I don't click into this thread all the time: I know this is just your opinion, but I don't like it

What's the difference between me buying 5 tilesets for $10 each and me using tilesets that are part of what I paid $80 for with RPG Maker?

And it's not like anything store-bought is unique either, if you've browsed enough RPG Maker materials you'll be able to recognize anything anyone uses.

A few things:

• Store-bought can cover things that the RTP doesn't cover, which is a lot unfortunately if you're not going for a typical Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy-like. (Or even just settings that aren't "medieval fantasy".)
  • Of course when you see everyone use the same materials it's not unique. It's more the principle of using them, since it's one more step towards not being default.
• I brought it up as an option because obviously not everyone can afford $10k+ to pay Celianna or someone similar have a fully original tileset.

I don't even plan to use the store-bought tilesets (or character art) as permanent fixtures either, even they themselves will be replaced by unique art down the line no matter how much my wallet burns doing so.

Your statement comes off as "your game isn't worth money unless you spent (potentially high amounts of) money on it." Which I would disagree with, as I don't think having a large bank account is a factor of game design

I see many people's fully original artwork that I would never pay a dollar to experience in a game, I would much rather the RTP. At least that looks good and then it's down to how you use it to construct the maps.

I mean, it never cost me money to come up with good ideas for my games nor did I spend a cent making the sound effects I use for my UI or combat.

I am not even debating that RTP looks bad nor am I shaming people for using it, since there's already an entire thread for that and it's a well-traveled topic by now. Avery and them have shown off ways to make it look good with simple edits.

I have also gone on record of saying multiple times to use the RTP as a way to prototype how you want the game to look.

But the unfortunate reality of game development is that you are not good at everything. If you're not good at developing the game, you often have to pay someone to do it.

If you're not good at art/music, you often have to pay someone to do it for you.

The bigger your ambition is with your game, the more sacrifices you have to make. Only RTP can only go so far, especially when your game is being compared to other non-RPG Maker games. Which again is not unfair for people to make those kinds of calls.

 

[Cythera]

@RCXGaming I've watched the videos; they're actually nicer than I would be so....? The big thing is the feedback is actually constructive. That's what I'm after. And to see if I can find someone else is thinks I'm funny (low chance of that haha)

 

[woootbm]

What's the difference between me buying 5 tilesets for $10 each and me using tilesets that are part of what I paid $80 for with RPG Maker?

And it's not like anything store-bought is unique either, if you've browsed enough RPG Maker materials you'll be able to recognize anything anyone uses.

Remember in this particular case we're talking about Skyborn, which is something like $15 at full price.

The thing I want to add to @RCXGaming 's comment- especially since the original comment dealt with a store page impression- is that seeing a bunch of basic RTP tends to convey a lack of effort. Going asset shopping will get you stuff a lot of other people are also using (significantly less people, though), sure, but it's extra effort. For example, I've commented in the past that every time I see a game with default characters it gives me a bad impression. If the dev didn't even bother to put in the effort to use the character editor and come up with their own ideas, what DID they put effort into? I am made to guess "nothing."

It's worth noting that Tony- as early as 3 reviews in- was already getting tired of seeing/hearing the same assets. You have to imagine with the giant, never-ending deluge of RM games out there that the average user will encounter several of them. And they're gonna feel the same way when they reach that point.

I've watched the videos; they're actually nicer than I would be so....?

Whew, that's good to hear. Although I'm still worried that in this next one we don't give the guy a fair shake you'll have to see!

 

[ATT_Turan]

Store-bought can cover things that the RTP doesn't cover

Sure, but then you're also placing the restriction on the person to not necessarily be showing off their best map or one most relevant to the story, but one that happens to showcase a purchased tileset.

I mean, it never cost me money to come up with good ideas for my games nor did I spend a cent making the sound effects I use for my UI or combat.

That's...exactly what my point was. Making a good game is about having good ideas and implementing them well. Not about spending money to be using different tilesets from other people.

Obviously graphics matter and play a role in the quality of a game. But if we agree that the RTP isn't inherently ugly and it's possible to make good-looking maps using it, I don't see that it's fair to demand that other people should use 0% of it if they intend to have a commercial game.

Only RTP can only go so far, especially when your game is being compared to other non-RPG Maker games.

Except it's not, isn't the point of this channel specifically to review RPG Maker games?

For example, I've commented in the past that every time I see a game with default characters it gives me a bad impression. If the dev didn't even bother to put in the effort to use the character editor and come up with their own ideas, what DID they put effort into? I am made to guess "nothing."

That I can absolutely agree with. But I don't think it's comparable because you can use the included assets (that you did pay a potentially significant amount of money for) to make something in the character generator that's distinctly not one of the default characters. You would apparently agree that represents the creator putting acceptable effort into their game.

RCX's "demand that the game has a fully original (or at least store-bought??) tileset" means there's no degree of creativity or effort that would indicate an acceptable effort. Only money (or, obviously, time if the creator has the artistic abilities). I wanted to chip in with saying I don't think that's fair. I'm not expecting to change anyone's criteria for rating games, but I wanted the dissenting opinion to be voiced.

It's worth noting that Tony- as early as 3 reviews in- was already getting tired of seeing/hearing the same assets. You have to imagine with the giant, never-ending deluge of RM games out there that the average user will encounter several of them. And they're gonna feel the same way when they reach that point.

I understand that aspect of it, too. But, then, the average Steam user isn't going to be specifically hunting down solely RPG Maker games like you're doing for your channel. They're going to be evaluating them amongst all other games that they come across on Steam according to whatever criteria they're using.

That seems vaguely like saying "I'm going to dedicate this to critiquing FPS games. Man, it's dumb that yet another one has you holding a weapon in front of the camera."

Remember in this particular case we're talking about Skyborn, which is something like $15 at full price.

Which is something like 25% the cost of a professional game. For a fraction of the cost, surely you have decided upon areas where you have lower (even a fraction of the?) standards.

Anyway, I'm not trying to derail your thread or sway anyone's opinion, I just felt the need to comment on that.

 

[woootbm]

That's...exactly what my point was. Making a good game is about having good ideas and implementing them well.

This is true, and I always hope for this to be the case. It's much harder to showcase a good idea in a screenshot than it is fancy tiles/busts.

I don't see that it's fair to demand that other people should use 0% of it if they intend to have a commercial game.

For me, at least, it doesn't have to be 0%. Even triple A games will have recycled assets here and there. How high a percent I'd like to see non-RTP will change based on the game's price. And if they can make a good impression with other things I'll notice the RTP less.

Except it's not, isn't the point of this channel specifically to review RPG Maker games?

So far. But we are grading them compared to all games, not just other RM games. This is why it gets so harsh: competing against the entire game market is brutal! And that's what you are doing when you charge money for your game.

That seems vaguely like saying "I'm going to dedicate this to critiquing FPS games. Man, it's dumb that yet another one has you holding a weapon in front of the camera."

Good example. In the last couple years, Doom-modders have boldly started selling their games on Steam since the Doom engine is open source. Now, the big difference is that the game assets are NOT "open source" so these dev's are forced to replace everything. But imagine if they weren't? Yes, I'd be sick of seeing the same pistol making the same pistol sound shooting the same imps.

Hell, there are Doom engine games I already dislike because they follow the Doom formula too closely.

Which is something like 25% the cost of a professional game. For a fraction of the cost, surely you have decided upon areas where you have lower (even a fraction of the?) standards.

The indie market is incredibly competitive, though. Undertale is $10. Ori and the Blind Forest is $20. Hades is $25. Vampire Survivors is $5 (which is likely cheap because of how much stock assets it uses).

Anyway, I'm not trying to derail your thread or sway anyone's opinion, I just felt the need to comment on that.

Oh, whoops. I should probably stop, too I can't help it! It's a topic that's always gonna spark debate and I feel pretty strongly about it.

 

[woootbm]

A new review is here!



Got pretty click-baity in the title, but I think it makes sense especially as we compare the characters.

Anyway, this week has a sub-topic of covering the idea of remaking an RM game since this dev decided to do that almost immediately after releasing the game.

 

[RCXGaming]

A new review is here!



Got pretty click-baity in the title, but I think it makes sense especially as we compare the characters.

Anyway, this week has a sub-topic of covering the idea of remaking an RM game since this dev decided to do that almost immediately after releasing the game.

That's one where I wouldn't have noticed if they changed between VX Ace and MV other than the bare essentials, unfortunately. Twenty dollars for this is like, insane though. At least give me more things to do than the most basic RPG tropes.

Re: Remaking games -

While I'm 100% in agreement that you should always be making more new projects instead of remaking old ones, I had to remake a game of mine from VX Ace to MV recently.

Turns out @TheAM-Dol couldn't play my game at all (as in permanent hardlock at the title screen) due to a fundamental issue with how his computer handled VX Ace games (or something in my eldritch monster of a script set-up went wrong and I can't just get rid of it).

So it got me thinking: I should probably upgrade.

VX Ace is very old and runs on Ruby, so it's mainly a Windows-only thing. MV can be played on different systems like Mac and mobile (for what it's worth), so it already expands a prospective audience since they don't need to download some janky extra programs just to play my game.

It's extremely practical for me because if my MV experiments go well (and they have!), I can continue making games in MV. (Which is great because I can expand the screensize beyond the dumb 640*480 limit of VX Ace)

It also gives me a reason to further flesh out the content that existed in that one game.

Besides that I largely view upgrading from one RPG Maker to another to be pretty superfluous, especially if the dev doesn't do anything with scripts or even just change the screen size.